80 réponses à ce sujet

[Water Dumple]

The Quarians' resources are probably stretched too thin maintaining an entire existence on ships, not all of which use renewable resources as power. Combined with their constant struggles with the Geth and their limited population, they most likely lack the funds, manpower, equipment, and workspace to effectively research, develop, and distribute a solution to their immune system problems.



To those complaining that this another thread about Tali, he only really mentioned the Quarians in general...not the character specifically. If the massive thread about Tali means you can't post about the Quarians as a whole without getting some flak, some people are perhaps getting too twitchy on the subject. That enormous thread is definitely unnecessary and makes it tough for any post about Tali/the Quarians to be taken seriously despite whatever it might say, but it shouldn't limit intelligent discussion about them.

[atheelogos]

Repellerar wrote...

To build a machine is one thing, it's another to stand against mother nature. Technology =/= Nature

Humans do this all the time. Thats really the core of what technology is. To go beyond what is physically possible.

[atheelogos]

Greyhawk79 wrote...

killersinc wrote...

Seriously folks in this day in age we are within 100 years of nanites taking over for our human immune system and being able to fight any and all infection. This is many years after we would have that abliity, so a race of AI builders are capable of making a host of machines that think in independent actions but they can't make a simliar machine that would be able to boost their crappy immune system. I find this insulting to our intellegence that a race that has had more time to build these machines wouldn't have the imagination or the drive to make these machines. Just think about the concept that you couldn't leave a pressure suit because you would die without it. If you had this you would look for every option to get the hell out of the suit. I know I would! Then why not make an artifical immune system that would boost their natural defenses long enough for the race to get back to a equilibrium? 

To rely on nanites as anything but suplemental is dangerous. An EMP would be able to wipe out your immune system. Why would any spieces make themselves that open to bio attack?

Then your regular immune system would take over until you get replacements for the nanites that were destroyed. Simple

I see where your coming from though. Yes there are risks, but there are also benefits and I happen to think that the we would gain more than we would lose with such tech. I mean come on who doesn't want an immune system that never fails when it comes to natural disease?

Modifié par atheelogos, 28 juillet 2010 - 11:43 .

[atheelogos]

Palidine_0225 wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

Kroesis- wrote...

If the Quarian's are wanting to take back their home world as many do, why would they compromise their immune system, which is fine for their home planet, with nanites? Technology (clean rooms and suits) have made their immune systems worse than they were originally, nanites would probably result, after a few generations, in a dependence on that technology permanently, even if they reclaimed their home world.

...........nanites and immune systems don't work like that.

Do you honestly believe that? Anytime a outside force affects the body, the body adapts. This goes both ways, if someone is constantly exposed to sick people they will be sickly at first but will gradually adapt. I work in a hospital and i have for the better part of a decade. When I first started I was sick constantly, now I never get sick from anything. Why? Because being constantly exposed to the worst airborne illnesses in my area has strengthened my immune system. If nanites were constantly destroying foreign objects in my body then my immune system would be non existent. Without the nanites I would die very quickly from the common cold. This is why influenza aka "the flu" kills children and old people, because their immune systems are no longer strong enough to fight it.

A biological or genetic treatment would be a better option then nanites for the quarians. Permanently alter their DNA to be more resillient to exposure.

I understand were your coming form, but I think your concentrating too much on the world and tech of today, and the world of tommorrow.

[atheelogos]

Palidine_0225 wrote...

FuturePasTimeCE wrote...

i'm just saying, vaccine (synthetic: technological)... a symbiotic nano-technological biological vaccine with a specific time duration... that's like you saying me taking robotusen, alkaseltzer or nyquil (synthetic meds/immune stimulants, not purely natural) to help curb a cold symptom is impossible... but eating oranges and other fruits are more realistic in terms of combating illnesses... 

some synthetic things are made of completely natural ingredients by the way... it's like using oranges to somehow create  artificial immuno-nano-bot-cells... or building robots using plants and wood instead of metal and fiberglass

I was not saying that nanites would not fix the problem, I stated that a biological/genetic solution would be better. Using nanites would cause the natural organic immune system to weaken as the nanites performed that task instead.

I do not know about you and personally I am not in the shoes of living my entire life in a enviro suit but the idea of having to permenantly rely on nanites to stay "alive" seems like a crappy solution.

Wait so having an artificial immune system that is more efficient than any biological system ever could be is bad to you?

"having to permenantly rely on nanites to stay "alive" seems like a crappy solution." And having to rely on space suits your whole life is a better option?

[Kroesis-]

atheelogos wrote...
Wait so having an artificial immune system that is more efficient than any biological system ever could be is bad to you?

It is if  the artificial system were to be compromised in an event which wouldn't effect a biological immue system or the system just wore out. A biological system wouldn't automatically take over if the body has become dependant on the artificial system, in the same way that you get muscle wastage if you dont use those muscles for a certain length of time. Also it means more resources used evertime they have a child. A genetic alteration etc.. could be passed on to a child before birth.

atheelogos wrote...
"having to permenantly rely on nanites to stay "alive" seems like a crappy solution." And having to rely on space suits your whole life is a better option?

