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the grey warden isn't your character it's bioware's


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#51
Saibh

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B3taMaxxx wrote...

Saibh wrote...



 I didn't feel like dealing with the congested qoutes, so..........................

 I do see where you're coming from, and in real world speak I agree 100%.

 ................................but the story will not be remebered (if even told) to the same extent as the later


I argue that BioWare knows damn well that player characters--especially first ones, as they are held in the highest, most nostalgic regard--don't like being forgotten. Even if the Warden would be forgotten in the real world, I doubt BioWare would slap the player in the face by saying "What you did never mattered to the people of this country".

Anyhow, I doubt we'll ever see a game go that far into the future to be able to tell.

And wouldn't you say, for a continent that has dealt with four previous Blights, the Warden who ended the Blight "before it truly begun" is one for the history books?

#52
Anarya

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Saibh wrote...

...I sort of think killing the Dragon of Beauty sounds freaking awesome. Fighting the this-and-that of Death or the this-and-that of War or Hate or Doom or whatever is all well and good, but you hear it so often it's sort of boring. The Dragon of Beauty just sounds wicked, in the best way.


Yes it sort of brings to mind another mythic figure who was the most beautiful and splendid of all the angels before his fall..

Interesting angle to explore, especially if the godchild returns later on. To have a past as both something beautiful and something terrible and have to maybe struggle with both inclinations. Way more interesting and multifaceted.

#53
Saibh

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Anarya wrote...

Saibh wrote...

...I sort of think killing the Dragon of Beauty sounds freaking awesome. Fighting the this-and-that of Death or the this-and-that of War or Hate or Doom or whatever is all well and good, but you hear it so often it's sort of boring. The Dragon of Beauty just sounds wicked, in the best way.


Yes it sort of brings to mind another mythic figure who was the most beautiful and splendid of all the angels before his fall..

Interesting angle to explore, especially if the godchild returns later on. To have a past as both something beautiful and something terrible and have to maybe struggle with both inclinations. Way more interesting and multifaceted.


So that's what I was thinking of. I knew my mind was trying to drudge up some sort of reference to some piece of literature, and I kept thinking "Annatar? No, not enough substance..." I can't believe I forgot Lucifer. /facepalm

#54
B3taMaxxx

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Saibh wrote...

And wouldn't you say, for a continent that has dealt with four previous Blights, the Warden who ended the Blight "before it truly begun" is one for the history books?



 ................well, yes?

 Excellent point, though I still hold the hope in my head that we will see a return of the warden in later iterations. For now though, I'm just to burned out on the warden to be, well, less than negative. ( <and there you now see my true intent)

#55
Saibh

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B3taMaxxx wrote...

Saibh wrote...

And wouldn't you say, for a continent that has dealt with four previous Blights, the Warden who ended the Blight "before it truly begun" is one for the history books?



 ................well, yes?

 Excellent point, though I still hold the hope in my head that we will see a return of the warden in later iterations. For now though, I'm just to burned out on the warden to be, well, less than negative. ( <and there you now see my true intent)


Yes, you're very dastardly. ^_^

#56
Anarya

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Saibh wrote...

Anarya wrote...

Saibh wrote...

...I sort of think killing the Dragon of Beauty sounds freaking awesome. Fighting the this-and-that of Death or the this-and-that of War or Hate or Doom or whatever is all well and good, but you hear it so often it's sort of boring. The Dragon of Beauty just sounds wicked, in the best way.


Yes it sort of brings to mind another mythic figure who was the most beautiful and splendid of all the angels before his fall..

Interesting angle to explore, especially if the godchild returns later on. To have a past as both something beautiful and something terrible and have to maybe struggle with both inclinations. Way more interesting and multifaceted.


So that's what I was thinking of. I knew my mind was trying to drudge up some sort of reference to some piece of literature, and I kept thinking "Annatar? No, not enough substance..." I can't believe I forgot Lucifer. /facepalm


Glad to help. It was the first thing that popped to my mind when I was reading about the Old Gods in the wiki (haven't read the novels). It got me more excited to revisit the demon baby in the future.

#57
B3taMaxxx

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Anarya wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Anarya wrote...

Saibh wrote...

...I sort of think killing the Dragon of Beauty sounds freaking awesome. Fighting the this-and-that of Death or the this-and-that of War or Hate or Doom or whatever is all well and good, but you hear it so often it's sort of boring. The Dragon of Beauty just sounds wicked, in the best way.


Yes it sort of brings to mind another mythic figure who was the most beautiful and splendid of all the angels before his fall..

Interesting angle to explore, especially if the godchild returns later on. To have a past as both something beautiful and something terrible and have to maybe struggle with both inclinations. Way more interesting and multifaceted.


