122 réponses à ce sujet

[Herr Uhl]

Must people have faith? Is it built into your core? The system used in DAO is pretty believable.

[Wittand25]

There are no proven deities in game, that is one of the core design elements for the game. This is not like the forgotten realms, where a deity just strolls by for a cup of coffee and nobody thinks twice about it.

classes are simply a game mechanic, one way to handle character progression in the game. Another way would be a skill system like many open world RPG use. Both systems have benefits and drawbacks. But just because we as players have to choose classes for our characters does not mean everyone in the world does even recognize the concept of different classes.

[Lord_Saulot]

Totally disagree. The Faith concept in this game is definitely not "unconvincing" because it actually resembles real historical religion more. Also, your idea that mortals by their very nature always aspire to become gods can be disabused easily by talking to more people.



I don't see any of these things as meaningful limitations.

[Arttis]

I see it as lazy writing for the story.

[bzombo]

Lord_Saulot wrote...

Totally disagree. The Faith concept in this game is definitely not "unconvincing" because it actually resembles real historical religion more. Also, your idea that mortals by their very nature always aspire to become gods can be disabused easily by talking to more people.

I don't see any of these things as meaningful limitations.

agreed. i think the system used in dao is more believeable. being fantasy, it does not HAVE to be believeable or convincing. however, if an argument is going to be made that it is not convincing, i find it hard to make that claim about faith in dao.

[Marzillius]

vilnii wrote...

There were several things that I wanted from DAO which did not show up such as:

No Divinities -
Maybe it is just me, but I have always felt that mortals by their very nature always aspire to become gods. As a result there a certain tension in that relationship which makes for a lot of good fantasy stories. Even the Faith concept the game has going is rather unconvincing. (For instance what do apostates or folks who do not accept the Chantry have faith in?)


No Divine Planes -
The closest DAO came to this was the Golden (now Black) City in the fade. No one knows if Bioware will ever explore it. But other realms of existence are the stuff fantasy is made of. 


classes -
Why were class options so severely limited? There is nothing resembling a Monk for instance. Why does every living being in Thedas have to come under Mage, Rogue or Fighter? Bioware might be able to fix this by expanding the specializations at some point though


All these limiting features just seems counterintuitive for a franchise that is supposed to be long lasting. 


That said Bioware has been doing this for a long time, I'm probably not saying anything they do not have all figured out...

So, what I can work out from this is that you are a christian idiot who wants more religion in your games. You know what? Why don't you get an NES and play Bible Games on it?

[Chuvvy]

Marzillius wrote...

vilnii wrote...

There were several things that I wanted from DAO which did not show up such as:

No Divinities -
Maybe it is just me, but I have always felt that mortals by their very nature always aspire to become gods. As a result there a certain tension in that relationship which makes for a lot of good fantasy stories. Even the Faith concept the game has going is rather unconvincing. (For instance what do apostates or folks who do not accept the Chantry have faith in?)


No Divine Planes -
The closest DAO came to this was the Golden (now Black) City in the fade. No one knows if Bioware will ever explore it. But other realms of existence are the stuff fantasy is made of. 


classes -
Why were class options so severely limited? There is nothing resembling a Monk for instance. Why does every living being in Thedas have to come under Mage, Rogue or Fighter? Bioware might be able to fix this by expanding the specializations at some point though


All these limiting features just seems counterintuitive for a franchise that is supposed to be long lasting. 


That said Bioware has been doing this for a long time, I'm probably not saying anything they do not have all figured out...

So, what I can work out from this is that you are a christian idiot who wants more religion in your games. You know what? Why don't you get an NES and play Bible Games on it?

Hmm, that didn't take long.

[In Exile]

The remarks against specific real-world religions are just uncalled for. The OP could have many reasons why he wanted faith to feature more, none related to being in a particular real-world religion.



That being said I liked the portrayal of religion in DA, because they had the supernatural that wasn't. What I mean is, in our world, if we suddenly start getting outbreaks of demonic possession leading to physical alteration, people setting other people on fire with their mind, etc. we'd all take this as very clear proof of the supernatural, and start thinking things like, this might show god is real.

But in DA, the supernatural is actually natural. There are reasons to be afraid of magic, but it's far more like being afraid of guns. So to see how people react with skepticism or faith in a real world sense to invisible divinity is very cool.

Regarding classes, the problem is lore. There is no magic that is religious based, so paladins and clerics are incoherent. Sorcery and magic is collapsed into one class which frankly makes a lot of sense. All the fighting classes are collapsed into 1 (e.g. fighter, barbarian).