Don't forget that as well as ensuring the Quarians don't get themselves contaminated, wearing the suits has evolved into a cultural thing. 

[kraze07]

Tech and medicine go hand in hand, but only to a certain extent.

[atheelogos]

kraze07 wrote...

Tech and medicine go hand in hand, but only to a certain extent.

Are you saying we shouldn't take it too far?

[atheelogos]

Kroesis- wrote...

atheelogos wrote...
Wait so having an artificial immune system that is more efficient than any biological system ever could be is bad to you?

It is if  the artificial system were to be compromised in an event which wouldn't effect a biological immue system or the system just wore out. A biological system wouldn't automatically take over if the body has become dependant on the artificial system, in the same way that you get muscle wastage if you dont use those muscles for a certain length of time. Also it means more resources used evertime they have a child. A genetic alteration etc.. could be passed on to a child before birth.

atheelogos wrote...
"having to permenantly rely on nanites to stay "alive" seems like a crappy solution." And having to rely on space suits your whole life is a better option?

Don't forget that as well as ensuring the Quarians don't get themselves contaminated, wearing the suits has evolved into a cultural thing. 

Just because its a cultural thing doesn't make it good or healthy. What I said before still stands

"A biological system wouldn't automatically take over" Why not? Again I feel as if you guys are thinking of tech and immune systems as they are today, and not what they will be or could be in the future. One could engineer the biological side of the equation to behave differently, or should I say better, than it would naturally would.

[Simpfan]

atheelogos wrote...

Simpfan wrote...

People really scraping at the barrel for things to complain about now, it seems

I don't think so. There are certain things you have to do when looking at sci fi. Suspending disbelief is the biggest out of those things. For this issue there are some, including myself,  who can't. You can tell that those writers didn't have science advisors. It shows through in the writing and It ruins the gaming experience. I don't see how thats "scraping at the barrel" It's a legitimate complaint to me.

A science advisor would tell them a lot of the crazy stuff in ME is bullpucky.
Thats why its science fiction, not science fact.

[Simpfan]

Also, maybe Quarians are a little uncomfortable putting machines inside their bodies?

They dont exactly have the greatest track record when it comes to controlling these sorts of things...

[atheelogos]

Simpfan wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

Simpfan wrote...

People really scraping at the barrel for things to complain about now, it seems

I don't think so. There are certain things you have to do when looking at sci fi. Suspending disbelief is the biggest out of those things. For this issue there are some, including myself,  who can't. You can tell that those writers didn't have science advisors. It shows through in the writing and It ruins the gaming experience. I don't see how thats "scraping at the barrel" It's a legitimate complaint to me.

A science advisor would tell them a lot of the crazy stuff in ME is bullpucky.
Thats why its science fiction, not science fact.

I hear ya, but I still believe sci fi needs to be held accountable.

[Kroesis-]

atheelogos wrote...
Just because its a cultural thing doesn't make it good or healthy. What I said before still stands

Perhaps but in a society who's culture has evolved to that point, not having an environmental suit on could be just as taboo as people in todays society walking around a town centre completely naked.

atheelogos wrote...
"A biological system wouldn't automatically take over" Why not? Again I feel as if you guys are thinking of tech and immune systems as they are today, and not what they will be or could be in the future. One could engineer the biological side of the equation to behave differently, or should I say better, than it would naturally would.

In that case, why the need for dependancy on the technological immune system if someone can alter the biological system to perform better?

[Mycrus Ironfist]

Qs are good with tech... but not biotech...



plot wise - every race will need to have a weakness...

[atheelogos]

Simpfan wrote...

Also, maybe Quarians are a little uncomfortable putting machines inside their bodies?
They dont exactly have the greatest track record when it comes to controlling these sorts of things...

I guess that is one plausible explanation, but if your desperate.... well that creates plenty of incentive to do things you may be uncomfortable with.

[atheelogos]

Mycrus Ironfist wrote...

Qs are good with tech... but not biotech...

plot wise - every race will need to have a weakness...

too true

[Simpfan]

atheelogos wrote...

Simpfan wrote...

Also, maybe Quarians are a little uncomfortable putting machines inside their bodies?
They dont exactly have the greatest track record when it comes to controlling these sorts of things...

I guess that is one plausible explanation, but if your desperate.... well that creates plenty of incentive to do things you may be uncomfortable with.

Maybe there is always a couple of massive Turian ships a jump out of range ready to blast those glass-hat wearin freaky-leg weirdos out of the sky if they ever do anything with advanced tech again.
Hence why they have crummy 300 year old used ships.

[atheelogos]

Kroesis- wrote...

atheelogos wrote...
Just because its a cultural thing doesn't make it good or healthy. What I said before still stands

Perhaps but in a society who's culture has evolved to that point, not having an environmental suit on could be just as taboo as people in todays society walking around a town centre completely naked.

atheelogos wrote...
"A biological system wouldn't automatically take over" Why not? Again I feel as if you guys are thinking of tech and immune systems as they are today, and not what they will be or could be in the future. One could engineer the biological side of the equation to behave differently, or should I say better, than it would naturally would.

