307 réponses à ce sujet

[Lathaon]

Well, I'm glad to know this has been answered, even if it's not a confirmed "yes".



I do think the quantity of quest and standalone mods is lacking, but those I have played have been good quality. I actually really like the DA:O toolset. It would be far from as usable without the wiki and the forums of course, but as is it's powerful and pretty easy to use once you know what you're doing. In fact my main complaints about it would be the length of time lightmapping takes, and the sliders. When I click a slider and hold, I want the slider to move with the mouse and not stop if I go too fast and the mouse is no longer on the little bar. Minor complaints, are they not? In my opinion, it's the best toolset I've used. If it could eventually work for DA2 as well, that's excellent news.



I'd also like to add that I'm working on a standalone mod currently.

[TheMadCat]

AmstradHero wrote...


There are quite a lot of modders working on projects, it's just that projects take time. Compare to NWN1/2 ten months after release - they didn't have a lot of decent quest modules available at the equivalent time, and the toolsets and games had a lot less complexity, and expectations of mods were a lot lower. People expect/demand high quality content from modders, and that takes time.

That's my point though, Origins toolset is overly complex and several aspects of it are either buggy or completely broken and there is zero evidence to support the notion that BioWare will improve upon those faults as they've yet to do much of anything up to this point. Many of the Oblivion/Fallout 3 modders who were looking to get into modding Origins have said screw it simply because it requires much more effort and frustration then the end product warrants. We're not going to see any substantial growth within the modding community as we saw with NWN, which came about solely because of the MP element.

I also don't see how DLC content is counteractive to the modding community. Players rarely say no to additional content, particularly if it's free. DLCs are BioWare's professional additions to the game, mods are community creations that provide extra content for those who want to add more to their adventures within the Dragon Age engine.

Even though it's indirect it's competition, more so for the modders then for EA/BioWare. People have a limited amount of time they're willing to devote to a game, especially a game they've had for around a year and have played dozens, if not hundreds of hours. So long as BioWare continues a steady stream of DLC, people will prioritize their time more on the DLC then on mods which typically are of much less quality.

I'd also really disagree with the argument that the design of a typical BioWare game doesn't mesh well with a modding community. How? We can add additional standalone campaigns set in Thedas, and we can create additional adventures within main campaign itself and even gain access to the flags that track the Warden's decisions so that it is possible to directly reference the main plot. That sounds like seamless meshing from where I'm sitting.

Quality difference is the biggest reason, which is something you can either mask or get away with completely in other games. It plays the same regardless of what happens, as you said a seamless mesh. Except when you get to the player content there is typically a massive drop in quality. Voice acting is usually nonexistent or flat out terrible, the story and narrative is typically bad, level design is usually noticeably worse then the professional counterparts. Ask people who don't use mods why they don't use them, more often then not the answer is they suck compared to the actual product, they don't care if it's free or not it has to meet their standards (Which are typically set by the product) in order for them to feel it's worth their time.

It's no different over at the Oblivion or Fallout 3 communities, with a few exceptions quest mods typically fall way short compared to graphic improvements, item packs, and mechanic overhaul mods. People want mods that either continue or improve the experience and quest mods really aren't capable of doing such and those that do take years to develop, which is a length of time I'm not sure Origins really has given the fact BioWare is looking to move on which in turn will cause the majority of the base to move as well.

I've said it numerous times before, and I feel like a broken record for saying it again: Modders and the modding community exist because of the support of the players.


We have a toolset and that toolset can be used to produce adventures. Sure, modders would appreciate some improvements to it, but it's not broken.  If players really want to see more mods with quests, companions, and adventures released for DAO and want to see a toolset and such mods for DA2, then they need to support the modders who are creating that type of content. If it's not being supported by the player base, why should BioWare dedicate time and money to support it?

The problem is there isn't a lot of support from the players. Why that is I don't really know, a guess is it's tied to the quality element I spoke about above. That coincided with the fact BioWare is pushing forward with the series I don't see a whole lot of support building up either. There needs to be mods that standout in order to capture the communities attention and gain there support and up to this point there hasn't been nor does it look like there will be any between now and the release of 2, which will pull a chunk of the community completely away from Origins as all sequels typically do.

I completely agree with everything you said in that quote right there but as I said I just don't see the community being that strong enough nor do I see it reaching a point where EA would look at the modding community as something they need to keep strong like Bethesda, Paradox, Stardock, GSC, Civilization series, etc in order to keep sales up or even improve the bottom line. 