Then we have other classes that are collapsed into specializations, e.g. bard, ranger, duelist, assassin.

[Taoist09]

While in essence, the vast majority of people do strive to become gods, au contraire to what some people are saying, (gods have supreme power, power is used to carry out wishes and desires, grants more freedom), I disagree that it's a bad thing that the game did not include this aspect. The game is very grounded, realistic, with no black and white scenarios, deities would not only exaggerate this reality, but there'd be also significant risk involved in creating a gods-mortals dynamic, which in the majority of cases doesn't pay off.



Deities in games are typically used to elevate the game's conflict to biblical proportions, but oftentimes the aforementioned gods are treated superficially, and without respect from the writers, and as a result underutilized, all in all making the story weaker, not to mention trite since the protagonist is typically the 'god's messenger', something that has been done numerous times.

[Maverick827]

Slidell505 wrote...

Marzillius wrote...

vilnii wrote...

There were several things that I wanted from DAO which did not show up such as:

No Divinities -
Maybe it is just me, but I have always felt that mortals by their very nature always aspire to become gods. As a result there a certain tension in that relationship which makes for a lot of good fantasy stories. Even the Faith concept the game has going is rather unconvincing. (For instance what do apostates or folks who do not accept the Chantry have faith in?)


No Divine Planes -
The closest DAO came to this was the Golden (now Black) City in the fade. No one knows if Bioware will ever explore it. But other realms of existence are the stuff fantasy is made of. 


classes -
Why were class options so severely limited? There is nothing resembling a Monk for instance. Why does every living being in Thedas have to come under Mage, Rogue or Fighter? Bioware might be able to fix this by expanding the specializations at some point though


All these limiting features just seems counterintuitive for a franchise that is supposed to be long lasting. 


That said Bioware has been doing this for a long time, I'm probably not saying anything they do not have all figured out...

So, what I can work out from this is that you are a christian idiot who wants more religion in your games. You know what? Why don't you get an NES and play Bible Games on it?

Hmm, that didn't take long.

This will probably somehow snowball into a Godwin soon, too.

[Saibh]

vilnii wrote...

No Divinities -
Maybe it is just me, but I have always felt that mortals by their very nature always aspire to become gods. As a result there a certain tension in that relationship which makes for a lot of good fantasy stories. Even the Faith concept the game has going is rather unconvincing. (For instance what do apostates or folks who do not accept the Chantry have faith in?)

You didn't meet Morrigan?

[KalDurenik]

The only problem i have is the limit within the classes and their abilities / spells. While Dragon Age world is huge and new (so they can expand on it). The classes and that system need work.

[Aratham Darksight]

vilnii wrote...

Hmmm

Marzillius above does not merit a response. Folks can judge his drivel for themselves...

So, why did you just respond to it?

[AlanC9]

vilnii wrote...
No Divinities - 
Maybe it is just me, but I have always felt that mortals by their very nature always aspire to become gods. As a result there a certain tension in that relationship which makes for a lot of good fantasy stories. Even the Faith concept the game has going is rather unconvincing. (For instance what do apostates or folks who do not accept the Chantry have faith in?)

Did you actually, um, play the game? What the Tevinter mages got up to is effectively the same thing as trying to become gods, and had the result that such attempts usually do. 

As for the faith concept being unconvincing....... my mind reels. What do folks who reject religion now believe in? Also note that the elven and dwarven religions are still going concerns.

[BlackyBlack]

The point of the classes is that they're all different, unlike DnD where most are just slight variations

[Shepard Lives]

vilnii wrote...

There were several things that I wanted from DAO which did not show up such as:

No Divinities -
Maybe it is just me, but I have always felt that mortals by their very nature always aspire to become gods. As a result there a certain tension in that relationship which makes for a lot of good fantasy stories. Even the Faith concept the game has going is rather unconvincing. (For instance what do apostates or folks who do not accept the Chantry have faith in?)


No Divine Planes -
The closest DAO came to this was the Golden (now Black) City in the fade. No one knows if Bioware will ever explore it. But other realms of existence are the stuff fantasy is made of. 


classes -
Why were class options so severely limited? There is nothing resembling a Monk for instance. Why does every living being in Thedas have to come under Mage, Rogue or Fighter? Bioware might be able to fix this by expanding the specializations at some point though


All these limiting features just seems counterintuitive for a franchise that is supposed to be long lasting. 


