122 réponses à ce sujet

[FedericoV]

@OP: It seems to me that you are limiting yourself to D&D/FR as the only model of proper fantasy gaming... and that you are blaming DA:O since it's not D&D...

I would like to see more of that what you call "limitations" with the progress of the franchise... I would love to see DA:O trying to make some drastic step forward from D&D... for example I would love a classless game settled in the DA franchise.

Modifié par FedericoV, 25 juillet 2010 - 11:39 .

[Daerog]

There were also cults that worshipped the darkspawn that sprouted around or a little after the first Blight.
Avvars also had their deities, which is mentioned in Awakening and The Calling (I think, maybe not the Calling...), and so on.

I think the OP may be more in favor of the Elven Pantheon (the Creators and such), who used to get involved with mortal lives (through the Fade or something) until they were trapped in their respective realms by that trickster deity, the wolf one, forget the name. Still, even that has no proof and is just another faith.

As for classes, I like that they start with the basic three roles and then have you expand on them. Still room for improvement, of course, but I like the set up.

Anyway, all of this doesn't really matter as being a mage and following the Imperial Chantry is the best way to go. The Tevinter Imperium shall rise again!

[Bryy_Miller]

Saibh wrote...

vilnii wrote...

No Divinities -
Maybe it is just me, but I have always felt that mortals by their very nature always aspire to become gods. As a result there a certain tension in that relationship which makes for a lot of good fantasy stories. Even the Faith concept the game has going is rather unconvincing. (For instance what do apostates or folks who do not accept the Chantry have faith in?)

You didn't meet Morrigan?

Shhh, he's talking about the mythical Atheists. 

Modifié par Bryy_Miller, 26 juillet 2010 - 07:03 .

[DaringMoosejaw]

Hah, Gaider hit it. Question is essentially: Why is Dragon Age not Dungeons & Dragons?

[Stefanocrpg_rev91]

David Gaider wrote...

vilnii wrote...
No Divinities -
Maybe it is just me, but I have always felt that mortals by their very nature always aspire to become gods. As a result there a certain tension in that relationship which makes for a lot of good fantasy stories. Even the Faith concept the game has going is rather unconvincing. (For instance what do apostates or folks who do not accept the Chantry have faith in?)

Whereas I question the status of a "god" in a setting like the Forgotten Realms to be simply a very powerful being, neither omnipotent nor omniscient. Indeed, the mere fact that they could have stats assigned to them removed any mystery for me... and their existence thus quantified meant that no actual faith was required for their worshippers.

Faith, after all, requires an element of uncertainty. You have faith because you have no proof. Faith can be argued... whereas certainty cannot. The followers of gods in the Forgotten Realms don't have faith. They worship and serve these beings, but the idea that these beings actually inspire belief is, to me, far more unconvincing than the alternative.

And while mortals may struggle to become gods, I'd rather that be a figurative struggle than a literal one. A "lot of good fantasy stories" may include such things, but they certainly don't have to include everything. I'd rather have a setting that determines exactly where it sits rather than a mish-mash fantasy world where anything goes.

Well, actually in D&D faith is the driving force behind everything. Faith is what shapes the appearance and the very nature of the planes, as explained very well in games like Planescape: Torment and Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer (ehy, thinking about it, I would really love to see you working at a game with Obsidian... together you could create the better rpg ever made, and actually when you collaborated with them at the time of Black Isle you made a masterpiece like the Baldur's Gate series, that - BG2, I mean - even after ten years is still my favourite game and the better one, IMO at least, created by BioWare).
Oh, but I guess you were just arguing about the actual meaning of the word faith, which doesn't implied to have proofs of your is believed at all, and in that sense you're surely right, since in the FR (for example) people didn't have faith in the gods, they just know that they exist. While in Thedas people who believe in the Maker or other gods actually have faith since they cannot demonstrate the existence of their gods (except for the Sacred Ashes part, maybe? Isn't it a kind of proof of the Maker?).

Anyway, although i loved the Forgotten Realms and D&D, I'm glad you're making a different world filled with different orders, beliefs and other things. I sure like D&D as I said, but I don't want a copy from another game, so it's good to something different and in some way more original.
Besides, you guys have greated a very good background for your setting, so keep the good job!

[AlanC9]

But faith in the FR is a different phenomenon from faith in this universe. It's more like voting for your favorite deity. Faerun Idol.