[AmstradHero]

TheMadCat wrote...
Quality difference is the biggest reason, which is something you can either mask or get away with completely in other games. It plays the same regardless of what happens, as you said a seamless mesh. Except when you get to the player content there is typically a massive drop in quality. Voice acting is usually nonexistent or flat out terrible, the story and narrative is typically bad, level design is usually noticeably worse then the professional counterparts. Ask people who don't use mods why they don't use them, more often then not the answer is they suck compared to the actual product, they don't care if it's free or not it has to meet their standards (Which are typically set by the product) in order for them to feel it's worth their time.

Which again highlights another inequity in player perception of mods. Community created models aren't typically the same quality as in the original game either, yet any deficiencies in their quality get a free pass for some reason that quest mods don't. I've received some very negative criticism for Alley of Murders regarding the quality of the voice acting, difficulty of fights and the lack of good loot. I'll be the first to admit that it's not perfect, but I'd say it fits into the main campaign without standing out too badly - I've even had comments from people saying that they didn't initially realise it wasn't part of the original game. I consider that a success. However, I've seen some mods with new models that have significant issues that basically get ignored. Why?

I know I'm coming from a biased position here as a quest mod author, but I'm genuinely interested to know what it is that means players do not give anywhere near as much attention to quest mods. I'm trying to do all that I can to promote awareness of quest mods in development (and I know there are some excellent ones being worked on), and would love to know how to get the word out to players better in order to get them interested. Yes, of course, I'm doing the most promotional work for my own mod, but that's because I have control over its content and am able to dictate how and what is released to showcase its development.

[MDarwin]

Rive Caedo wrote...

While MadCat is right that there really haven't been any "big" projects worthwhile made for DA:O, TONs of the "tweak" mods are worthwhile.
I mean, for my second playthrough, I installed mods to:
Add Awakening-style respec potions to Origins.
Keep Dog in my party even if it's full (making my party slightly overpowered, but more fun).
Fix various bugs (like the "healing received" item bug).
Add new Tactics options for companions for greater control.
Add some cut conversations/dialogue lines back into the game.
Skip the Fade portion of the game (it was fine the first time, but not something I wanted to replay).
Add a storage chest to the party camp.
Give a toggle to display or hide helmets (even when exploring/in combat) on individual characters.
Create dozens of new hairstyles and hair/eye colors.
Turn Leliana's appearance into her Sacred Ashes trailer look.
Give Leliana her Sacred Ashes armor.
Make Nathaniel Howe look more like his father.
Give Sten a modified version of Duncan's armor.
And a few others I'm sure I'm forgetting.

Overall the toolset and contributions of the community massively improved my enjoyment of my second playthrough and I'll be rather disappointed if the same experience can't be repeated in DA2.

That is a minimum what one should/could do with a ts. With the NWN ts I managed to combine the OC in to 3 chapters. Implement the Henchman system, of HoTU in to it and haks/other changes

It was a lot of work, but it was fun doing so!

One of many changes/adition in HoTU was that I made Mephi my "Chambermaid" after I defeated him. {smilie}
Mephi was quite shocked about this!   

I also made my own adventure which is on the NW Vault. Now I wish that the ts for DAO/DA2 would be as stable/funcional as that one was from NWN. 

[tmp7704]

TheMadCat wrote...

That's my point though, Origins toolset is overly complex and several aspects of it are either buggy or completely broken and there is zero evidence to support the notion that BioWare will improve upon those faults as they've yet to do much of anything up to this point. Many of the Oblivion/Fallout 3 modders who were looking to get into modding Origins have said screw it simply because it requires much more effort and frustration then the end product warrants. (..)

It's no different over at the Oblivion or Fallout 3 communities, with a few exceptions quest mods typically fall way short compared to graphic improvements, item packs, and mechanic overhaul mods.

Putting these two together --and given the DA Toolset is primarily oriented at making modules, not graphics impovements etc-- it kind of makes you wonder if it's really the DA toolset that's as awful as exasperated people make it sound, or how much of it is just (poor) craftsmen blaming the tools. I mean, if the Toolset is so awful relatively to these for the other games, what's the excuse for these other games with supposedly much better tools not getting much in term of quality adventures, either?

[MDarwin]

tmp7704 wrote...

TheMadCat wrote...

