78 réponses à ce sujet

[okiness]

Really guys? We're still going on about this? Neither of them are Bioware's character entirely because they allow enough molding room to become your creation. That's right, both of them. Hawke is just a little less flexible. It's really...no reason to get all riled up. I was too...in the FIRST WEEK but now it's just...ridiculous.

[Saibh]

B3taMaxxx wrote...

Saibh wrote...

B3taMaxxx wrote...

Faust1979 wrote...

 there is all this talk by some people about the grey warden being your character. I want to be the warden again! he's my character! but really how much is he really your character? you don't really get to choose what he says you choose what Bioware lets you chooses, the story takes you where Bioware wants it to go. This isn't a table top roleplaying game where your character talks the way you want him to. You are limited to what Bioware wants you to do so they can tell their story. Once again The Grey Warden is Bioware's no matter what you want to believe. 

 Nor was the/your Grey Warden all that special. He/she defeated a blight that had barely come to fruition.

 There are stories of actual "badassedness" in Warden leaders, who did have to fight real Blights.

"For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill."

That's Sun Tzu, right there.

 Sun Tzu is regurgitated far to much, and he didn't play video games.  < That's B3ta Maxxx

Still, the inability for the other Wardens to defeat the Blight early on I would say aren't points in their favor. Besides that, I think the man knew just a teensy bit about war and strategy.

You can personally believe that the other Wardens achieved more--me, I'm going to trust the man who wrote the treatise named "The Art of War".

[B3taMaxxx]

Saibh wrote...

You can personally believe that the other Wardens achieved more--me, I'm going to trust the man who wrote the treatise named "The Art of War".

 Yes, how amazing, a book about common sense.

[Saibh]

B3taMaxxx wrote...

Saibh wrote...

You can personally believe that the other Wardens achieved more--me, I'm going to trust the man who wrote the treatise named "The Art of War".

 Yes, how amazing, a book about common sense.

What? Uh, I think not.

EDIT: Regardless, that quote still raises the very valid point that the Grey Warden's achievements aren't lesser than the previous Blight...slayers...simply because s/he managed to do it before tens of thousands of people died. Considering they have four other examples about how Blights generally go, I'm going to guess that the people of Thedas are pretty damn grateful.

Modifié par Saibh, 25 juillet 2010 - 07:56 .

[BomimoDK]

He's going to be seen again, no worries. DA2 is obviously a inter-sequel game... there may be many of these before we get our Warden's ending, but i am sure he will be back.

[B3taMaxxx]

Saibh wrote...

B3taMaxxx wrote...

Saibh wrote...

You can personally believe that the other Wardens achieved more--me, I'm going to trust the man who wrote the treatise named "The Art of War".

 Yes, how amazing, a book about common sense.

What? Uh, I think not..

 .....................yes, common sense. Although a well needed sense for many.

Saibh wrote...

EDIT: Regardless, that quote still raises the very valid point that the Grey Warden's achievements aren't lesser than the previous Blight...slayers...simply because s/he managed to do it before tens of thousands of people died. Considering they have four other examples about how Blights generally go, I'm going to guess that the people of Thedas are pretty damn grateful.

 .....................and I'm going to guess the people of Thedas don't/didn't care (unless of course for the exception of Fereldens).  Attachement issues? 

[jjbens]

hhahaha you try and make your sentences look like your angry by doing this !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



5 stars for you.

[Saibh]

B3taMaxxx wrote...

 .....................yes, common sense. Although a well needed sense for many.

No. I don't think you've ever even touched the treatise because that is not what the book is about. It's right there on the title: it's a guide for military strategy and tactics.

.....................and I'm going to guess the people of Thedas don't/didn't care (unless of course for the exception of Fereldens).  Attachement issues? 

Right. I'm sure they've never experienced anything like a Blight before. They wouldn't have any idea the sort of horrors one could unleash. I'm sure they all would have preferred to die a horrible death, so that way, when the Warden comes charging in at the eleventh hour, they're that much more grateful.

Whatever, that's not the point: whether or not they're grateful doesn't detract from achievement.

Again, you can believe what you like about what does and does not constitute badass, but I rate preventing death in the first place somewhere above decades of death. And, as I recall, all of those Wardens had the backing of all the countries of Thedas, years of experience fighting darkspawn, and hundreds of other Wardens at their side.