[Seifz]

David Gaider wrote...

We may expand our specializations in time, sure, but again I don't see the branching class structure we have as being particularly limiting. Maybe you'll be interested in seeing the changes to the system we're planning for DA2, I don't know.

Yes, please.  I'd like them by tomorrow afternoon, actually.  I'll need something to do at work.

[soteria]

Oh, but I guess you were just arguing about the actual meaning of the word faith, which doesn't implied to have proofs of your is believed at all, and in that sense you're surely right, since in the FR (for example) people didn't have faith in the gods, they just know that they exist. While in Thedas people who believe in the Maker or other gods actually have faith since they cannot demonstrate the existence of their gods (except for the Sacred Ashes part, maybe? Isn't it a kind of proof of the Maker?).

Yeah, they pretty much just redefined the word "faith" for their own purposes. They would have been better off to just talk about people "worshiping" the FR gods, but oh well.

[Akka le Vil]

vilnii wrote...

All these limiting features just seems counterintuitive for a franchise that is supposed to be long lasting.

Actually most of what you talked about are GOOD things for a long-lasting franchise.
Subtlety, consistency and coherency make usually for much better stories than Monty Hauls trying to live on the rule of cool.
Mysteries, myths and legends make for a better atmosphere and stories than having gods walking on Earth as a matter of course.
Logic works better and easier in a world where the limits are closer to ours - and hence we need less guessing about how things would happen, and have less plot holes problem that with the high-fantasy where practically any scenario can be broken by the magic available in the setting.

I think that, except for the far-too-obvious rip-off countries the real world, Dragon Age actually did a great job at creating a believable, solid, logical and consistent universe. Being different and more subtly than D&D is actually a GOOD thing - Forgotten Realms isn't exactly a model for believable worlds.

[Bahlgan]

Grommash94 wrote...

I disagree with the OP. Some stories can do deities well (LOTR, for example), but I like the way DA did it. Not having definite proof that they dont/do exist; it is just left to the player, which is awesome.

I will agree, there is yet to be proof that any gods/goddesses do exist. However, what you can say about the ashes of Andraste? If there is no Maker, or any form of religion, how were the ashes able to heal Arl Eamon?

[Haexpane]

David Gaider wrote...
 

Again, this sounds like a reference to the Forgotten Realms (since you called them "planes" in particular). In my experience, alternate realms become "let's do this kind of fantasy today"... which might work for a fantasy realm where you want anything to happen, but isn't what we're doing. There is plenty of fantasy possible without it needing to resemble D&D... fantasy settings everywhere do it all the time. It's not particularly limiting.

 .

Well not sure about D&D, but the Original Planes in Everquest were some of the best gameplay around.

The Fade is certainly one approach, but for me the Fade was mostly "how quickly can I get all the STAT upgrades and get back to playing the game without the vasoline blur"

Everquest (2000 era) had Planes of Fear, Hate etc.. designed for epic batttles against different dragons/beings etc.. w/ lots of power, different abilities/weaknesses etc..

Eventually Planes in games were overdone w/ the WoW instancing and everything becoming a plane and a raid, but back in the day, it was cool to have a high level plane that was harder/different than the vanilla game.

The Fade is problematic because of the blurry dream graphics IMO and it essentially has the exact same monsters only ghost form

[Haexpane]

R.U.N wrote...

Sometimes less is more.
You don't want to overwhelm the player.

Indeed, can't have choices and depth in the spiritual successsor to BG2 now can we
I'm intentionally being over the top but

Lack of race/class choice IMO is a big bummer.  Since I don't ever chose Dorf, I am left w/ Elf/Human.  Wood Elf is usually one of the last races I will create a character with, so it was a big let down w/ DAO and DAOA for the racial choices.

I usually love having a Human/half elf/dark elf/ troll   etc.. list of characters to run with.  IMO it's the best part of a MMO, the ability to use different playstyles, different characters/backgrounds/starting cities/class choices etc...

Hawke is hawke,   I'm a little bummed out that the choice is Human only, however DAO/DAOA was pretty much Human Only or short human like race.

[KingNazo]

Saibh wrote...

Hawksblud wrote...

5. The Qunari view, which is not expanded upon but is obviously not centered on the Maker

You know, I felt like the Qun was less of a religion and more of a way of life...they didn't seem to have faith in any sort of unknown spirit or deities, and Sten describes it as being who you are.