That's my point though, Origins toolset is overly complex and several aspects of it are either buggy or completely broken and there is zero evidence to support the notion that BioWare will improve upon those faults as they've yet to do much of anything up to this point. Many of the Oblivion/Fallout 3 modders who were looking to get into modding Origins have said screw it simply because it requires much more effort and frustration then the end product warrants. (..)

It's no different over at the Oblivion or Fallout 3 communities, with a few exceptions quest mods typically fall way short compared to graphic improvements, item packs, and mechanic overhaul mods.

Putting these two together --and given the DA Toolset is primarily oriented at making modules, not graphics impovements etc-- it kind of makes you wonder if it's really the DA toolset that's as awful as exasperated people make it sound, or how much of it is just (poor) craftsmen blaming the tools. I mean, if the Toolset is so awful relatively to these for the other games, what's the excuse for these other games with supposedly much better tools not getting much in term of quality adventures, either?

If the DAO ts would function proply, there would be quite a few "custom adventures" already been made. I like to do one! But at this point in time in the condition the DAO ts in, I cant!   <_< 

[Challseus]

AmstradHero wrote...

Which again highlights another inequity in player perception of mods. Community created models aren't typically the same quality as in the original game either, yet any deficiencies in their quality get a free pass for some reason that quest mods don't. I've received some very negative criticism for Alley of Murders regarding the quality of the voice acting, difficulty of fights and the lack of good loot. I'll be the first to admit that it's not perfect, but I'd say it fits into the main campaign without standing out too badly - I've even had comments from people saying that they didn't initially realise it wasn't part of the original game. I consider that a success. However, I've seen some mods with new models that have significant issues that basically get ignored. Why?

This is an interesting observation. I'm not entirely sure, but it may be 2 different types of communities that have come together for Dragon Age. A) The NWN people and The Elder Scrolls/Fallout people. I don't pretend to know much about , but it seems like there were never a lot of "quest" mods, if you will, for them to begin with. DANexus for some reason just has a weird, alien vibe to me, which is totally different than NWVault. Everything is all about "mods", not "modules" (which is perfectly fine), so to speak.  With A), standalone modules dominated everything else, and people generally disregarded certain quality aspects, as they knew it wasn't done by Bioware, but by a hobbyist in their spare time.

Not sure if there is any correlation, but it's just something I've noticed.

[Yalision]

David Gaider wrote...

tommcc wrote...
So yeah: will there be a DA2 toolset? If so, how different will it be from the first? If there won't be one, why? I'm not just making this as a direct appeal to the devs; feel free to speculate in here.

I believe Mike already answered this, but let me repeat: we're considering it, but if there is something for you guys to use it will probably come in the form of an update to the DAO toolset (which would make sense, as we're essentially using the same toolset ourselves).

Right now we don't know for certain that we'll have a chance to do this, hence we aren't mentioning it (lest we be perceived as making iron-clad promises and then be accused of utter betrayal should we change our minds). We'll eventually decide if and when this will happen-- though I will say that the only reason you received the DAO toolset in timely fashion was because of the release delay. Had there been no delay you probably would have received the toolset around the time the game actually did come out-- we don't tend to work on packaging up a toolset for public consumption until after our work on the game itself is primarily done.

So the answer is: we don't know, on any count. But Mike didn't say "no", so that will have to do for the moment.

That is fine by me. The only reason this bothers me at all is because the toolset allowed PC users to fix a lot of the glitches that you haven't addressed yourselves, Bioware. I love Dragon Age and I read thhese forums just about every day to get the next tidbit of information, but that doesn't change the fact that Origins and its expansion were and are littered with a mess of bugs that range from uncompleteable quests (Jowan, Sigrund) to whole suits of armor that disappear forever (Silverite Mines).

The toolset helped offset this for PC users at least, but those on consoles are still screwed. I hope that the sequel is nigh bug-proof, or that you have much better testers this time around.

[MDarwin]

AmstradHero wrote...

TheMadCat wrote...
Quality difference is the biggest reason, which is something you can either mask or get away with completely in other games. It plays the same regardless of what happens, as you said a seamless mesh. Except when you get to the player content there is typically a massive drop in quality. Voice acting is usually nonexistent or flat out terrible, the story and narrative is typically bad, level design is usually noticeably worse then the professional counterparts. Ask people who don't use mods why they don't use them, more often then not the answer is they suck compared to the actual product, they don't care if it's free or not it has to meet their standards (Which are typically set by the product) in order for them to feel it's worth their time.

