123 réponses à ce sujet

[Ghost Lightning]

Isabelle Mortello wrote...

Titanium Man wrote...

C9316 wrote...

I don't like Tali because of the Talimancers.

...so?  That means nothing.  Hate her for solid reasons, not her fanbase.

How about her poorly designed character and terrible accent?

Izzy, you are so bold. You win.

[Siansonea]

I think it's important to be rational about liking or disliking a character. While I dislike the hypersexualization of Tali, I recognize that much of that attitude is based on factors outside of the character itself. What I dislike about Tali herself has more to do with how she has been adapted and optimized to maximize her appeal to the juvenile fanbase. This is supposed to be a game for grown-ups, right? ("M for Mature", Jack's F-bombs, and all that.) It's the same reason I dislike Ewoks and Jar-Jar Binks. When ostensibly adult franchises appear to pander to the tweens and teens, it irks me. That's what I see in the ME universe with the Tali character, otherwise I probably wouldn't mind the character so much.

[Titanium Man]

Ghost Lightning wrote...

Isabelle Mortello wrote...

Titanium Man wrote...

C9316 wrote...

I don't like Tali because of the Talimancers.

...so?  That means nothing.  Hate her for solid reasons, not her fanbase.

How about her poorly designed character and terrible accent?

Izzy, you are so bold. You win.

Don't make me unleash The Dude again.

[Seth Burns]

Que the fanboys, haters, trolls, flamers, and idiots.



Oh wait. Nevermind, it's happened already. Boy do I love these kind of threads....

[Titanium Man]

Seth Burns wrote...

Que the fanboys, haters, trolls, flamers, and idiots.

Oh wait. Nevermind, it's happened already. Boy do I love these kind of threads....

You're right.  I think we've all proven our stupidity here today.  Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to get my butt kicked by Iron Man.  TITANIUM MAN AWAAAAAAAAAAY~

[Water Dumple]

Thundertactics wrote...

Water Dumple wrote...

I disagree with your specific reasons against the character, but some of the fans are enough to make me hate her as well...

I
might be adding to your hate by saying this and quite frankly, I don't
care, as I have no reason to value your opinion; but sir, that reasoning
is pathetic at best.

It's not reasoning at all, it's a gut response to the problem and one I intentionally choose to ignore. I don't let public opinions affect my views on this, just noting that parts of the fanbase are similarly annoying to other fans of the character. Just last night I posted a couple pages in another thread on why I think she's a well-constructed character (or at least, why I like her).

Unfortunately, a significant portion of the community has completely abandoned rationality and justification, instead dismissing complaints with lines like "haters gonna hate".

Modifié par Water Dumple, 30 juillet 2010 - 05:33 .

[xlavaina]

Siansonea II wrote...

I think it's important to be rational about liking or disliking a character. While I dislike the hypersexualization of Tali, I recognize that much of that attitude is based on factors outside of the character itself. What I dislike about Tali herself has more to do with how she has been adapted and optimized to maximize her appeal to the juvenile fanbase. This is supposed to be a game for grown-ups, right? ("M for Mature", Jack's F-bombs, and all that.) It's the same reason I dislike Ewoks and Jar-Jar Binks. When ostensibly adult franchises appear to pander to the tweens and teens, it irks me. That's what I see in the ME universe with the Tali character, otherwise I probably wouldn't mind the character so much.

I understand what you're saying, but don't forget about a couple of things. Tali survived on her own without Shepard's help for two years. She completed her pilgrimage by herself, she led a special ops team to recover Veetor and then, on the personal orders of the Admiralty board, went to Haestrom, a planet deep in Geth controlled space with only a twelve member marine team to go gather information. She is certainly not a "tween / teen" type of character. Instead, she has simply been through a lot, her mother died, her father is screwed up, etc. Obviously, the fleet does not see her as a distraught damsel in distress, but rather a valuable leader and member of the community. 

Addressing the comment on Jack, I believe that she was supposed to be the extreme rather than the norm. Tali is definitely closer to the least extreme, but not as much as someone like Kasumi. Just understand that Bioware needed to add balance to the squad. Having all the characters like Jack would be obscene, and would turn a lot of gamers away.

I just think that she kind of melts around Shepard because she likes him. Just don't forget about her other traits when categorizing her like that. Also according to her conversation with Garrus, she has a shotgun. 

Edit: btw I completely agree with the "hypersexualization", it is a bit extreme, especially after reading some of these forums. 

Modifié par xlavaina, 30 juillet 2010 - 05:58 .

[Water Dumple]

xlavaina wrote...
Addressing the comment on Jack, I believe that she was supposed to be the extreme rather than the norm. Tali is definitely closer to the least extreme, but not as much as someone like Kasumi. Just understand that Bioware needed to add balance to the squad. Having all the characters like Jack would be obscene, and would turn a lot of gamers away.

