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[Herr Uhl]

SirShreK wrote...

Actually, No. That is not necessarily true. He may just have been forced into Fade and sleepiness... But Possession? I don't think the sloth demon can possess multiple guys at once.. He is already possesing one Mage when you meet him.

You are brought into the demons realm, and he uses your life force to be able to exist in the world.

SirShreK wrote...

It is actually quite remarkable that the mages in the circle tower who OPPOSED Uldred got icky bodies and COnnor who willingly became an Abomination did not. Seems like plot-hole to me.

Uldred seemed pretty normal too. As did kitty and the little girl in Honnoleath.

[R.U.N]

SirShreK wrote...

R.U.N wrote...

Maybe the ''takeover'' isn't complete as indicated by the struggle in which the real Connor occasionally comes to the surface.

It is actually quite remarkable that the mages in the circle tower who OPPOSED Uldred got icky bodies and COnnor who willingly became an Abomination did not. Seems like plot-hole to me.

There's a cutscene in which Uldred ''creates'' an abomination and in order for it to work it does seem like they need to accept the offer or go along willingly at least.
Connor seems to have done a ''deal'', maybe that's the difference which gives Connor privileges.
Maybe different demons result in slightly different abominations, is there a difference between an abomination which results out of a Desiredemon in comparision to a Pridedemon?

Modifié par R.U.N, 25 juillet 2010 - 05:45 .

[Arttis]

Well during the encounter with Uldred.

Sloth/Desire/rage abominations were raised.

Only Pride came out in its full shape.

As does Conner if you fight him physically.

[Arttis]

Its not all suppose to make sense...thats not bioware's style...

[Herr Uhl]

I take it as that demons do not need to mutate bodies, but they can.

[Grommash94]

Herr Uhl wrote...

I take it as that demons do not need to mutate bodies, but they can.

I agree.

[Giltspur]

SirShreK wrote...

This also brings us to the topic of eternal interest: Flemeth. She seems to be transfering her souls from one body to another. If One body-One soul hypothesis is true, then the rituals she does must involve expulsion of previous occupants souls.... Now we know that the Dark Ritual Morrigan proposes requires the soul of the Archdemon to enter the baby's body. I wonder if the baby has been rendered soul-less by the DR beforehand. It could be a kind of Blood Magic by the sound of its villaneous nature... Since the baby must contain the darkspwan taint AND then the Soul of the Old God, I would wonder what prevents the taint from spreading to the Old God.... Does the DR ensure that the Taint is somehow washed away after the transfer? I doubt that. But we may find out more about this in the future....

//End mass guessing.


EDIT :Some additional speculation.

Here's my thinking on this. If the Archdemon dies, the Archdemon seeks out a tainted individual to possess.  Maybe that's a darkspawn.  If there's a Gray Warden around, it's a Gray Warden.

If the tainted invidual has a soul (or free will), the Archdemon and the individual die. Gray Wardens are the only things that can kill Archdemons because they're the only things that are tainted but retain free will or souls--other than the Architect and the Disciples.  (Could the Architect or a Disciple kill it just as well as a Warden?)

For the Archdemon to possess the zygote in Morrigan, the zygote must be tainted and must lack a soul for the Archdemon to possess it.  The Archdemon does possess it (as evidenced by no Warden dying); so we know that the conditions obtained (must have been true).   (I suppose it could have overpowered the soul, but it would be ontologically messy to introduce adult-child soul power struggles for vessel control.  Seems like 'soul + soul = kaboom' is cleaner. Who knows though.)

What do we know about tainted creatures?

Ghouls rapidly degenerate, die quickly and are essentially enslaved by the Archdemon or Calling.
Wardens can sense darkspawn and in turn be sensed.  Overtime they start to hear the Calling and become ghouls.
Darkspawn essentially have no independent will, are part of a hive mind and are controlled by the Archdemon (or the Calling, meaning they search for an Archdemon when one is not active).
Disciples are Darkspawn that no longer hear the calling, have free will and develop personality as a result of drinking Grey Warden blood.