Which again highlights another inequity in player perception of mods. Community created models aren't typically the same quality as in the original game either, yet any deficiencies in their quality get a free pass for some reason that quest mods don't. I've received some very negative criticism for Alley of Murders regarding the quality of the voice acting, difficulty of fights and the lack of good loot. I'll be the first to admit that it's not perfect, but I'd say it fits into the main campaign without standing out too badly - I've even had comments from people saying that they didn't initially realise it wasn't part of the original game. I consider that a success. However, I've seen some mods with new models that have significant issues that basically get ignored. Why?

I know I'm coming from a biased position here as a quest mod author, but I'm genuinely interested to know what it is that means players do not give anywhere near as much attention to quest mods. I'm trying to do all that I can to promote awareness of quest mods in development (and I know there are some excellent ones being worked on), and would love to know how to get the word out to players better in order to get them interested. Yes, of course, I'm doing the most promotional work for my own mod, but that's because I have control over its content and am able to dictate how and what is released to showcase its development.

I like your Alley of Murders! Nice one! As I played through it, I got a bit "jeoules =How did he made it work?"
As for some (stupid) ctiticim, I had that on my adventure (NWN mod) to.

While other far more broken/buggy mods got a "Heroic Hurray". And hardly a word of "vile" comments.
Go and figure.

[Beerfish]

tmp7704 wrote...

TheMadCat wrote...

That's my point though, Origins toolset is overly complex and several aspects of it are either buggy or completely broken and there is zero evidence to support the notion that BioWare will improve upon those faults as they've yet to do much of anything up to this point. Many of the Oblivion/Fallout 3 modders who were looking to get into modding Origins have said screw it simply because it requires much more effort and frustration then the end product warrants. (..)

It's no different over at the Oblivion or Fallout 3 communities, with a few exceptions quest mods typically fall way short compared to graphic improvements, item packs, and mechanic overhaul mods.

Putting these two together --and given the DA Toolset is primarily oriented at making modules, not graphics impovements etc-- it kind of makes you wonder if it's really the DA toolset that's as awful as exasperated people make it sound, or how much of it is just (poor) craftsmen blaming the tools. I mean, if the Toolset is so awful relatively to these for the other games, what's the excuse for these other games with supposedly much better tools not getting much in term of quality adventures, either?

Unfortuantely there are a number of bad aspects that have immediately stopped a whole host of module makers from sticking with it.  People are willing to learn tough to master tools and such but they will not stick with something that doesn't seem to work.  The unable to connect to database issue alone probably pared down a lot of people.  Add the light mapping problems, the initial problem with the oc being screwed up by some toolset actiivity and a whple whack of people are pared from using the toolset.

Even the fact that working with teams is a good way to go, there was precious little help and or guidance in this area to being with.  Things will get better as new teams and people learn from the mistakes that the initial mod makers are going through.  Also a person or teams 2nd mod effort will be much better, quicker and more efficient.

There is hope for some good stuff in the future which is the good news, one just has to hope that people have not moved on to other things by the time experience meets with quality.

[Rive Caedo]

Challseus wrote...

AmstradHero wrote...

Which again highlights another inequity in player perception of mods. Community created models aren't typically the same quality as in the original game either, yet any deficiencies in their quality get a free pass for some reason that quest mods don't. I've received some very negative criticism for Alley of Murders regarding the quality of the voice acting, difficulty of fights and the lack of good loot. I'll be the first to admit that it's not perfect, but I'd say it fits into the main campaign without standing out too badly - I've even had comments from people saying that they didn't initially realise it wasn't part of the original game. I consider that a success. However, I've seen some mods with new models that have significant issues that basically get ignored. Why?

This is an interesting observation. I'm not entirely sure, but it may be 2 different types of communities that have come together for Dragon Age. A) The NWN people and The Elder Scrolls/Fallout people. I don't pretend to know much about , but it seems like there were never a lot of "quest" mods, if you will, for them to begin with. DANexus for some reason just has a weird, alien vibe to me, which is totally different than NWVault. Everything is all about "mods", not "modules" (which is perfectly fine), so to speak.  With A), standalone modules dominated everything else, and people generally disregarded certain quality aspects, as they knew it wasn't done by Bioware, but by a hobbyist in their spare time.

Not sure if there is any correlation, but it's just something I've noticed.

