122 réponses à ce sujet

[Saibh]

SirShreK wrote...

Saibh wrote...

SirShreK wrote...

Arttis wrote...

SirShreK wrote...

Arttis wrote...

Seriously dude were all born with bad karma.....
Or was it were born with the karma of our past lives?
I am not an active buddhist...

Past life in fact. NOTE: I am NOT a buddhist.

I bet there a ton of different variations.

Could be... I am not into details.. BUT The Panchen Lama and the Dalai Lama who are SPIRITUAL incarnations of Buddha undergo rebirths according to their theosophy.

Regardless, Buddhism belief in general encompasses deity-figures, like the Brahma, the devas, and the asuras. The word "religion" is defined by the belief in something supernatural.

Umm... I would dispute that claim. buddhism started out as an atheist religion. It was a derivative of Hindu religion and the elements (Brahma, Deva and Asura) you name are from Hinduism.

I would dispute that they belong to both religions, just as the Abrahamic religions have elements of each other.

http://en.wikipedia....uddhism#Rebirth
Asuras
Devas
Brahma

[Arttis]

SirShreK wrote...

Arttis wrote...

well supposedly there was that one dwarf lady who won a proving with bare hands...but killing a dragon bare handed should not be possible.

On the other ahdn killing the Dragons with swords carrying bunch of 4 guys/ladies should be impossible as well... 'Tis foolish a notion.

Naw I doubt those nevarran dragon hunters worked in large groups.Good tactics adn the right equipment is all you need.
Makes me think of the ps2 Dragon hunter game.God  its hard as hell to solo.Your first dragon hunt*the mission was called* I could not beat even with cheats It was suppose to be the weakest dragon....

[Brian.H]

Isn't the Urn of Sacred Ashes quest proof of the maker?



I mean, besides the apparitions that confirm Andrastes story, you actually have the miracle ashes that can cure anything.



I don't know, i always figured that actually being able to go into the fade, and magical all healing ashes were proof of a higher power in the game.

[AlanC9]

It's proof of something. What that something is is disputable.

[Arttis]

Well powerful magi can be seen as a higher power....the old gods were.

[Estelindis]

AlanC9 wrote...

Estelindis wrote...
What would it be like to exist in a world where the highest known beings are essentially powerful planar thugs (of benevolent or malevolent nature)?  Then again, that might be somewhat too deconstructionalist for some people's tastes (though my tabletop group seems to enjoy it).

Would this be all that different from Ancient Rome?

Unless events occurred which somehow managed not to filter down through history, the existence of the Roman gods was not evident in the way that the existence of the FR gods is.  The Romans still had to have faith.  In Faerun, you know that these powerful beings exist.  There's no escaping this awful truth except by annihilation - if you decide they're not worthy of worship, well, it's the Wall of the Faithless for you.*

* Well, not in 4th edition, but the campaign guide offered no explanation of the change.  Man, if they'd only found a way to work the plot of Mask of the Betrayer into the edition change...

Modifié par Estelindis, 25 juillet 2010 - 07:31 .

[L33TDAWG]

classes are anything, but limiting. You can be a archer, ranger (with pet), dual wielding warrior, 2 handed warrior, tank (sword and shield), tank that's overly resistant to magic (templar), healer, controller, just straight magic damage, a mage that much prefers to benefit the party more than yourself, powerful rogue, or a quick one. Honestly, the classes branch out into separate directions rather than just straight choosing so like in Aeion where you start as a certain class then choose which of the 2 people your class can be. I like it, hell a lot of people like it. It was a nice change to things and I am looking forward to seeing them expand on it.

[Saibh]

Brian.H wrote...

Isn't the Urn of Sacred Ashes quest proof of the maker?

I mean, besides the apparitions that confirm Andrastes story, you actually have the miracle ashes that can cure anything.

I don't know, i always figured that actually being able to go into the fade, and magical all healing ashes were proof of a higher power in the game.