The taint could be parasitic microorganisms in the blood that communicate with each other regardless of the body that they are in.  As the infection takes hold, you lose your soul or free will and become controlled by the microorganisms in your blood.

In other words, there's a degree of blood control involved.  With ghouls, you see rapid advancement of the taint.  Grey Wardens function like ghouls but it is slowed.  Avernus slows it even further.  Darkspawn are not ghouls.  They seem to be husks being controlled by deterministic microorganisms.

The Old God baby is weird in that, like a Darkspawn, it initially lacks a soul and has the taint but after being ensouled by the Archdemon/Old God, it has both a soul and the taint, like a Grey Warden, the Architect, a Disciple or an Archdemon.  However, it has Grey Warden parentage.  I wonder what impact that has.  Is the taint dampened by the Grey Warden parentage and cut off from other Darkspawn?  Or will it have the power to control darkspawn armies like an archdemon does?  

I'm guessing, by thinking about the writer as much as the story, that the Old God Baby is likely to be something new and different as a result of its Warden parentage instead of just another Archdemon waiting to happen.

Modifié par Giltspur, 25 juillet 2010 - 06:51 .

[Brockololly]

Hopefully the writers chime in, I love this kind of lore stuff. Couple of other thoughts/speculation:

With regard to demonic possession-
I think whether or not the host being possessed gets all mutated depends on whether they were a willing participant. In The Calling, I think Fiona gets possessed by a demon and gets all mutated, as do the mages in the Tower in Origins. Uldred likely was willing to give in to the demon as was Connor, albeit not knowing the consequences perhaps. Then you've got the Baroness in Awakening as well, who willingly gave in to the Pride Demon.

I think basically your survival and ability to return to normal after posession depends on how long you're possessed. Niall, the mage in the Fade from Origins, wasn't possessed was he? But he was stuck in the Fade for too long to return to his body in the real world. Likewise, Fiona returns to normal after the demon possessing her was dealt with.

What about spirits?
We know that Wynne however is basically in a symbiotic pairing with a Fade spirit though. Is that the same as demonic possession? Doesn't seem so, as Wynne is still in control, but does that mean Wynne's soul and the Fade spirit are comfortably co-habitating? This of course gets back to Flemeth then too. I think from Morrigan's re-telling of Flemeth's story, Flemeth first made a deal with a spirit and then later made a deal with a powerful demon. So, does that mean Flemeth has a spirit, a demon and her own soul all meshed into one? Or did the demon basically kick out the spirit and Flemeth's soul when Flemeth willingly let it take over? Or all all 3 entities kicking around separately within?

Given that Flemeth is a unique kind of abomination, I'm guessing she is some spirit/demon/soul hybrid. She certainly seems to be the exception to the rule.


The Old God Baby, Flemeth and Morrigan:

It would seem that Flemeth wanted to take over Morrigan's body once she was pregnant with the Old God Baby after the Blight was stopped. Maybe, maybe not- we don't have much solid evidence of anything with regards to Flemeth and Morrigan. Yet Morrigan, even knowing Flemeth's body snatching goes ahead with the DR, something FLemeth had seemingly taught her a long time ago.

Morrigan also says that in order to shapeshift, one needs to study the SOUL of whatever it is you are aiming to shift into. Thus, its possible Morrigan seeks to learn from studying the soul of the Old God Baby, thus absorbing some of its power and knowledge that way. Maybe, Flemeth did the same DR in the past with Garahel or some other Warden, but history kind of covered the tracks?

The fact that Flemeth shapeshifts into a High Dragon isn't a little thing- its got to have some significance. Maybe Morrigan is seeking to gather the power Flemeth wields such as shifting into a dragon form, not by making a deal with a demon or spirit but by preserving the soul of an Old God?

[Brockololly]

Giltspur wrote...