I think it may have to do with how big a part of modern games voice acting is.
That poster up above who made the Alley of Murders seems to have done a pretty good job of it (based on the trailer), but the only custom quest I HAVE played for DA:O (Return to Korcari Wilds) had such unprofessionally recorded voice acting (microphone crackle being the worst offender) that it was impossible to have any suspension of disbelief.

At which point I basically decided I'd rather play through the "real" game again or buy another professionally done game I've never played (say, The Witcher) than deal with fan-made content for DA.

Which is another point not related to voice acting. ~10 years ago I played a TON of fan made modules for games... but there were a lot less games coming out then too, so they were more imporant in terms of playing new content.

[TimelordDC]

I also think this is the era of instant gratification. Everything should be available NOW! So, anything that is released immediately post-release - which are primarily texture packs, item hacks, nude mods - get the highest visibility and then, the player base shrinks before the quality story-mods come out. This is true of any game today and with each year seeing so many new and good games released (compared to the same time during say, NWN), I don't think this is going to change too.

[danien.grey]

Rive Caedo wrote...
I think it may have to do with how big a part of modern games voice acting is.
That poster up above who made the Alley of Murders seems to have done a pretty good job of it (based on the trailer), but the only custom quest I HAVE played for DA:O (Return to Korcari Wilds) had such unprofessionally recorded voice acting (microphone crackle being the worst offender) that it was impossible to have any suspension of disbelief.

Oh gawd.  Don't remind me. *shudders*

I liked the concept of Return to Korcari Wilds, and I loved that they were releasing a story mod, but GOOD GOD...I had to play with my volume muted.  Mr. Douglas Walker: I loved your module, but please, on your next module if you need a VA coordinator and editor, please contact me!  Not only can I voice act for you, I can bring a bunch of the Voice Actor's Guild on board and I can edit your voice audio!  About 5 minutes in Audacity would have fixed many of the issues present in your mod's vocal track...

I digress.  I truly hope Bioware releases the update for the Toolset; only just now are people finally overcoming the learning curve and beginning to do awesome things with it.  Since the toolset is almost the same as the one they are using for DA2, I believe that if they give us the update that any mods for DA2 will begin to have a more professional polish.  Here's hoping the modding community survives without the update, but I have a forboding feeling in the pit of my stomache.

[TheMadCat]

AmstradHero wrote...

Which again highlights another inequity in player perception of mods. Community created models aren't typically the same quality as in the original game either, yet any deficiencies in their quality get a free pass for some reason that quest mods don't. I've received some very negative criticism for Alley of Murders regarding the quality of the voice acting, difficulty of fights and the lack of good loot. I'll be the first to admit that it's not perfect, but I'd say it fits into the main campaign without standing out too badly - I've even had comments from people saying that they didn't initially realise it wasn't part of the original game. I consider that a success. However, I've seen some mods with new models that have significant issues that basically get ignored. Why?

Two reasons for this, at least from my perspective. The first and biggest is the difference in quality from the original content and the mod in question. Obviously it depends on how significant the issues are, a crappy model is a crappy model and it'll get called out as such. But they can get away with a a lot more mostly because the issue itself may not be quite as glaring and immersion breaking due to it not being at the forefront constantly. In contrast a quest mod with shoddy voice acting, poor grammar, bad plot and narrative, bad level designs, these aspects will always be at the forefront, will always be the players main focus and what they're most keen on.

The other reason is perception of difficulty. Popular belief is that models are much more difficult to create, especially detailed one (And to an extent this is true). The more complex a project the more leeway people are willing to give on issues. That's just a fact of reality in the technology and entertainment field, the more complex a project to more leniency people are willing give.

I know I'm coming from a biased position here as a quest mod author, but I'm genuinely interested to know what it is that means players do not give anywhere near as much attention to quest mods. I'm trying to do all that I can to promote awareness of quest mods in development (and I know there are some excellent ones being worked on), and would love to know how to get the word out to players better in order to get them interested. Yes, of course, I'm doing the most promotional work for my own mod, but that's because I have control over its content and am able to dictate how and what is released to showcase its development.

Honestly there isn't anything you can really do. The first issue is a lot of people have this preconceived notion that mods, especially quest and dungeon mods, are a terrible quality. Amateurish work with to many faults and immersion breakers. The other problem is what you can show. Graphic mods, items, mods, retextures, etc, can show the quality of their work with a couple of screenshots, allowing people to make a judgement right then and there. Quest mods like yours, there isn't a whole lot you can do. What do screenshots tell you, what does a short video tell you? Nothing really, they don't do much to show the quality of the work which means people would ultimately have to play it and a lot of people just aren't willing to invest their time.