[Homebound]

I think that when the element of choice in an RPG is repressed so slightly, it dips into this uncanny valley where instead of you playing YOUR character, you feel as if you are playing AS a character. I think thats the real issue here. Giving Hawke a name, a face, it's not more an RPG instead more as a fantasy hack n slash. Am I wrong?

[Faust1979]

Just_mike wrote...

I think that when the element of choice in an RPG is repressed so slightly, it dips into this uncanny valley where instead of you playing YOUR character, you feel as if you are playing AS a character. I think thats the real issue here. Giving Hawke a name, a face, it's not more an RPG instead more as a fantasy hack n slash. Am I wrong?

if it lets me guide his story and makes certain choices and lets me level up the character and create a warrior or wizard or what have you then it's still an RPG. 

[KethWolfheart]

Faust1979 wrote...

Just_mike wrote...

I think that when the element of choice in an RPG is repressed so slightly, it dips into this uncanny valley where instead of you playing YOUR character, you feel as if you are playing AS a character. I think thats the real issue here. Giving Hawke a name, a face, it's not more an RPG instead more as a fantasy hack n slash. Am I wrong?

if it lets me guide his story and makes certain choices and lets me level up the character and create a warrior or wizard or what have you then it's still an RPG. 

Indeed, although the entire issue is around whether the character is YOUR character or are you WATCHING a character - and that is very subjective and depends on the individual, their play style and how they role play.  For some Hawke will just be someone they watch as they move him around.  For others they may connect well enough to feel this is *their* Hawke.

Same for the GW.  Bioware set the parameters but it does not mean the GW is no longer your character.  It all depends on the player.  If you, as a player, feel you got enough choices, within the restrictions that any game places on role playing, then the character dips over into being your character.  If you do not care about role playing and just always see characters in a game as a character or you felt the character was to defined to be your character, then you will argue it is Biowares character.

RPG is about choices, connecting to the character your are playing, and how well the illusion of it all works - which varies from peopel to people.  In general more choice equates to a better RPG experience for most people.

Choice is not just race and class.  Choice is also how you play the game and your actions in it.  hence why an something like Planescape, Witcher, ME2, etc., can still be called an RPG even though they have fixed protagonists.

Modifié par KethWolfheart, 25 juillet 2010 - 08:34 .

[Faust1979]

KethWolfheart wrote...

Faust1979 wrote...

Just_mike wrote...

I think that when the element of choice in an RPG is repressed so slightly, it dips into this uncanny valley where instead of you playing YOUR character, you feel as if you are playing AS a character. I think thats the real issue here. Giving Hawke a name, a face, it's not more an RPG instead more as a fantasy hack n slash. Am I wrong?

if it lets me guide his story and makes certain choices and lets me level up the character and create a warrior or wizard or what have you then it's still an RPG. 

Indeed, although the entire issue is around whether the character is YOUR character or are you WATCHING a character - and that is very subjective and depends on the individual, their play style and how they role play.  For some Hawke will just be someone they watch as they move him around.  For others they may connect well enough to feel this is *their* Hawke.

Same for the GW.  Bioware set the parameters but it does not mean the GW is no longer your character.  It all depends on the player.  If you, as a player, feel you got enough choices, within the restrictions that any game places on role playing, then the character dips over into being your character.  If you do not care about role playing and just always see characters in a game as a character or you felt the character was to defined to be your character, then you will argue it is Biowares character.

RPG is about choices, connecting to the character your are playing, and how well the illusion of it all works - which varies from peopel to people.  In general more choice equates to a better RPG experience for most people.

Choice is not just race and class.  Choice is also how you play the game and your actions in it.  hence why an something like Planescape, Witcher, ME2, etc., can still be called an RPG even though they have fixed protagonists.

I myself don't really connect to the characters in my games. I like to feel that I'm watching a movie or long story that I guide.  It doesn't go any further than that. I don

[Shiakazee]

Arttis wrote...

Yes this sounds like something that should start a war.

Yeah but i believe you will have more allies, including me.  OP says the characters not the players? what rubbish...

[B3taMaxxx]

jjbens wrote...

hhahaha you try and make your sentences look like your angry by doing this !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

5 stars for you.

 The quote feature goes along way when responding to another poster........