The Old God baby is weird in that, like a Darkspawn, it initially lacks a soul and has the taint but after being ensouled by the Archdemon/Old God, it has both a soul and the taint, like a Grey Warden, the Architect, a Disciple or an Archdemon.  However, it has Grey Warden parentage.  I wonder what impact that has.  Is the taint dampened by the Grey Warden parentage and cut off from other Darkspawn?  Or will it have the power to control darkspawn armies like an archdemon does?  

I'm guessing, by thinking about the writer as much as the story, that the Old God Baby is likely to be something new and different as a result of its Warden parentage instead of just another Archdemon waiting to happen.

I can't remember where, but I think one of the writers mentioned that the Old God Baby would not posess the Taint. Maybe its Morrigan that says it in the DR conversation- basically, the Taint is only present to draw the Old God soul to the baby but through magic of the DR, the Taint is destroyed/negated and you've got a purified Old God soul in the body of a child.

I think that was the rationale, but I could be wrong. I think the writers have also mentioned that the Taint isn't necessarily passed on to Grey Warden children- the fact that it is in the DR is a byproduct of the magical nature of the ritual itself. But again, I'm not 100% on this...

[Estelindis]

This topic interests me.



I have wondered quite a few times if the soul of the Warden who makes the Ultimate Sacrifice is annihilated, never to know an afterlife or anything other kind of further existence. Or if they just die. (I mean, the former fairly deserves the name "ultimate sacrifice" and you could see why you'd go to some lengths to avoid it if you believed in any kind of existence after death. The latter? Well, a lot of people die in the Blight. Why is your sacrifice more noble than any of the other defenders of Denerim?) Some lines in the game give one impression re this situation, some give another. I am quite at a loss as to what I should conclude.

[Brockololly]

I think with the Ultimate Sacrifice, the Warden's soul is straight up destroyed- no potential afterlife or anything- its just wiped off the map, along with the soul of the Old God. I think....

[R.U.N]

Brockololly wrote...

Giltspur wrote...

The Old God baby is weird in that, like a Darkspawn, it initially lacks a soul and has the taint but after being ensouled by the Archdemon/Old God, it has both a soul and the taint, like a Grey Warden, the Architect, a Disciple or an Archdemon.  However, it has Grey Warden parentage.  I wonder what impact that has.  Is the taint dampened by the Grey Warden parentage and cut off from other Darkspawn?  Or will it have the power to control darkspawn armies like an archdemon does?  

I'm guessing, by thinking about the writer as much as the story, that the Old God Baby is likely to be something new and different as a result of its Warden parentage instead of just another Archdemon waiting to happen.

I can't remember where, but I think one of the writers mentioned that the Old God Baby would not posess the Taint. Maybe its Morrigan that says it in the DR conversation- basically, the Taint is only present to draw the Old God soul to the baby but through magic of the DR, the Taint is destroyed/negated and you've got a purified Old God soul in the body of a child.

I think that was the rationale, but I could be wrong. I think the writers have also mentioned that the Taint isn't necessarily passed on to Grey Warden children- the fact that it is in the DR is a byproduct of the magical nature of the ritual itself. But again, I'm not 100% on this...

I've wondered if a Warden can actually taint anything.
Meaning, can he/she corrupt the old Gods or the OGB.
This would explain why Morrigan doesn't want the Warden to follow her, even though reasoning can be dependent on each different Warden.

Some might see the child as a loose end or a possible threat, others as something useful or worthwhile especially if they hate the chantry.
But this theory would open up a common ground for every possible Warden to be kept away from the child.

[Estelindis]

Brockololly wrote...
I think with the Ultimate Sacrifice, the Warden's soul is straight up destroyed- no potential afterlife or anything- its just wiped off the map, along with the soul of the Old God. I think....

Little as I like the idea as it pertains to my character (or Loghain or Alistair), I think that would be more dramatic and poignant.

[Homebound]

I think whats important here is, we are all willing to spend 80+ hours of our lives to kill a tainted god-dragon.