Really the only thing that can be done to ensure a successful mod community is to have the developers/publishers (Or in rarer cases the media) promoting and showcasing it, which is something BioWare doesn't seem willing to do. Look at Egosofts community, Paradox's, Stardocks, Civilizations, Valve, these companies have some of the strongest communities in the business and they have two things in common. First is they're all pretty much 100% PC centric, second is they promote and support their modding communities, letting their fan base know just what they're capable of. Egosoft has put together a couple of offical packs composed of various mods and brought in the team who made one of the total conversions to help develop their expansion pack. Paradox and Valve frequently sponsor and publish various mod projects, some for free and others as a product for sale. Civilization allowed some mod teams to get their hands ont he expansions a bit earlier so they could update the mods to be put in the offical game.

Ultimately in order for the community to care about modding, I really believe the developers and publishers have to show they care about the modding community. If you look around the industry, you see the communities that are thriving are backed and supported by the people selling the game, either through constant support like Bethesda and Stardock, showcasing the talents of modders like Egosoft by including them with your product or like Valve by publishing them to the public with your label on it. Sometimes word of mouth is good enough, but typically that only really works in the FPS genre and for at most a couple of mods. So long as BioWare and EA give the community "meh" attitude and leave it be I don't see it really breaking out as other communities have.

tmp7704 wrote...


Putting these two together --and
given the DA Toolset is primarily oriented at making modules, not
graphics impovements etc-- it kind of makes you wonder if it's really
the DA toolset that's as awful as exasperated people make it sound, or
how much of it is just (poor) craftsmen blaming the tools. I mean, if
the Toolset is so awful relatively to these for the other games, what's
the excuse for these other games with supposedly much better tools not
getting much in term of quality adventures, either?

No, the toolset really is in pretty bad shape just scurry around the modding forum here. Some parts are buggy, some are broken, it's incredibly complex and confusing and there's no real clear documentation out on it covering every aspect. I've played around with it, it's not the best toolset around.

As for the "excuse" for other games. There are crappy mods for those as well, and the communities typically shun the quest style mods. There are some exceptions, usually mods which took dedicated teams a year or two to complete. The problem though is because of it's complexity and problems it takes people longer to learn, causes more frustration, and ultimately discourages people from undertaking large projects that can help bring the modding community to the light.

Yalision wrote...


That is fine by me. The only reason
this bothers me at all is because the toolset allowed PC users to fix a
lot of the glitches that you haven't addressed yourselves, Bioware. I
love Dragon Age and I read thhese forums just about every day to get the
next tidbit of information, but that doesn't change the fact that
Origins and its expansion were and are littered with a mess of bugs that
range from uncompleteable quests (Jowan, Sigrund) to whole suits of
armor that disappear forever (Silverite Mines).

The toolset
helped offset this for PC users at least, but those on consoles are
still screwed. I hope that the sequel is nigh bug-proof, or that you
have much better testers this time around.

The beautiful thing though is depending on the file structure and how it's packaged, we might not need a toolset to correct some of the glitches, imbalances, tweaks, etc. So long as we can break it down into text files there's quite a bit dedicated people can do. Look at KoToR 1 and 2 and Jade Empire. Both those games have various little mods, tweaks, and fixes and they had no toolset. The toolset is needed for some larger undertakings like large quests and new level designs.

[Challseus]

Rive Caedo wrote...

Challseus wrote...

AmstradHero wrote...

Which again highlights another inequity in player perception of mods. Community created models aren't typically the same quality as in the original game either, yet any deficiencies in their quality get a free pass for some reason that quest mods don't. I've received some very negative criticism for Alley of Murders regarding the quality of the voice acting, difficulty of fights and the lack of good loot. I'll be the first to admit that it's not perfect, but I'd say it fits into the main campaign without standing out too badly - I've even had comments from people saying that they didn't initially realise it wasn't part of the original game. I consider that a success. However, I've seen some mods with new models that have significant issues that basically get ignored. Why?

This is an interesting observation. I'm not entirely sure, but it may be 2 different types of communities that have come together for Dragon Age. A) The NWN people and The Elder Scrolls/Fallout people. I don't pretend to know much about , but it seems like there were never a lot of "quest" mods, if you will, for them to begin with. DANexus for some reason just has a weird, alien vibe to me, which is totally different than NWVault. Everything is all about "mods", not "modules" (which is perfectly fine), so to speak.  With A), standalone modules dominated everything else, and people generally disregarded certain quality aspects, as they knew it wasn't done by Bioware, but by a hobbyist in their spare time.

