122 réponses à ce sujet

[David Gaider]

Saibh wrote...
You know, I felt like the Qun was less of a religion and more of a way of life...they didn't seem to have faith in any sort of unknown spirit or deities, and Sten describes it as being who you are.

Does a religion require faith in spirits or deities? Buddhism is still considered a religion, no?

[Arttis]

I believe some versions of buddhism deals with spirits/gods

At least my father claims that and he does attend his buddhist meetings...and claims to be one...

[Hawksblud]

David Gaider wrote...
Does a religion require faith in spirits or deities? Buddhism is still considered a religion, no?

I think Buddhism is kind of a grey area, as it is often practiced in tandem with other religions, ie. Christian Buddhism. It's more a way of life, again a philosophical outlook. However, different Buddhists will have different views on this issue. So perhaps religion isn't the correct word? But yes, I see your point.

[Grommash94]

I disagree with the OP. Some stories can do deities well (LOTR, for example), but I like the way DA did it. Not having definite proof that they dont/do exist; it is just left to the player, which is awesome.

[Arttis]

You guys should read up on buddhists and the many factions/groups...seriously they even have their own newspapers.

[Saibh]

David Gaider wrote...

Saibh wrote...
You know, I felt like the Qun was less of a religion and more of a way of life...they didn't seem to have faith in any sort of unknown spirit or deities, and Sten describes it as being who you are.

Does a religion require faith in spirits or deities? Buddhism is still considered a religion, no?

What I know about Qun and the qunari are limited to what Sten told us. From what Sten told us, I would say that, no (and I really hate saying this, since you made the Qun to begin with...it's like arguing with Jesus about the gospels), it's not a religion. 

Again, I don't know if they believe in rebirth, in things like devas or asuras, or anything like that--which would encompass the "spiritual" aspect of the religion, a thing that defines the word to begin with. I haven't seen the qunari expressly admit to their belief in spirits or any form of deity, so I can't really give a sound opinion.

Modifié par Saibh, 25 juillet 2010 - 06:00 .

[Herr Uhl]

Saibh wrote...

What I know about Qun and the qunari are limited to what Sten told us. From what Sten told us, I would say that, no (and I really hate saying this, since you made the Qun to begin with...it's like arguing with Jesus about the gospels), it's not a religion. 

Again, I don't know if they believe in rebirth, in things like devas or asuras, or anything like that--which would encompass the "spiritual" aspect of the religion, a thing that defines the word to begin with. I haven't seen the qunari expressly admit to their belief in spirits or any form of deity, so I can't really give a sound opinion.

They have no deity. They find that to be silly, but allow new converts to hold such beliefs.

Mary Kirby wrote...

Nighteye2 wrote...

Including the Qunari in Rivain? Do any of the Qunari believe in the Maker or the Elvish gods, besides the Qun?

No.  The qunari themselves find the idea of invisible all-knowing beings who are interested in judging you after you die completely laughable.  They tolerate deism in the converted populations in Rivain and Seheron, however, as they view those people as just getting started on the path to enlightened snarkiness.  I mean enlightened self-knowledge.   Sorry.  Surely they will discard that sort of superstition eventually.

[Grommash94]

I too always felt that the Qun was sort of a rigorous lifestyle of some sort. They don't believe in afterlife, deities, spirits, they just focus on the NOW, and your place in society and such. I also believe that they allow converts to believe in their own deities, as they feel they will abandon them eventually...although I can't remember if that was in a codex or from Sten, or if I am simply going crazy.

[Arttis]

Seriously dude were all born with bad karma.....

Or was it were born with the karma of our past lives?

I am not an active buddhist...

[Solaris Paradox]

"No Divinities -

Maybe it is just me, but I have always felt that mortals by their very nature always aspire to become gods. As a result there a certain tension in that relationship which makes for a lot of good fantasy stories. Even the Faith concept the game has going is rather unconvincing. (For instance what do apostates or folks who do not accept the Chantry have faith in?)"



Uh, what? There's the Maker (Chantry), there's the elven gods, there's the Ancestors for the dwarves, there's the Old Gods (naturally--they're supposed to be the things that become archdemons!). That none of these things are necessarily divine in the same way the Maker is suggested to be is simply a result of the "actual" divinity aspect of the Dragon Age world being monotheistic. There's no law that says a good fantasy universe has to have an actual, real pantheon for no reason other than to have it.



"Apostates" are just illegal mages in Dragon Age, it's not even an issue of what they worship. If I recall, some members of the Mage's Collective might even believe in the Maker.



"No Divine Planes -

The closest DAO came to this was the Golden (now Black) City in the fade."



And the Fade itself? You know, place of spirits, dreams, and demons, where said City apparently is in the first place?



If there's only one "divine" place, it's because there's only one divinity that actually exists. Again, perfectly legal and perfectly A-okay.



"No one knows if Bioware will ever explore it. But other realms of existence are the stuff fantasy is made of."



...No, they aren't. They're one possible thread that a fantasy story can focus on, but they are not "what fantasy stories are made of." Choosing not to delve into this particular thread to any particular degree is not a "limitation."



Not to say that the Fade isn't interesting enough to pull the old "quality over quantity" argument, but I don't think a multitude of different planes are necessary. If there's just one, and it's a good one, then it's enough.