So that's what I was thinking of. I knew my mind was trying to drudge up some sort of reference to some piece of literature, and I kept thinking "Annatar? No, not enough substance..." I can't believe I forgot Lucifer. /facepalm


Glad to help. It was the first thing that popped to my mind when I was reading about the Old Gods in the wiki (haven't read the novels). It got me more excited to revisit the demon baby in the future.



  .....and you see there   -I'm not as worried as others because of these incredible possibilities they've conjured for us. So many many possibilities, a 10 game series is a joke.

#58
Anarya

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B3taMaxxx wrote...

  .....and you see there   -I'm not as worried as others because of these incredible possibilities they've conjured for us. So many many possibilities, a 10 game series is a joke.


Absolutely. There's so much unexplored territory and directions they could take us in. I mean it *is* a brand-new IP after all.

#59
asaiasai

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TheMadCat wrote...

BioWare created the character but that doesn't mean it isn't your character. I guarantee by the end of the game my Warden was different from yours, different from Arttis', different from Gaider's, ect. When you give the player the option to define that character through choices, appearance, direction, abilities, beliefs, and so on the characters become unique from one another despite ultimately fulfilling the same role and purpose at the end of the day.



I feel that this is one of if not THE reason that DAO was so good. I have 19 wardens and each is individual and unique for the very reasons you mentioned. The game was written i would hope on purpose, because if so then it is possible for Bioware to duplicate it with another game, this way. Every one in this forums has made choices for thier own reasons that will determine how thier warden turns out. I am not going to be a naysayer and scream the world is over because Hawke is human or named. It is possible to still have a pre fab character that can be as unique as the wardens from DAO were. It might require a bit more work in order to create the opportunitues for the player to develop thier own unique Hawkes, but from what i have managed to glean from what little information is avalable this is still the mind set of Bioware in regards to Hawke.

Sure it might be a bummer that i can not play an Elf, Dwarf, and i loose the individuality of the different origins but if Bioware opens up the choices avalable to the player this is still possible for Hawke to be unique each play, providing the player with plenty of replay value. Sure the DA2 is going to be different, it has to be, and as game design is an art form all artists try new things. While some artists are afforded the luxury of going from canvas to stone to bronze, in game design the medium is digital which maybe a bit more forgiving than a block of marble, but this also limits the creativity of the artists as thier medium is always the same. As such it is not unexpected that as the artist evolves so will their expression in thier medium. Will all of thier ideas transfer from thier minds to lines of code? Absolutly not. But i for one am willing to grow with the artist so long as the artist is willing to stay true to some of the principals that attracted me to thier creations.

DA2 may not be what everyone expects, some will be good some sub par, but for the most part i have to say that i am satisfyied with the experience. As such when my favoriet artists (Bioware) offer a new creation i am interested in seeing just where the artist has decided to take me. Add into this the simple fact that it is not uncommon for the artists themselves to address the concerns of thier fans directly. What more can you expect? Thier new vision does not seem to be abandoning the basics of what has made thier art so pleasing to many of us, so i for one am willing to see what there is to see and reserve judgment until i actually have something to complain about.

Here is some simple math for the folks who complain about change. If A=B, if B=C, then A=C.
Life = Growth, Growth = Change, therefore Life = Change.

Asai

#60
B3taMaxxx

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Asai, as a long time troll, I have to say; If not for your very name (your post are good) I wouldn't have read your post. Indentation is a plus, ecspecially when deciphering between the good and bad....you get my drift?





And, IMO, I don't see an "abondonment", but an exploration.....to each their own I suppose.

#61
Solid N7

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HAHAHA the OP is right, this is a blow of reality to the hardcore rpg gamers.

#62
Guest_mochen_*

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sigh. The OP is right and wrong. Granted bioware wrote the game, but the way you play it defines the character. And seeing as there are so many different ways to play the game. Everyone is going to do it slightly differently.

Plus creating your own face goes a long way to personalising the warden. Making them feel and appear to be your own creation.

#63
asaiasai

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B3taMaxxx wrote...

Asai, as a long time troll, I have to say; If not for your very name (your post are good) I wouldn't have read your post. Indentation is a plus, ecspecially when deciphering between the good and bad....you get my drift?


And, IMO, I don't see an "abondonment", but an exploration.....to each their own I suppose.


Thanks... i think. So long as you do not think i am a long time troll. If Asai is trolling i will open the post up with Bzzzzzzzzzz ploop no subtlety there.. Other than that i do try to be provacative sometimes, it seems to work better than subtlety.
 