[Anarya]

Of course it's your character. You are right that every possible choice and outcome in the game is scripted by Bioware, but it doesn't mean your warden isn't yours. I doubt that very many people followed the exact same path, made characters with the same combination of background, class, race and facial features, made the same conversation and game choices, etc. as each other. Mathematically it would be very unlikely.

But beyond that, there's an interplay between the game itself and you the gamer. You are an active participant in the story unfolding. Even for more passive forms of entertainment like movies or books, your own perceptions and personality colors how you experience the story and makes it a very personal and unique thing.

No, you don't have complete freedom to create your own fully custom story and character. That's the limitation of a game like this and if it bothers you, well there's many other forms of roleplay that allow this. But your character is just as much yours as Bioware's.

[Wishpig]

Grommash94 wrote...

Kordaris wrote...

http://www.1up.com/d...ory?cId=3180558
"The
DLC is designed to be for high-tier characters to traverse a punishing
dungeon against high level enemies. While the DLC was never named (nor
was the name of the dungeon), the focus of this new content is entirely
combat based encouraging players to use their tactics against hordes of
enemies. This also means that you should not expect any story elements
ala Awakening"


Don't expect stories, don't expect continuation, don't expect good plot.

Your
character no longer fits the worlds of Bioware.Your character was never
the Kratos clone you will play in the next game.

...This has nothing to do with anything.

He just likes to visit all the threads and repeat himself... doesn't matter what the thread actually is.

Kordaris, the above post is just pure foolishness in so many diffrent ways... I mean, I just don't know what your thinking. How can you jump to such extreme conclusions? You know it's going to have a bad plot? You know there will be no continuation (even though officially there will be), and there won't be stories (wtf does that even mean)? Mind numbing.

Back
to the main topic. You have allot more freedom with the warden in
nearly everyway. He/she may not be YOUR character technically, but
he/she can come allot closer to your vision then hawke. Personally I
don't care about the main character too much. Even as the Warden I felt I
had to choose stereotypical answers to keep a constant "voice". Bioware
makes such great characters outside of the main character, that I fall
in love with them. Hawke or Warden, I'll be cheering on my companions
the most.

Modifié par Wishpig, 26 juillet 2010 - 03:38 .

[Saibh]

filaminstrel wrote...

Saibh wrote...

B3taMaxxx wrote...

 .....................yes, common sense. Although a well needed sense for many.

No. I don't think you've ever even touched the treatise because that is not what the book is about. It's right there on the title: it's a guide for military strategy and tactics.

I would guess that he's saying the guide isn't particularly insightful and anyone with common sense could have come to the same conclusions about how to conduct war as Sun Tzu did.

I feel inclined to doubt that, mainly because he didn't correct me, and secondly because if he ''had'' known anything about The Art of War, he wouldn't have derived that conclusion.

I dunno about that, myself, although I think our Wardens might have gotten off easy fighting the archdemon of Beauty, of all things, rather than, say, Chaos. Now that one sounds like it could have been a badass.

In terms of simply defeating the blight though, all archdemons being equal, yes, I would agree with you and Sun Tzu, the Warden is as accomplished if not more accomplished than previous blight killers, by ending the blight so quickly.

...I sort of think killing the Dragon of Beauty sounds freaking awesome. Fighting the this-and-that of Death or the this-and-that of War or Hate or Doom or whatever is all well and good, but you hear it so often it's sort of boring. The Dragon of Beauty just sounds wicked, in the best way.

Modifié par Saibh, 26 juillet 2010 - 04:56 .

[thenemesis77]

Kordaris wrote...

http://www.1up.com/d...ory?cId=3180558
"The DLC is designed to be for high-tier characters to traverse a punishing dungeon against high level enemies. While the DLC was never named (nor was the name of the dungeon), the focus of this new content is entirely combat based encouraging players to use their tactics against hordes of enemies. This also means that you should not expect any story elements ala Awakening"


Don't expect stories, don't expect continuation, don't expect good plot.

Your character no longer fits the worlds of Bioware.Your character was never the Kratos clone you will play in the next game.

What is sad to me is I really wanted one more good game with the Warden and Morrigan, wanted to at least see what happens there, would have been a fun ride. This  year will soon be up and so will the clock on DAO and its DLC.