In that case, why the need for dependancy on the technological immune system if someone can alter the biological system to perform better?

Because nanotech has more potential. Nanites will always be able to do things regular cells can't, though enhanced biological systems would be enough for some and thats fine I suppose.

[kraze07]

atheelogos wrote...

kraze07 wrote...

Tech and medicine go hand in hand, but only to a certain extent.

Are you saying we shouldn't take it too far?

[atheelogos]

kraze07 wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

kraze07 wrote...

Tech and medicine go hand in hand, but only to a certain extent.

Are you saying we shouldn't take it too far?

Well then I must say I'm in complete disagreement. I think we should take it to the extreme.

[Fifa08]

atheelogos wrote...

Repellerar wrote...

To build a machine is one thing, it's another to stand against mother nature. Technology =/= Nature

Humans do this all the time. Thats really the core of what technology is. To go beyond what is physically possible.

No, it is called magic. Technologie is buid on science - that means critical observing of elemental regularity around which is our physical world build (sorry, I am not native speaker) and technologie only provides us with some sort of device which allowes us to use this natural power.

[kraze07]

atheelogos wrote...

kraze07 wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

kraze07 wrote...

Tech and medicine go hand in hand, but only to a certain extent.

Are you saying we shouldn't take it too far?

Well then I must say I'm in complete disagreement. I think we should take it to the extreme.

WTF? My bad. That last post of mines wasn't supposed to be blank text. I had said that having amazing technology doesn't automatically equal amazing medicine. A nation for example could be one of the most technologically advanced in the world, but unless they've had people specifically researching advances in medicine then their medical field would be lacking.

Modifié par kraze07, 28 juillet 2010 - 01:58 .

[Darth Drago]

killersinc wrote...

Seriously folks in this day in age we are within 100 years of nanites taking over for our human immune system and being able to fight any and all infection. This is many years after we would have that abliity, so a race of AI builders are capable of making a host of machines that think in independent actions but they can't make a simliar machine that would be able to boost their crappy immune system. I find this insulting to our intellegence that a race that has had more time to build these machines wouldn't have the imagination or the drive to make these machines. Just think about the concept that you couldn't leave a pressure suit because you would die without it. If you had this you would look for every option to get the hell out of the suit. I know I would! Then why not make an artifical immune system that would boost their natural defenses long enough for the race to get back to a equilibrium?

-First off nanites are machines, AI’s in fact. The Council has made AI’s illegal to develop long before the Geth became sentient. The Geth becoming as they are now was an accident that the Quarians didn’t see coming until it was already to late. You assume that the Quarians even would know how to develop nanites in the first place based on what, because they built the Geth or that we in the real world MIGHT be close to developing and using them in 100 or so years? They built a bunch of larger robots to use as tools, to do manual labor or to be used as weapons in a war. There is a huge difference in creating something that large with limited thinking and something as small as a nanite with free thinking.

-Secondly, if you paid attention to the games and what Tali mentions (in ME2 especially), you would know that the Quarians seem to have a symbiotic like connection to the plants/insects or whatever (cant remember her exact words on it) on their homeworlds. This is why colonizing a new one is nearly impossible for them. On their home worlds they also don’t need to be in their suits. These suits were likely developed for when they traveled to other worlds and interacted with other races.

From the ME Wiki:
“Quarian immune systems have always been relatively weak, as pathogenic microbes were comparatively rare in their homeworld's biosphere. This is also because the viruses and other microbes were beneficial to them, unlike for humans where they are not. Since living aboard the Migrant Fleet for generations, the quarians' immune systems have atrophied further still due to the years in the sterile environment of the Migrant Fleet. As such, quarians are given various vaccinations and immunizations to help ward off disease. However, they prefer the safety of their suits even in clean enviroments and are reluctant to remove them without a good reason.”

-Thirdly, the Quarians have very limited resources including funds to even try to develop an illegal nanite technology to help with their immune systems. Considering that they seem to get sick to a certain degree with almost anything that they come into contact with this is also likely an impossible task on its own. They would have to spend decades collecting information on every possible food source, virus, colds, pollens and allergic reactions from every world including all its fauna and flora and all races in the galaxy as well. Their recourses are already devoted in plans to retake their home worlds, finding a possible new world to colonize and just maintaining their fleet.

They also wouldn’t risk it considering they are already a shunned/hated race by everyone because of their little Geth creations getting out of control and becoming sentient over 300 years ago. If this nanite tech got created and somehow the Geth got a hold of it, the results could be as bad as the Reapers coming back to clean house.  

Read here for more information.
http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Quarian

Modifié par Darth Drago, 28 juillet 2010 - 02:21 .

[Greyhawk79]

I believe Tali also said something about it being an allergic reaction not a viral or bacterial that makes it trickier than just nanites killing the microbes. Allergic reactions happen much faster than infection.

[Destroy Raiden_]

immune systems don't link to tech besides they have more important things to worry about like their home imploding.