I always saw the Qun as a path of spiritual enlightenment, like Buddism mixed with Bushido but on a much larger scale.

[guru7892]

vilnii wrote...
classes -
Why were class options so severely limited? There is nothing resembling a Monk for instance. Why does every living being in Thedas have to come under Mage, Rogue or Fighter? Bioware might be able to fix this by expanding the specializations at some point though


All these limiting features just seems counterintuitive for a franchise that is supposed to be long lasting. 

Ok so in d&d 3.0 they had like 2-3 classes for every job, and most of them sucked and people played wizards, rouges, clerics, and barbarians.

honestly, less is more. I don't want to have to understand the interactions of 10 classes and try to give them a unique game play experience. Its not practical and it would be a nightmare to program and develop and test and balance.

if your playing an rpg do you want to be a baker, or a haberdasher or a dirt farmer? let me answer that, NO! 

I mean there were squirrils in the game, Why wasn't squirrl a playable race? because Sandy the Squirill can't do s*** against against the dark-spawn!

look you want to be a bad ass mage, kick ass warrior, or smart ass rouge. Cause you can't be any of those in your real life; only sit on your ass in front of a computer/console and do it. I'm sure grey wardens would fantsize about the simply life of not killing darkspawn and making hats all day untill they slowly go insane.

[the point]
less is more. the more classes you have the more complexity and time it takes to make everything and make sure they interact correctly and meaningfully. it can be hard for things to have a place. its also hard for players to understand the subtle differnces between many classes and how they should respond to them.  DAO tactics is simply, kill the mage. Not the most interesting style of tactics but whatever.

[Bahlgan]

Sometimes less is more, but I don't imagine Dragon Age being one of those games. Certainly NOT! Think of all that has been left unanswered in your playthrough during the first game! Unless they cover all that in the DLCs Bioware said there would be, then it seems that Dragon Age 2 will have to step up to the plate and bat an improvement on lore even more so than the first game.

[AlanC9]

Personally, I hope that they don't answer everything in the lore. I still don't know if Vivec murdered Nerevar or not, and that's fine with me.

[Godak]

vilnii wrote...

The mystery of the taint is something I want revealed.

You, sir, have just made my day!

[BallaZs]

I was surprised that there wasn't any evil God.. (Correct me if I'm wrong)

[Saibh]

BallaZs wrote...

I was surprised that there wasn't any evil God.. (Correct me if I'm wrong)

In polytheistic religions--like the Dalish Creators, or Norse mythology--there are often gods that generally cause mischief and strife (Loki, Eris), or gods that represent bad things, but aren't necessarily evil (the Furies), or gods that represent choas, war, or evil (Kronos, Set). Rarely do you have a pure evil god, however. There are evil, immortal creatures and beings, but they're generally not worshipped as gods. In monotheistic religions we see a benevolent all-knowing god, but general malevolent beings aren't gods.

The Dalish have the Fen'Harel, the Dread Wolf. The other religions, being similar to modern Abrahamic religions, don't have evil gods.

Modifié par Saibh, 27 juillet 2010 - 10:38 .

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

I liked the Dalish Creators, the Maker and Chantry were kind of interesting to me too. Hopefully we'll see more of Qunari culture in DA 3. I would of liked to see more dealing with Fade-inspired demon cults though. Cults would be a very practical flashpoint for religion in Thedas I would imagine. Sure the Chantry and Templars would keep tabs on demonic posessions but in rural areas I bet cults could grow if the demon involved with suitably subtle and not spawning abominations left and right. The influences of the Fade on the world of Thedas would just be too easy to attract believers that needed more cause/effect in their world than the Maker has provided.

[Haexpane]

The whole "Maker" thing threw me off. I'm not a fan of the single deity system and everything "good" being to the maker, and everything "bad" being part of some hidden Maker's plan to make you a better person.



I prefer the old gods, norse, roman etc.. that are waging war with each other and using humans as pawns. Much more believable than some loner hipster "making" everything

[AlanC9]

 More believable, Haexpane?

Anyway, Thedas has plenty of Old Gods kicking around if your character feel more comfortable worshiping such. There's at least the elven pantheon, and at least  some of the old Tevinter gods left, how many depending on your choices in DAO. I'm not quite clear if there's anyone left worshiping the latter.

[soteria]

^^ I'm scratching my head at that, too.