That said Bioware has been doing this for a long time, I'm probably not saying anything they do not have all figured out...

None of those are limitations. DAO's take on religion was excellent. There is no "Here's God, all shall fear His power until you grind enough levels to kick His omnipotent ass." That's lame. Although, I wish we met some atheists who were less darwinistic than Morrigan (who did raise valid points, though).

The Fade will obviously be expanded upon in later installments, but I do not think DAO's story suffered because of this. Plus, if everything there is as bad as Lost In Dreams, I'd rather not go for a trip there ever again .

As for the classes, I think they work just fine. No need to add monks, clerics and so on just because larger fantasy sagas have them.

Modifié par shepard_lives, 25 juillet 2010 - 04:50 .

[David Gaider]

vilnii wrote...
No Divinities -
Maybe it is just me, but I have always felt that mortals by their very nature always aspire to become gods. As a result there a certain tension in that relationship which makes for a lot of good fantasy stories. Even the Faith concept the game has going is rather unconvincing. (For instance what do apostates or folks who do not accept the Chantry have faith in?)

Whereas I question the status of a "god" in a setting like the Forgotten Realms to be simply a very powerful being, neither omnipotent nor omniscient. Indeed, the mere fact that they could have stats assigned to them removed any mystery for me... and their existence thus quantified meant that no actual faith was required for their worshippers.

Faith, after all, requires an element of uncertainty. You have faith because you have no proof. Faith can be argued... whereas certainty cannot. The followers of gods in the Forgotten Realms don't have faith. They worship and serve these beings, but the idea that these beings actually inspire belief is, to me, far more unconvincing than the alternative.

And while mortals may struggle to become gods, I'd rather that be a figurative struggle than a literal one. A "lot of good fantasy stories" may include such things, but they certainly don't have to include everything. I'd rather have a setting that determines exactly where it sits rather than a mish-mash fantasy world where anything goes.

No Divine Planes -
The closest DAO came to this was the Golden (now Black) City in the fade. No one knows if Bioware will ever explore it. But other realms of existence are the stuff fantasy is made of. 

Again, this sounds like a reference to the Forgotten Realms (since you called them "planes" in particular). In my experience, alternate realms become "let's do this kind of fantasy today"... which might work for a fantasy realm where you want anything to happen, but isn't what we're doing. There is plenty of fantasy possible without it needing to resemble D&D... fantasy settings everywhere do it all the time. It's not particularly limiting.

classes -
Why were class options so severely limited? There is nothing resembling a Monk for instance. Why does every living being in Thedas have to come under Mage, Rogue or Fighter? Bioware might be able to fix this by expanding the specializations at some point though

All these limiting features just seems counterintuitive for a franchise that is supposed to be long lasting. 

So in order for a franchise to be long-lasting it must resemble D&D? Interesting thought. We may expand our specializations in time, sure, but again I don't see the branching class structure we have as being particularly limiting. Maybe you'll be interested in seeing the changes to the system we're planning for DA2, I don't know.

[R.U.N]

Sometimes less is more.

You don't want to overwhelm the player.

[Hawksblud]

I think that there are at least five different religions we see practiced:

1. The Dwarven worship of Paragons

2. The Elven pantheon

3. The Old Gods

4. The Maker

5. The Qunari view, which is not expanded upon but is obviously not centered on the Maker

We also see various offshoots of these religions, especially the differences between the Tevinter Imperium and the Ferelden Chantry, not to mention what we see in Haven. Also, the Dalish seem to worship differently than the city elves in the alienage.

[Saibh]

Hawksblud wrote...

5. The Qunari view, which is not expanded upon but is obviously not centered on the Maker

You know, I felt like the Qun was less of a religion and more of a way of life...they didn't seem to have faith in any sort of unknown spirit or deities, and Sten describes it as being who you are.

[Hawksblud]

Saibh wrote...

You know, I felt like the Qun was less of a religion and more of a way of life...they didn't seem to have faith in any sort of unknown spirit or deities, and Sten describes it as being who you are.

True, I concede. But, in any case, it is a very different spiritual view of the world, I guess is what I'm trying to say. An ethical/philosophical set of rules (?) for living, much in the same model as Confucianism but with different beliefs. Ehh, I feel like I'm not saying what I want to at all, but hopefully I'm getting something across.  

[Arttis]

The Qun decides who you are at birth and you are that person.

Anyone who does not follow the Qun or path chosen for them is not a person.