I wish that the Warden could have fit, would have loved to see him fight things besides Darkspawn all the time. I would have loved traveling the world and going on new adventures with the Warden you made, cool stuff could have come from that.

When I beat DAA, he went to look for Morrigan......so I don't know what is to come of him, will never know.

I can see the Warden walking down a dark road and you can hear the song "This is the end" by the Doors.

Modifié par thenemesis77, 26 juillet 2010 - 05:09 .

[B3taMaxxx]

Saibh wrote...

B3taMaxxx wrote...

 .....................yes, common sense. Although a well needed sense for many.

No. I don't think you've ever even touched the treatise because that is not what the book is about. It's right there on the title: it's a guide for military strategy and tactics.

I would guess that he's saying the guide isn't particularly insightful and anyone with common sense could have come to the same conclusions about how to conduct war as Sun Tzu did.

 First off, I didn't answer you because I had to go to work. Second, if you couldn't clearly understand my intent was in jest, then..................

 Nonesense aside, I still don't see the validity of your claim in that a warden who fought a "blight that had not truely began" is to be put on a pedestool above a warden who had to fight a full blight. Were the actions of the DA warden heroic? Yes. Were they an "against all odds" scenario? Yes, but then again if it was any less it wouldn't of been a very good game.

Modifié par B3taMaxxx, 26 juillet 2010 - 05:19 .

[Saibh]

B3taMaxxx wrote...

Saibh wrote...

B3taMaxxx wrote...

 .....................yes, common sense. Although a well needed sense for many.

No. I don't think you've ever even touched the treatise because that is not what the book is about. It's right there on the title: it's a guide for military strategy and tactics.

I would guess that he's saying the guide isn't particularly insightful and anyone with common sense could have come to the same conclusions about how to conduct war as Sun Tzu did.

 First off, I didn't answer you because I had to go to work. Second, if you couldn't clearly understand my intent was in jest, then..................

No, but you responded to others who sort of just popped into our debate, so I inferred. I was wrong--I apologize. But you should never, ever assume that your intent is being made clear over the internet. At least not in one sentence. filaminstrel didn't get it either.

Nonesense aside, I still don't see the validity of your claim in that a warden who fought a "blight that had not truely began" is to be put on a pedestool above a warden who had to fight a full blight. Were the actions of the DA warden heroic? Yes. Were they an "against all odds" scenario? Yes, but then again if it was any less it wouldn't of been a very good game.

That's your definition. Again, personally, I think the guy who thought of putting up the traffic light before the kid was killed at the intersection is more heroic than the guy who puts one up after. Same sort of logic: the Warden's achievement isn't lessened by the lack of body count. Being Big Damn Heroes isn't the only kind of hero, nor is it the most legitimate.

And, again, the other Wardens had the backings of entire countries, years of darkspawn fighting experience, and hundreds of other Wardens. You manage to make it to an Archdemon and kill it without nearly that much. It's difficult to tell how large or terrible the horde itself was in those past Blights in relation to the army Thedas had. I think it just narrows down to what you and I consider to be the better hero.

Modifié par Saibh, 26 juillet 2010 - 05:30 .

[B3taMaxxx]

filaminstrel wrote...

But yeah, I suppose Beauty could have had potential, if pulled off right. It could have had a sort of "lotus eater" effect by creating beautiful illusions that sapped your will to fight. That would have been interesting. I don't think it was really explored much, though. It had a beautiful song and it was purple, but I think all archdemons sing like that, and who knows what color they were? (and of course I'm being a bit facetious there, because simply being purple doesn't make it beautiful-- in fact it's pretty ugly looking-- although that may simply be because it's blighted and I'm not a female dragon)

 It would be nice to see these "archdemons" more fleshed out. I personally never felt impending doom nor any other real sense of fear from them/him/it. The Achitect was interesting, but lets be honest, he's no archdemon.

[B3taMaxxx]

Saibh wrote...

 I didn't feel like dealing with the congested qoutes, so..........................

 I do see where you're coming from, and in real world speak I agree 100%.

 ................................but the story will not be remebered (if even told) to the same extent as the later.


 Back to topic, I still agree with the OP, but then again I don't think the scenario of the later can be possible. We must remember every interaction and every experience has been held by another, whether that be a tester, developer or any other person who is granted game access before release. These things must be tested so that your precieved experience can be unique and not crash on the instance it happens.