I think you misintrepreted my statement because i do not see Bioware abandoning the principles of DAO, as you have said more of an exploration of what they can do with those same principles.

Considering that feb 2011 is still a quite a bit away many of the things folks are pissed off about are subject to change. All one has to do is look at the evolution of DAO even up to the last weeks before release some things were dropped or added it is the nature of the beast. I can not give specifics but there were some things Bioware worked on for months and dropped at the last minute because they were not happy with how it turned out. In truth what DA2 is at this moment can and probably will change depending on how workable the ideas may be. The only idea i am not willing to trade is individuality of each character that transcends more than just class and builds, more the personality of the character. I for one am interested to see how the tone of the replies effect replay value. 

Asai 

#64
JHByrne

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I've played comp games for a LONG TIME. Long enough, f'rinstance, to still remember Lindley (Alpha Centauri) and the break-in of the notion of NPCs that the player actually cared enough about to get (somewhat) emotional over.



I too created multiple Wardens. I completed the game w/ 2 of them, a considerable investment of time and effort, as I tend to try and complete all of the quests/miniquests. I also created several other starter Wardens, simply to briefly explore different possibilities of gameplay, and more importantly to me, characterizations.



I tend to like to explore personas. That's the point of a 'role-playing' game after all, NOT seeing how powerful/one shot, one kill you can make your character.

So, when playing as a Human Noble (Morcar), I tended to making him with aspirations of nobility, but an ever-present hard intent of vengeance on Howe (and laterally, on Loghain). This meant I was usually fairly 'nice' to people, but able to bring on the violence. Morcar (my character) was always in the front of a fight (Berserker/Champion), and by game's end, stacked up over 1100 kills personally. An interesting character, but fairly one-dimensional as his motivations were fairly straightforward, and his solutions involved either polite dialogue or ferocious hand-to-hand combat. One of the most significant 'plot' decisions made by Morcar was whether or not to destroy the Anvil. Leliana, a companion on that mission (and also a lover) convinced me to destroy it, which fit in with the characterization of a justice and fair-play minded character.



My next character was more multi-faceted, an Elf Mage. Eltanen, I decided, was a sort of rootless megalomaniac (power/magic hungry) with a streak of homicidal ruthlessness. Eltanen never had any problems betraying Jowan (the rogue Mage, seen at the Mage Origin, and later at Arl Eamon's Redcliff castle). Jowan, to this character, was a weasel who made a stupid decision, and got caught. Later, ironically, Eltanen himself became a Blood Mage and Arcane Warrior... hypocritical, of course, but playing as a sociopath, it somehow fit. Eltanen might have done 'the right thing' but only if it somehow benefitted him, or increased his power. Of course, a stronger, meaner character is more capable of fighting the Blight, so being a sociopath was not necessarily a bad thing, or entirely unpredictable.

Now, as an Elf, Eltanen didn't have any roots... to Human culture, to the Mages (the Tower was, after all, universally recognized as a gilded prison), to Human religion ('Maker? Bah!'), or even to Elven culture (as an Elf Warden, Eltanen killed Zathrian, the leader of the Dalish, AFTER killing all the werewolves).

As a ruthless, power-mad sociopath, it was STILL possible to be perceived as a 'good guy'. Here was the beauty of DAO's original story-line. After all, consider how many heroes of history and myth were considered heroes... but oftentimes were not so heroic in their approach. It brings up the obvious observation: to be a successful 'hero', sometimes one must NOT be so bloody heroic.



Apply this observation to DAO. Duncan goes around the countryside, recruiting for the Grey Wardens. He never bothers to mention that it is a death sentence, either earlier or later. The Maker itself is a very ambivalent God... as Morrigan wryly observes when she points out that the Maker abandoned humanity twice, and inflicted the Blight on Thedas in the first place. Leliana, the goody-goody, is revealed to be a sneak and a self-righteous hypocrite. Wynn, the grandmotherly, is not entirely 'good' either.

Heroes need fangs.... and a streak of ruthlessness, or they never become heroes.



How does this all apply to plotline? Well, it's a lot easier to come to certain psychological choices, if one has the background. The Human Noble has vengeance. An Elf Mage warden has liberty and power issues. Other origins add a different flavor to different characterizations, allowing a deeper immersion in the storyline.

If DA2 insists on forcing the player to be 'Hawke', a human, those psychological paths are narrowed down quite a bit.



My suspicion is that the development team wanted to concentrate more on flash and video clips, and less on storyline. In my opinion as a long-time player of video games, I consider this to be a pedictable mistake of sequel teams. I personally recommend that the storyline ALWAYS comes first, the graphics a distant second. If you look back on the games that were memorable, story-led games always win... flashy graphics games make a good initial sale, but the interest level inevitably wanes and along comes another game to capture the player's attention.