We know magic exists. Morrigan points out that the existence of one doesn't inherently prove the existence of the other. The Fade is the realm of demons and spirits--the Chantry attempts (whether they are right or not) to rationalize their existence by saying that the Maker created it, and giving them a reason to hate us and try and possess us.

However, there a hints in DAO that Andraste may have simply been a very powerful mage--there's a book you can collect as a gift that delves into this theory, though the Chantry banned it. If you bring Oghren to the Guardian, he'll mention that he can smell lyrium running very powerfully through the mountain, and hints that it might be that which keeps Andraste's power alive. Leliana wonders if it's the faith of the people that powers the Ashes, or if the Ashes have powers in and of themselves. You could argue they were bespelled to be an incredible curative.

All in all, Thedas religion is treated much in the same way RL religion is--we don't actually see deities descending from the sky to impart their wisdom and holiness, but many still believe in them regardless. I loved this about the game.

Modifié par Saibh, 25 juillet 2010 - 08:46 .

[Malanek]

vilnii wrote...

There were several things that I wanted from DAO which did not show up such as:

No Divinities -
Maybe it is just me, but I have always felt that mortals by their very nature always aspire to become gods. As a result there a certain tension in that relationship which makes for a lot of good fantasy stories. Even the Faith concept the game has going is rather unconvincing. (For instance what do apostates or folks who do not accept the Chantry have faith in?)

In real life, do you aspire to become a god? I was baffled about your comment in the Faith concept being unconvincing. In a setting in which gods are known to be true, faith is completely meaningless. Faith is required when you believe in something with no proof. IMO, the religious lore in DA is a much better way of doing it.

[Chairon de Celeste]

AD & D like deities no thanks, really

In Celes' NWN oc module Solauffein
my lady pc never chooses to become a deity again
- she shudders at the mere thought about
the everlasting struggle and jealousy among the gods
and wants no part of that hunt for pious worshippers.
My elve would hug and kiss Eilistraee without
though if her avatar showed up in person
- she and her husband owe her a lot, after all.

She always prefers having a daughter with Solaufein
and watching her grow up over refreshing a long forgotten
nightmare.

Modifié par Chairon de Celeste, 25 juillet 2010 - 08:46 .

[Skiffee]

Well, going by Occam's razor and common sense, the real reason is simply money. It takes a lot of money to make these games... and everything they put into these games must get the "Okay" from their boss, who looks at the game from a completely business view point. If the boss believed a "monk" class would have made him more money when his employee brought him the idea, he'd hand that designer some cash and tell him to add it.



On the questions regarding the game's faith system, I won't answer because i'm Atheist and it tends to start a lot of arguments for some reason =/

I'll just say i'm very happy and proud of BioWare for putting those few dialogue choices in the game for us Atheist, it's just too bad that you get (-20) from your party members for choosing them lol

[Shepard Lives]

jln.francisco wrote...

Skiffee wrote...
I'll just say i'm very happy and proud of BioWare for putting those few dialogue choices in the game for us Atheist, it's just too bad that you get (-20) from your party members for choosing them lol

I actually enjoyed that. I felt it made the game much more interesting when you realized your party members were really no better then Morrigan in terms of morality. After all, if they're willing to try to butcher you over desecrating their religion but not over butchering an entire clan of elves, they don't have much of a leg to stand on do they?

Yeah, I liked how DAO let you handle your atheism (aside from a couple occasions where the only options were "I agree" and "Screw that ***** Andraste lololololol") . Also noteworthy was that most times you chewed out Leliana for her beliefs, you actually got a small approval boost. "Thanks for opening me to new outlooks on life", I suppose.

[Gill Kaiser]

With Hawke supposedly combatting the Templars in Kirkwall, I hope we get a lot more atheist dialogue in DA2.

[Estelindis]

Brian.H wrote...
Isn't the Urn of Sacred Ashes quest proof of the maker?