"classes -

Why were class options so severely limited? There is nothing resembling a Monk for instance. Why does every living being in Thedas have to come under Mage, Rogue or Fighter? Bioware might be able to fix this by expanding the specializations at some point though"



Kind of agree with this to a point, although technically the Specializations do count as sub-classes with the three major classes being the main categories by which the majority of classes are defined to begin with. The class system treats these three classes as the base aptitudes required to learn specializations, which is a fairly realistic system--although that any given specialization has only a single set of four abilities takes some of the punch out of that idea. That said, a lot of the time, when you're given a longer list of character classes, a lot of the classes are just different variations on the Big Three anyway, so a system that instead focuses on characters choosing one of the three and building their skills in a number of possible directions within each class--either by way of focusing on a particular skillset or spreading out your talents as you see fit--isn't a bad idea and, actually, removes a lot of the pressure on the player to make that first choice--the initial choice of class--REALLY COUNT.



The monk class's absence is a bit of a disappointment, but I've always considered that job a bit over-the-top, to be honest. I imagine it might have even required its own origin story, which would have been pretty cool, actually.

All these limiting features just seems counterintuitive for a franchise that is supposed to be long lasting.

Not really. The first two points are purely cosmetic quibbles, and the third has potential that could be expanded on over the course of multiple installments. That the initial push was a bit limited doesn't really make that much of a difference to the potential of the franchise, really; it's all about where they go from there.

[Wishpig]

David Gaider wrote...

Saibh wrote...
You know, I felt like the Qun was less of a religion and more of a way of life...they didn't seem to have faith in any sort of unknown spirit or deities, and Sten describes it as being who you are.

Does a religion require faith in spirits or deities? Buddhism is still considered a religion, no?

After taking a class in philosophy and religion I can clear this up. There is no single definition for religion that holds true. It has many diffrent interpretations. Whether you NEED supernatural aspects (gods, spirites, ect) is very much open for debate.

[Arttis]

SirShreK wrote...

Arttis wrote...

Seriously dude were all born with bad karma.....
Or was it were born with the karma of our past lives?
I am not an active buddhist...

Past life in fact. NOTE: I am NOT a buddhist.

I bet there a ton of different variations.

[Estelindis]

David Gaider wrote...
I question the status of a "god" in a setting like the Forgotten Realms to be simply a very powerful being, neither omnipotent nor omniscient. Indeed, the mere fact that they could have stats assigned to them removed any mystery for me... and their existence thus quantified meant that no actual faith was required for their worshippers.

I completely agree with you, and I wish this was explored more in FR roleplaying.  What would it be like to exist in a world where the highest known beings are essentially powerful planar thugs (of benevolent or malevolent nature)?  Then again, that might be somewhat too deconstructionalist for some people's tastes (though my tabletop group seems to enjoy it).

Personally, I think that Dragon Age's take on the topic (somewhat like George R. R. Martin's - or, to a lesser extent, Lois McMaster Bujold's excellent Chalion series) is much more mature than FR's.  It's certainly much more connected to genuine religious impulse / experience.

[Arttis]

So someone is wrong lol....well I was never a religious person.

[Saibh]

SirShreK wrote...

Arttis wrote...

SirShreK wrote...

Arttis wrote...

Seriously dude were all born with bad karma.....
Or was it were born with the karma of our past lives?
I am not an active buddhist...

Past life in fact. NOTE: I am NOT a buddhist.

I bet there a ton of different variations.

Could be... I am not into details.. BUT The Panchen Lama and the Dalai Lama who are SPIRITUAL incarnations of Buddha undergo rebirths according to their theosophy.

Regardless, Buddhism belief in general encompasses deity-figures, like the Brahma, the devas, and the asuras. The word "religion" is defined by the belief in something supernatural.

[Grommash94]

Saibh wrote...

SirShreK wrote...

Arttis wrote...

SirShreK wrote...

Arttis wrote...

Seriously dude were all born with bad karma.....
Or was it were born with the karma of our past lives?
I am not an active buddhist...

Past life in fact. NOTE: I am NOT a buddhist.

I bet there a ton of different variations.

Could be... I am not into details.. BUT The Panchen Lama and the Dalai Lama who are SPIRITUAL incarnations of Buddha undergo rebirths according to their theosophy.

Regardless, Buddhism belief in general encompasses deity-figures, like the Brahma, the devas, and the asuras. The word "religion" is defined by the belief in something supernatural.

Huh. Had no idea Buddhism incorporated the devas and the Brahman....always thought those were exclusive to Hinduism.

[angj57]

vilnii wrote...

There were several things that I wanted from DAO which did not show up such as:

No Divinities -
Maybe it is just me, but I have always felt that mortals by their very nature always aspire to become gods. As a result there a certain tension in that relationship which makes for a lot of good fantasy stories. Even the Faith concept the game has going is rather unconvincing. (For instance what do apostates or folks who do not accept the Chantry have faith in?)

To me, a monotheistic religion works a hell of a lot better in the medeivalesque fantasy setting than the standard polytheistic setting that we usually get. I find it far more believable and interesting. Having different, conflicting religious systems, non-believers, persecuted groups, religious schisms, etc all make for a much more "real" universe than the standard system to me.

vilnii wrote...
classes -
Why were class options so severely limited? There is nothing resembling a Monk for instance. Why does every living being in Thedas have to come under Mage, Rogue or Fighter? Bioware might be able to fix this by expanding the specializations at some point though

Yes. God forbid there not be a class that lets you kill dragons by punching them.


You're certainly entitled to your opinions regarding fantasy games. But it seems to me that you are asserting that, just because a universe isn't standard d&d, forgotten realms whatever, that it is limited. I feel the opposite and find Dragon Age far more immersive and interesting.

[AlanC9]

Estelindis wrote...
What would it be like to exist in a world where the highest known beings are essentially powerful planar thugs (of benevolent or malevolent nature)?  Then again, that might be somewhat too deconstructionalist for some people's tastes (though my tabletop group seems to enjoy it).

Would this be all that different from Ancient Rome?

[Arttis]

well supposedly there was that one dwarf lady who won a proving with bare hands...but killing a dragon bare handed should not be possible.