Consider the above postings by Saibh. S/he wants to explore possibilities already opened up in DA: Origins. And what possibilities there are. Sure, the 'ArchDemon' is gone, but now what?



Well, as a player character, if I am 'allowed' to revisit being an Elf Mage, I'd like to discover Arlathan, and possibly participate in a war against the Humans and the Chantry, to re-establish the Elves as a power. As a Human Noble, I have incentive to rebuild Ferelden, which inevitably brings up the question of what I would do with Orlais or the Dalish, long-term. What about a struggle between the White Chantry and the Black Chantry? What happens, now that Haven is a pilgrimage site? What happens with the implied threat of the Qunari? Am I going to meet Sten again, ACROSS a battlefield? Will the Qunari actually have those cannons they mentioned?

So, no ArchDemon? So what? The possibilities are open that DA3 could be a multi-player struggle, with the undertone that 'a new Old God' is on the way'. Is this a good thing, or a bad thing? Depends on who is asking, I guess. We know what the Chantry would say... we know where Morrigan would throw her chips... but where does a newly politicized Grey Warden fall? (After all, considering the events of DAO, it's hard to justify the Wardens as any kind of 'neutral' force).



It's all about _possibilities_. Fixating on ONE character (Hawke) seems like a step backward as a plot-device. Sure, the development team gets to make more fancy video-clips... but the loss of player identification, and the narrowing of plot are not worth the limited gain.



-- John Harlow Byrne

#65
B3taMaxxx

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asaiasai wrote...

B3taMaxxx wrote...

Asai, as a long time troll, I have to say; If not for your very name (your post are good) I wouldn't have read your post. Indentation is a plus, ecspecially when deciphering between the good and bad....you get my drift?


And, IMO, I don't see an "abondonment", but an exploration.....to each their own I suppose.


Thanks... i think. So long as you do not think i am a long time troll. If Asai is trolling i will open the post up with Bzzzzzzzzzz ploop no subtlety there.. Other than that i do try to be provacative sometimes, it seems to work better than subtlety.
 
I think you misintrepreted my statement because i do not see Bioware abandoning the principles of DAO, as you have said more of an exploration of what they can do with those same principles.

Considering that feb 2011 is still a quite a bit away many of the things folks are pissed off about are subject to change. All one has to do is look at the evolution of DAO even up to the last weeks before release some things were dropped or added it is the nature of the beast. I can not give specifics but there were some things Bioware worked on for months and dropped at the last minute because they were not happy with how it turned out. In truth what DA2 is at this moment can and probably will change depending on how workable the ideas may be. The only idea i am not willing to trade is individuality of each character that transcends more than just class and builds, more the personality of the character. I for one am interested to see how the tone of the replies effect replay value. 

Asai 


 No, I myself was the troll, per the actual definition (I read many but never commented).

 To be honest, I hope that BioWare does NOT change anything from what they've gathered from this forum, which is rampant with self-loathing, hypocritical folks who could careless about the actual inner-makings of game developement. 

 As far as replayability; this is my only gripe.................Posted Image

Modifié par B3taMaxxx, 26 juillet 2010 - 08:01 .


#66
Cadarin

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JHByrne wrote...
I've played comp games for a LONG TIME. Long enough, f'rinstance, to still remember Lindley (Alpha Centauri) and the break-in of the notion of NPCs that the player actually cared enough about to get (somewhat) emotional over.


Who was Lindley?  I played the hell out of Alpha Centauri, but outside of the governors and mindworms, I don't even remember any NPCs in that game. 

JHByrne wrote...
My suspicion is that the development team wanted to concentrate more on flash and video clips, and less on storyline. In my opinion as a long-time player of video games, I consider this to be a pedictable mistake of sequel teams. I personally recommend that the storyline ALWAYS comes first, the graphics a distant second. If you look back on the games that were memorable, story-led games always win... flashy graphics games make a good initial sale, but the interest level inevitably wanes and along comes another game to capture the player's attention.

It's all about _possibilities_. Fixating on ONE character (Hawke) seems like a step backward as a plot-device. Sure, the development team gets to make more fancy video-clips... but the loss of player identification, and the narrowing of plot are not worth the limited gain.

-- John Harlow Byrne


I thought that reading about the mindset of your characters in DA:O was pretty fascinating (especially the second one).  It reminded me a lot of the way that I play.  Still, as much as I appreciate that, I  can't see where you're coming from with the "Bioware is just focusing on flash" schtick.  What does limiting the player to one origin even have to do with video clips?   They could just as easily have replaced the human with a dwarf or elf if they were only interested in showing off a bunch of fancy combat cutscenes. 