Not sure if there is any correlation, but it's just something I've noticed.

I think it may have to do with how big a part of modern games voice acting is.
That poster up above who made the Alley of Murders seems to have done a pretty good job of it (based on the trailer), but the only custom quest I HAVE played for DA:O (Return to Korcari Wilds) had such unprofessionally recorded voice acting (microphone crackle being the worst offender) that it was impossible to have any suspension of disbelief.

At which point I basically decided I'd rather play through the "real" game again or buy another professionally done game I've never played (say, The Witcher) than deal with fan-made content for DA.

Which is another point not related to voice acting. ~10 years ago I played a TON of fan made modules for games... but there were a lot less games coming out then too, so they were more imporant in terms of playing new content.

This highlights a big issue for me as I continue development on my module. The question is: Do I put in VO, some of it subpar, do I only include the good VO, or do I just not do VO at all. I feel like, if the VO isn't good, don't put it in. Then, people start complaining about a lack of VO. If you put in subpar VO, they complain about it as well.

So, it comes down to finding really good VO artists, and while I know it's possible, it's obviously harder, as no one is getting paid and such. Even when you do get good VO, as was in Alley of Murders, people still have to comment on it, because it's not Bioware level VO.

In short, I feel with VO, you're damned if you, you're damned if you don't. Screw it, I might as well try to get in, and be damned

[Rive Caedo]

That's a good point up above about a patched editor actually probably being a better idea than a new editor, since there'd be less of a relearning curve for current/past DA modders.

We could have a DA2 compatible no-helmet tweak in a week instead of a month! Heh.

Challseus wrote...
This highlights a big issue for me as I continue development on my module. The question is: Do I put in VO, some of it subpar, do I only include the good VO, or do I just not do VO at all. I feel like, if the VO isn't good, don't put it in. Then, people start complaining about a lack of VO. If you put in subpar VO, they complain about it as well.

For me, as an end user, I'd look at it this way.

Subpar voiceover makes your module actively annoying, I (and many others, I suspect) would quit out and uninstall it as soon as the first bit of dialogue grated across my ears.

Lack of voiceover makes your module below professional quality... but still playable.

If you weren't able to secure competent voice work, I'd take a step back from the way DA usually does conversations and zoom the camera way out when displaying subtitle text.
If this is already what several non-voiceacted mods have done... I apologize for explaining something that's already standard. But kudos to me for coming up with standard practice on the fly

Unless the toolset locks you into doing "headshots" during a conversation without the option to zoom out.
Then you still have the option of doing this:
While the NPC is speaking via subtitles, use the "behind the head" camera view for them (showing your main character and companions).
When choosing response options, THEN show the NPC from the front.

This avoids the problem of having floating heads without lip movement shown while they're supposedly speaking, which can be rather disorienting.

If THAT is already standard for modules... well then I give kudos to myself again

Modifié par Rive Caedo, 28 août 2010 - 06:17 .

[Nimike]

I for one fell in love with the toolset's expansive nature. There was pretty much nothing that couldn't be done. Perhaps it isn't exactly superbly user-friendly, but considering how many features it holds, I thought it was actually rather pleasant to use. Most of the time.



Stand-alone mods are like games - they need to be bigger and better. No one truly expects the mods to be of equal quality with the official DLC content, but they do have to be almost as good. These days when almost every game has DLCs, the standards for downloadable content, official or community created, has gone up.



Having said that, what was said on this thread earlier, that the mod community is here because of the players is true. What is also true is that there aren't nearly as many players around because of the way BioWare handles the community & promotion. Take a look at Valve's Left 4 Dead 2, for example. They have an official featured player created campaign every other week. Great publicity, great reward, great fun. It is a win-win situation for everyone. ... Then again, L4D2 is for PC only, which isn't the case with DA:O.

[Lathaon]

Challseus wrote...

This highlights a big issue for me as I continue development on my module. The question is: Do I put in VO, some of it subpar, do I only include the good VO, or do I just not do VO at all. I feel like, if the VO isn't good, don't put it in. Then, people start complaining about a lack of VO. If you put in subpar VO, they complain about it as well.

So, it comes down to finding really good VO artists, and while I know it's possible, it's obviously harder, as no one is getting paid and such. Even when you do get good VO, as was in Alley of Murders, people still have to comment on it, because it's not Bioware level VO.