Indeed, if there wasn't such a wide range of characters and personalities, Shepard's team just wouldn't feel the same. Each piece of the Normandy feels slightly different based on the character inhabiting it--Going into Life Support, you can expect a lot of philosophy and theology; in the Cargo Bay, the subject is on the ethics and results of genetic engineering, and so on. Unfortunately, while this variety means that just about everyone is sure to like some character or other, it also develops adverse feelings toward other characters, and this odd sort of "faction system" the forum has developed isn't helping.

Edit: btw I completely agree with the "hypersexualization", it is a bit extreme, especially after reading some of these forums.

Yeah...what bugs me about this is that almost all of the hypersexualization seems to have originated from the fans, rather than the actual character design. Before I came to the forum, I was actually thinking about how BioWare did a good job keeping any character from being too oversexed...God, was I wrong about the way the community took it.

Modifié par Water Dumple, 30 juillet 2010 - 06:29 .

[xlavaina]

Water Dumple wrote...

xlavaina wrote...
Addressing the comment on Jack, I believe that she was supposed to be the extreme rather than the norm. Tali is definitely closer to the least extreme, but not as much as someone like Kasumi. Just understand that Bioware needed to add balance to the squad. Having all the characters like Jack would be obscene, and would turn a lot of gamers away.

Indeed, if there wasn't such a wide range of characters and personalities, Shepard's team just wouldn't feel the same. Each piece of the Normandy feels slightly different based on the character inhabiting it--Going into Life Support, you can expect a lot of philosophy and theology; in the Cargo Bay, the subject is on the ethics and results of genetic engineering, and so on. Unfortunately, while this variety means that just about everyone is sure to like some character or other, it also develops adverse feelings toward other characters, and this odd sort of "faction system" the forum has developed isn't helping.

Edit: btw I completely agree with the "hypersexualization", it is a bit extreme, especially after reading some of these forums.

Yeah...what bugs me about this is that almost all of the hypersexualization seems to have originated from the fans, rather than the actual character design. Before I came to the forum, I was actually thinking about how BioWare did a good job keeping any character from being too oversexed...God, was I wrong about the way the community took it.

I can tell we will agree on this subject. Yeah I came to these forums to get more Mass Effect, not... err... well you know what I mean if you google "Mass Effect 2 Tali" with safesearch off. Tali's character is cool to me because of the mystery surrounding her, not because of her romance. The fans just blew this out of proportion. I'm a Tali fan, but not in that way, she was my favorite since ME1, before the romance.

Anyway, you're right about the Normandy too. There have to be some playful characters on the ship, or the atmosphere would be terrible (AO rated game if everyone was like Jack?). Kasumi and Tali need to be there to add a degree of playful balance. Jack and Grunt need to be there to add the primal and blood-crazy personalities. As you said, Thane is arguably one of the smartest, and definitely the most philosophical. Don't forget, he is very religious. Just as Tali might seem too "childish" to an extremely hardcore gamer, Thane might seem too superstitious to an atheist (and I'm not bashing religion here, nor am I calling religion superstitious, it was just my choice of words). 

Not every character will resonate with every fan, for me, it was and always has been Tali and Garrus.

Modifié par xlavaina, 30 juillet 2010 - 06:38 .

[Siansonea]

xlavaina wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

I think it's important to be rational about liking or disliking a character. While I dislike the hypersexualization of Tali, I recognize that much of that attitude is based on factors outside of the character itself. What I dislike about Tali herself has more to do with how she has been adapted and optimized to maximize her appeal to the juvenile fanbase. This is supposed to be a game for grown-ups, right? ("M for Mature", Jack's F-bombs, and all that.) It's the same reason I dislike Ewoks and Jar-Jar Binks. When ostensibly adult franchises appear to pander to the tweens and teens, it irks me. That's what I see in the ME universe with the Tali character, otherwise I probably wouldn't mind the character so much.

I understand what you're saying, but don't forget about a couple of things. Tali survived on her own without Shepard's help for two years. She completed her pilgrimage by herself, she led a special ops team to recover Veetor and then, on the personal orders of the Admiralty board, went to Haestrom, a planet deep in Geth controlled space with only a twelve member marine team to go gather information. She is certainly not a "tween / teen" type of character. Instead, she has simply been through a lot, her mother died, her father is screwed up, etc. Obviously, the fleet does not see her as a distraught damsel in distress, but rather a valuable leader and member of the community. 

Addressing the comment on Jack, I believe that she was supposed to be the extreme rather than the norm. Tali is definitely closer to the least extreme, but not as much as someone like Kasumi. Just understand that Bioware needed to add balance to the squad. Having all the characters like Jack would be obscene, and would turn a lot of gamers away.

I just think that she kind of melts around Shepard because she likes him. Just don't forget about her other traits when categorizing her like that. Also according to her conversation with Garrus, she has a shotgun. 