Personally, I think they've decided to limit the player to Hawke because they're going to give him/her a voice.  It would have been weird to play as a dwarf berserker that sounded like a human noble.  I've always preferred text to voiceacting, but I  kind of gave up on it going away a long time ago.  Even that doesn't bother me too badly because I think Bioware handeled it as well as its ever been done in ME.  I  agree that it sucks that the origins are going away, but I think that's offset by all the cool possibilities the new narrative format can introduce.  Bioware's track record is pretty strong as far as making sure that the story is a priority.  I don't really see them turning DA2 into the next Final Fantasy (19 hours of cutscenes and no plot). 

Modifié par Cadarin, 26 juillet 2010 - 08:46 .


#67
Gaxhung

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You invest time and thought into creating and playing your character, that makes it yours. Bioware defined the world and outline of the character, you fill in what you like.



@mochen

Your characters look really nice, nice.

#68
B3taMaxxx

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You "fill in" what is already determined. That doesn't make my wardens any less mine, but unique? No. The argument whether the warden is yours or not, is purely subjective. The warden, by all means is yours, just not that of your own creation. BioWare created your character before you did, mind you not.

#69
Gaxhung

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Yeah B3taMaxxx, Bioware defined the world and the characters, but when you play, you choose how to play it, like, I can play a racist dwarf, and I have or a slu*ty warrior. Nobody told me I can't play a racist dwarf, Bioware gave me the dwarf, I made him racist.

Modifié par Gaxhung, 26 juillet 2010 - 11:17 .


#70
In Exile

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TheMadCat wrote...

BioWare created the character but that doesn't mean it isn't your character. I guarantee by the end of the game my Warden was different from yours, different from Arttis', different from Gaider's, ect. When you give the player the option to define that character through choices, appearance, direction, abilities, beliefs, and so on the characters become unique from one another despite ultimately fulfilling the same role and purpose at the end of the day.


Well, remind me where with Hawke, you don't make choices, don't select apperance, can't pick direction (what does that even mean?, can't customize abilities, or through actions illustrate beliefs.

I'm really curious, beacuse this exhaustive definition includes all the features confirmed for DA2, and none confirmed not to be in DA2 (such as race).

#71
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Saibh wrote...
Again, you can believe what you like about what does and does not constitute badass, but I rate preventing death in the first place somewhere above decades of death. And, as I recall, all of those Wardens had the backing of all the countries of Thedas, years of experience fighting darkspawn, and hundreds of other Wardens at their side.


Not all the countries in Thedas fought against the blight (Ferelden never did until the 5th Blight, for example). As for other Wardens, I seem to recall our own Warden putting toghether an army of dwarves (potentially with golems, so in everyone before the 1st blight's face) ,elves/werewolves, mages/templars, and humans.

That's four independent factions the Warden can call upon, all four independently governed. Quite the the multinational force, I think. 

Plus, our heroic Warden gets to live only because of Flemeth's plot. Irrelevant because of what he achieved, I'm sure you'll say, and I agree, but note that if Alistair and he die, then this blight likely progresses as all others do. Alternatively, if Duncan lived (David commented on this once) the Grey Wardens would have abandoned Ferelden as a lost cause.

Personally, the only Warden I'd rank above ours is Garahel, who had a much greater challange to overcome, with far less multinational support. All Garahel had were Teyrns from the Free Marches, and Wardens from Orlais and the Anderfels. No elves, no dwarves, no golems.

#72
adi4444

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i dontt care what char i play ...
and i dont care about the changes ....

but only if da2 is true rpg and not hack &slach cr-p!!

Modifié par adi4444, 26 juillet 2010 - 04:16 .


#73
Faust1979

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adi4444 wrote...

i dontt care what char i play ...
and i dont care about the changes ....

but only if da2 is true rpg and not hack &slach cr-p!!


what is a true RPG anyways? why does making a it only a tactical RPG make it a true RPG? Bioware has made different kinds of RPGs over the year but it doesn't make it any less of an RPG because it has some hack and slash elements in it. Besides it doesn't play all that different from the first one, atleast on the console. You still have skills mapped to buttons just like in the first game. They aren't really changing all that much

#74
Bahlgan

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Behindyounow wrote...

The Warden definitely isn't my character. If he was, he would've stabbed Alistair and deserted, instead of that stupid saving the world rubbish.


I do respect your honesty, good sir. Some of us were never meant to lead at all. :P

#75
Bryy_Miller

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Arttis wrote...

Nope it is my character as I paid for the game and now own it.


I love you.