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[Patriciachr34]

I believe in Ferelden they burn bodies because demons can posses corpses if you leave them around. The Romans also had ostuaries (sp) where the bones were interred after the bodies flesh was burned away. So finding bones in crypts and tombs would not be uncommon. As for Cailin, yes a funerary pyre would be appropriate. He was the ruler of Ferelden. For this reason alone, it is appropriate to give him a respectable end. The pyre may not have been hot enough to burn the bone, but it would at least burn the flesh thus preventing any further desecration.

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Though hopefully you can find it within yourself to treat the dead with respect no matter what Alistair thinks.

??  Alistair gives disapproval if you do anything but give Cailan a pyre.

Yes, and I was responding to the idea that you should give Cailan a pyre so Alistair wouldn't lose approval. I think that you should really decide to treat the dead with respect on your own and Alistair approving of your actions should not factor into it.

It's Alistair's brother, his word on what is done with him should have weight.

My whole point was that if Alistair weren't there then you should want to treat Cailan's body with resepct because he was dead. If you also think that the  fate of the body of the half-brother Alistair met only once that we know of is something his opinion should matter on, that's fine, but you should have your own idea about what should happen if Alistair decides not to give an opinion and as far as I'm concerned any decent person would want to be more respectful than to feed him to the wolves or let the darkspawn keep their trophy.

If that's not what you meant by 'oh, and make sure you act decently and give him a pyre so that you don't lose approval with Alistair' then clearly I took that wrong.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 25 juillet 2010 - 10:27 .

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

If that's not what you meant by 'oh, and make sure you act decently and give him a pyre so that you don't lose approval with Alistair' then clearly I took that wrong.

That was a casual comment that Alistair would have an opinion on the PC's actions.  Not so deep.

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

The whole "followers of the Chantry burn their dead" thing is a little bit inconsistant lore-wise throughout the game. I think I remember at least one human mention burying people's bones, and I remember at least one mausoleum full of coffins and skeletons.

The Dalish and dwarves bury their dead, and when you talk to Alistair about this as a PC from one of those origins it's presented in contrast to how humans do thing, so I don't see it as a contradiction.

Yeah, I get that the Dalish and Dwarves don't burn their dead. I was under the impression that humans who burned their dead did so because that's the Andrastean tradition. So if humans who follow the Chantry burn the bodies and scatter the ashes and bones, why does the Blackmarsh village have a mausoleum? I'd understand if it was a building full of urns w/ashes, but the coffins confuse me.

Now that I think about it, though, there are big Dwarven mausoleums, too. If that is sufficiently "returning the bodies to the stone", I guess there could be Human graveyards for only bones.

There are dungeons aplenty with undead skeletons, but correct me if I'm wrong- I think these are only in elven and dwarven areas.  And in Redcliffe, naturally, with the demon running amok.

I don't know. Maybe. It was just a though I had--would you find graveyards or crypts or anything in a culture that almost always burns their dead, not buries them?

[caradoc2000]

The wolf option is a bit odd anyway.

[Addai]

phaonica wrote...

Yeah, I get that the Dalish and Dwarves don't burn their dead. I was under the impression that humans who burned their dead did so because that's the Andrastean tradition. So if humans who follow the Chantry burn the bodies and scatter the ashes and bones, why does the Blackmarsh village have a mausoleum? I'd understand if it was a building full of urns w/ashes, but the coffins confuse me.

Could the mausoleum predate the Chantry?  I would guess that's why there is a graveyard in Haven (other than as an easter egg playground), that the Avvars/ Alamanni buried their dead rather than burn them.

[AntiChri5]

The Blackmarsh tomb is during the fade.

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Yeah, I get that the Dalish and Dwarves don't burn their dead. I was under the impression that humans who burned their dead did so because that's the Andrastean tradition. So if humans who follow the Chantry burn the bodies and scatter the ashes and bones, why does the Blackmarsh village have a mausoleum? I'd understand if it was a building full of urns w/ashes, but the coffins confuse me.

Could the mausoleum predate the Chantry?  I would guess that's why there is a graveyard in Haven (other than as an easter egg playground), that the Avvars/ Alamanni buried their dead rather than burn them.

I suppose it might. I don't know if the Blackmarsh village was built at the site of an old Avvar village or something. If it wasn't, I'm not sure why anyone would build their village next to an old Avvar mausoleum. Is there also a graveyard in Haven? I don't remember it.

AntiChri5 wrote...

The Blackmarsh tomb is during the fade.

Is it not there in the real world village ruins? Now I'm going to have to go back and investigate.

[Sarah1281]

If burning bodies is a Chantry practice then it's possible that it, like female priests, was put into practice after Haven isolated itself.

[Addai]

phaonica wrote...

I suppose it might. I don't know if the Blackmarsh village was built at the site of an old Avvar village or something. If it wasn't, I'm not sure why anyone would build their village next to an old Avvar mausoleum. Is there also a graveyard in Haven? I don't remember it.

It appears after you complete... well, I'm not sure if you have to finish the Ashes quest or if you only have to clear out the village, but the next time you go back to Haven there should be a narrow path next to the house with the cow, on the right as you come into the village.  It mostly serves as easter egg land, all the epitaphs are gags about the writers, gaming stuff, etc.  Sooo... I'm not sure how lore-centric to make it.