In short, I feel with VO, you're damned if you, you're damned if you don't. Screw it, I might as well try to get in, and be damned

All quest mods that extend the original campaign should definitely have it. A lot of Oblivion mods I just didn't bother with because they lacked it. The reason being, it clearly won't fit at all seamlessly into the game (Which is something I think Alley of Murders did well). So as a player, voice acting in these is a necessity. If it's not there, I won't bother.

For standalone modules, people can get away with partial or no voice acting. Hey, the Baldur's Gate series only had partial voice acting and I still believe it's far and beyond Dragon Age. However, voice acting here is a feature that might put one similar module over another. If it has voice acting, then it's likely to be better quality and likely that the modders have put more effort into it.

Quality should not be expected to be at the level put out by the voice
actors the developers hired, because modders don't get paid and so can't
afford professional voice acting. Considering players get these things for free, I think they complain a lot more than they should. Complaints should be reserved for bugs and offensive content; for everything else, there's constructive criticism.

[Challseus]

Rive Caedo wrote...
For me, as an end user, I'd look at it this way.

Subpar voiceover makes your module actively annoying, I (and many others, I suspect) would quit out and uninstall it as soon as the first bit of dialogue grated across my ears.

Lack of voiceover makes your module below professional quality... but still playable.

Right, this is exactly what I don't want to happen. I too have played mods with horrible VO, which sort of turned me off, and made me think, it would have been better to just read the text.

[Challseus]

Lathaon wrote...
Quality should not be expected to be at the level put out by the voice
actors the developers hired, because modders don't get paid and so can't
afford professional voice acting. Considering players get these things for free, I think they complain a lot more than they should. Complaints should be reserved for bugs and offensive content; for everything else, there's constructive criticism.

If only everyone thought as you did... Either way, there's still a lot of dialogue and editing to happen before I get VO, so I guess I'll cross the bridge when I get there.

[TimelordDC]

If it is bad now, think how it will be when modules have to be created for DA2 - where everyone, including the player character, is voiced and the player expectation is that much higher.

[danien.grey]

Lathaon wrote...
Quality should not be expected to be at the level put out by the voice actors the developers hired, because modders don't get paid and so can't afford professional voice acting. Considering players get these things for free, I think they complain a lot more than they should. Complaints should be reserved for bugs and offensive content; for everything else, there's constructive criticism.

Quoted for great truth worthy of Boo.

TimelordDC wrote...
If it is bad now, think how it will be when modules have to be created
for DA2 - where everyone, including the player character, is voiced and
the player expectation is that much higher.

Assuming we have a modding community by then.  Without support or a toolset update I have a bad feeling our modding community will just fade away...

Modifié par danien.grey, 28 août 2010 - 06:08 .

[Elvhen Veluthil]

I think VO is overestimated and a waste of time from the modder standpoint. But if you are to have VO, the best solution imho is to have something like in Baldur's Gate, where only very important NPC's would have VO, usually a short sentence to set the pace. I still find BG game world much lively sound-wise then DAO is. I guess it's the great ambient sounds in BG that have that effect on me.

[AmstradHero]

The BG example is fine, but the presentation was much different back then. All the dialogue was in a text box on-screen, and the player had to click to continue to the next. You didn't have character close-ups, and you didn't have the potential for players to continue to the next line a fraction of a second after the game changes lines.

In my NWN2 mod Fate of a City, I received some complaints because I used letterbox cinematic style conversations without VO - people didn't like it stylistically, and as I mentioned above, some people missed lines of dialogue because they clicked just as the silent line finished.

Silent floating heads do not make for good dialogue.  However, I guess it could be possible to emulate a BG style dialogue by creating a generic stage with a high long-shot of the party and the NPC they are talking to and use that for all conversations within a mod. Of course, you'll then also need to prefix every line with a "NPCName:" to denote who is doing the talking.

I won't be doing that with The Shattered War. I'm going to make everything fully voiced and animated.  It will be a lot of work, but I feel that the improved strength of the narrative through a more cinematic experience is worth it.

Modifié par AmstradHero, 28 août 2010 - 11:01 .

[MysteriXOX]

I think vo makes the mod much more enjoyable to play. I like to hear the characters talking rather than reading it on the screen. I think that the vo actors do a great job considering they have no sound studios and many have no semi professional or professional equipment. If given a choice, I would always voice a mod even if it means extra work.