It can be interpreted as evidence for the existence of the maker.  It is certainly not proof.

[AlanC9]

Skiffee wrote...
 If the boss believed a "monk" class would have made him more money when his employee brought him the idea, he'd hand that designer some cash and tell him to add it.

Unless the employees never brought the boss that idea because they all think that monks are silly.

[Riona45]

vilnii wrote...

There were several things that I wanted from DAO which did not show up such as:

No Divinities -
Maybe it is just me, but I have always felt that mortals by their very nature always aspire to become gods. As a result there a certain tension in that relationship which makes for a lot of good fantasy stories. Even the Faith concept the game has going is rather unconvincing. (For instance what do apostates or folks who do not accept the Chantry have faith in?)

Being apostate doesn't mean one doesn't believe in the Maker, and if you'll recall, there are other religions and philosophies in the setting besides the one espoused by the Chantry.  Remember the Dalish elves, dwarves, Qunari, barbarians?

I don't agree with you that mortals always aspire to become gods.  I certainly don't.  That's not a concept that all real life religions encourage, either.  I know in Christianity wanting to be like God (in the possessing divine power sense) is seen as a bad thing.

No Divine Planes -
The closest DAO came to this was the Golden (now Black) City in the fade. No one knows if Bioware will ever explore it. But other realms of existence are the stuff fantasy is made of. 

The Fade is another realm of existence.  It's not called "divine," but who cares? 

classes -
Why were class options so severely limited? There is nothing resembling a Monk for instance. Why does every living being in Thedas have to come under Mage, Rogue or Fighter? Bioware might be able to fix this by expanding the specializations at some point though

Well, why not have them that way?  I could ask why this game must simulate D&D.

[Riona45]

Hawksblud wrote...

I think that there are at least five different religions we see practiced:
1. The Dwarven worship of Paragons
2. The Elven pantheon
3. The Old Gods
4. The Maker
5. The Qunari view, which is not expanded upon but is obviously not centered on the Maker
We also see various offshoots of these religions, especially the differences between the Tevinter Imperium and the Ferelden Chantry, not to mention what we see in Haven. Also, the Dalish seem to worship differently than the city elves in the alienage.

The Chasind barbarians also follow a pagan religion.  I remember a codex entry that featured one of their folk tales.

[Riona45]

Solaris Paradox wrote...

"Apostates" are just illegal mages in Dragon Age, it's not even an issue of what they worship. If I recall, some members of the Mage's Collective might even believe in the Maker.

You'd be right, I remember that too.  Or, they mentioned the Maker out of cultural habit, but you're correct--being apostate doesn't have to do with religious belief or the lack thereof in this setting.

[Bahlgan]

Arttis wrote...

The Qun decides who you are at birth and you are that person.
Anyone who does not follow the Qun or path chosen for them is not a person.

Tyranny written in either poetry or literature. Sometimes I wish that people could understand that the Templars are not ALWAYS the most ignorant and/or most forcing of their religion. Ah but that is a holy war that can never be won.

[Riona45]

Skiffee wrote...

I'll just say i'm very happy and proud of BioWare for putting those few dialogue choices in the game for us Atheist, it's just too bad that you get (-20) from your party members for choosing them lol

Really?  I played an atheist (or perhaps something more like an "apatheist") and pretty much always picked the skeptical dialogue options.  The only disapproval from party members I remember getting was -1 from Leliana for telling her that she should examine her beliefs more.  I didn't pour blood on the Ashes, but that was because I couldn't think of a good reason for doing so, not because I thought they were divine.

[Riona45]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

With Hawke supposedly combatting the Templars in Kirkwall, I hope we get a lot more atheist dialogue in DA2.

I hope so too.

Regarding the spirits who were "confirming" Andraste's story (mentioned above)--they can't be seen as proof of anything because they tend to copy what they see in the mortal world.  Justice in DA:A mentions that some spirits believe in the Maker because that's what they "see" in the minds of mortals.