[phaonica]

You know what I honestly don't know where I made this connection about Humans burning their dead having anything to do with Andraste's being burned alive and purified. I can't find any dialog or a codex that directly says this.

[AntiChri5]

Yes but it makes sense.

[CalJones]

There's a codex entry about Nevarra which says unlike the Fereldans, they entomb their dead. It suggest Fereldans always cremate their dead.

[DWSmiley]

caradoc2000 wrote...

The wolf option is a bit odd anyway.

It can make sense if you think of it as returning the body to nature.  Leaving the body hanging there is the only option that seems unambiguously disrepectful - except to Zev. 

Big stretch - leaving the body hanging there is giving it to the crows??

Modifié par DWSmiley, 26 juillet 2010 - 01:12 .

[Corker]

For whatever it's worth, the pre-Christian Anglo-Saxons cremated their dead, put the ashes into decorated clay pots and then buried the pots in graveyards. It's not impossible to combine a tradition of cremation and one of burial or entombment.

If the crypts in question are full-sized, one might assume it's symbolic. Putting a small urn of ashes into a large crypt would not be the strangest burial custom in the world.

ETA: Before someone jumps in, yes, there were also inhumation burials in pre-Christian Anglo-Saxon England.  I'm not aware that archaeologists have a reason as to why one group does it one way and another does the other. (If anyone has a resource on that, though, I'd love to read it!)

Modifié par Corker, 26 juillet 2010 - 02:30 .

[Ulicus]

Zjarcal wrote...

The only thing that annoys me of the "pyre" option is having to say that he deserves it because he is of royal blood.

Pretend they say something else. The beauty of a non-voiced protagonist is that, as long as it fits with the response, they can have said anything. I usually take my PCs lines as nothing more than a vague paraphrase.

[DragonRacer13]

phaonica wrote...

You know what I honestly don't know where I made this connection about Humans burning their dead having anything to do with Andraste's being burned alive and purified. I can't find any dialog or a codex that directly says this.

I found something close. It was actually quite good timing. I'm reading through "The Calling" right now and on page 212, when they are (avoiding spoilers here) committing someone's body to an underground lake because they've no way to properly honor him otherwise, the book says something along the lines of "the Chantry tradition is to burn the body on a pyre, then have the ashes interred." I'm pretty sure that's a good paraphrasing of it, but I'm at work right now and going off memory from reading last night. Maybe someone could look up that page and double-check? T'was near the bottom paragraph on 212.

Doesn't mention anything to do with Andraste, but it does show the Chantry's official views on properly honoring the dead.

[mousestalker]

The classical Romans typically cremated their dead and then buried the ashes. But there is a known exception to that. The family Cornelii (very prominent patricians) buried their dead. So it's possible for the two traditions to exist side by side.

[Sarah1281]

Doesn't mention anything to do with Andraste, but it does show the Chantry's official views on properly honoring the dead.

If it's a Chantry tradition then it's not a far stretch that Andraste was somehow connected, though.

[Janni-in-VA]

I can't remember where I read that those who follow the Chantry's traditions burn their dead in honor of Andraste's death. Perhaps in the codex entry on the Sacred Brazier in Haven? Speaking of Haven, it's worth remembering that they've fallen away from Chantry tradition and "...worship the risen Andraste." If I recall the conversation with the Guardian correctly, he says it's been some generations since the Havenites followed Chantry tradition, so that would probably explain the existence of a graveyard.

Without using a furnace of some kind, it's impossible to burn the larger human bones to ash on any open pyre. Therefore, the ashes and unburned bones are likely collected in an urn or ossuary and entombed. There's a mention somewhere about the tombs of previous blight heroes at Weisshaupt, but again I can't remember where I heard that. *sigh* I'll check the Dragon Age Wiki and see if I can find a few answers.

[DWSmiley]

Janni-in-VA wrote...

Without using a furnace of some kind, it's impossible to burn the larger human bones to ash on any open pyre.

So the wolves get a snack either way, as the party leaves Ostagar while the pyre is still burning.

[nikki191]

open pyres can get suprisingly hot when it comes to cremation not to mention they burn for a long time as well. if you look as roman cremations the ash remains with bone fragments are placed in urns. even if the bones arent reduced to pieces they would probably be crushed to be placed in the urn.



honestly i think cremation in ferelden seems to be related to paying homage to andraste, but DAO does seem to reverse a few things that you normally see in christianity.. cremation rather than burial, female priests vs males

[Janni-in-VA]

Okay, I found a comment on the unofficial Wiki which says, "The funeral rites of the Chantry involve cremation. As Andraste's body was burned, and her spirit ascended to stand by the Throne of the Maker, so too will that of her followers. It may also be to ward off the possility of the corpse becoming the subject of demonic possession." However, there's no source given for this bit of information.

Yes, a open pyre would get hot enough to make the bones brittle so that they crumble easily. I only meant that the cremains would include recognizable bones rather than consisting purely of ashes, until the bones were broken apart.

Although the companions turn away from Cailan's pyre, I can't see them leaving until the pyre had burned down and it's cool enough to collect the ashes with an eye toward burying them.