Edit: btw I completely agree with the "hypersexualization", it is a bit extreme, especially after reading some of these forums. 

I see your point, but part of the problem for me is that the character's emotional hooks seem too obvious. To some extent all fictional characters are designed and intended to appeal to the audience's emotions, but when they pluck a little too loudly on the heart strings it turns me off. Most people's response to Tali is either the aforementioned 'dat ass', or something along the line's of 'awwwww, I just want to help/hug her'. It's no secret that young people tend to feel alienated, alone, misunderstood, etc., so the Tali character's trials and tribulations seem tailor-made to access those feelings. Practically every time we meet Tali in the game, we're coming to her rescue. To me that's an obvious attempt to appeal to young males' desires. We rescue her from Fist's goons, we rescue her from the YMIR mech on Freedom's Progress (she doesn't even participate in the fight), we rescue her from the geth on Haestrom, and we rescue her from being exiled by the Migrant Fleet. She's the archtype of the damsel in distress, albeit masked in 'plucky heroine' clothing. And then there's 'dat ass', of course, and the mystique of her face-obscuring mask. The puppet strings are just too visible to me. It's the "I see what you did there" phenomenon.

I like characters who work on a more subtle level. A lot of people are completely unsympathetic to Samara's situation, for example, because on the surface she's distant and uncompromising, people often think she's arrogant or elitist. When you look deeper into the character you realize that she has an impossible situation to deal with, and yet she deals with it with poise and without pity or remorse. Shepard's help is invaluable, but not necessary to completing her task. And at no point is she 'rescued' by Shepard. Even at the end of her loyalty mission, Shepard merely tips the balance of power between Samara and Morinth. And if Shepard makes the wrong choice, she accepts her fate, leaving Shepard with nothing but a warning that his actions will come back to haunt him. Now THAT is a character I can relate to.

[Cypher0020]

I a Tali fan, but after replaying ME1 just now, I see her as the kid sister type.. I think Shepard is roughly nine to ten years older than her anyways...

[NuclearBuddha]

Cypher0020 wrote...

I a Tali fan, but after replaying ME1 just now, I see her as the kid sister type.. I think Shepard is roughly nine to ten years older than her anyways...

24 - 31 (and Shepard wasn't alive for two of those years)

[KendallX23]

NuclearBuddha wrote...

Cypher0020 wrote...

I a Tali fan, but after replaying ME1 just now, I see her as the kid sister type.. I think Shepard is roughly nine to ten years older than her anyways...

24 - 31 (and Shepard wasn't alive for two of those years)

    in any case tali is younger...to young for Shep..

[NuclearBuddha]

KendallX23 wrote...

NuclearBuddha wrote...
24 - 31 (and Shepard wasn't alive for two of those years)

    in any case tali is younger...to young for Shep..

Now I'm curious what the age limits are.

Does that make Jack too young as well and Miranda too old?  How about Liara?

[ElectricZ]

NuclearBuddha wrote...

KendallX23 wrote...

NuclearBuddha wrote...
24 - 31 (and Shepard wasn't alive for two of those years)

    in any case tali is younger...to young for Shep..

Now I'm curious what the age limits are.

Does that make Jack too young as well and Miranda too old?  How about Liara?

Isn't the commonly accepted rule, "Half the man's age, plus 7?"

Shep's 31, half that (rounded up) plus 7 is 23...

[KendallX23]

liara is 150 if i remember right...dunno the others

[NuclearBuddha]

KendallX23 wrote...

liara is 150 if i remember right...dunno the others

106, I think.  Miranda's 35.  And Jack... hmmm, I thought she was 25, but I see now she's got no listed age.  Bad example.

[KendallX23]

sssshhh....Cerberus wants us in a dark about Jack..so we don't find out to much about her(erm..what we don't already know anyway

[NuclearBuddha]

ElectricZ wrote...
Isn't the commonly accepted rule, "Half the man's age, plus 7?"

Shep's 31, half that (rounded up) plus 7 is 23...

I've never heard that, but since it seems to put Tali in the acceptable range even giving Shep credit for the two years he didn't live, I'll go with it.  Since that was my point in the first place.

[normandy1]

look she was insrtumintal in mass 1 good in mass 2 hope she is as good or better in mass three may be she can work with cerberus to find a way to erase the geth. o it's not rasist or genicide if as a people u wipe alawy what u make

[Mecha Tengu]

Isabelle Mortello wrote...

Titanium Man wrote...

C9316 wrote...

I don't like Tali because of the Talimancers.

...so?  That means nothing.  Hate her for solid reasons, not her fanbase.

How about her poorly designed character and terrible accent?

oh crap here comes the nerds...

[Mecha Tengu]

forgive me

what I meant to say was the zerg rush of butthurt horny fans who will defend their internet girlfriend when insulted

Modifié par Mecha Tengu, 30 juillet 2010 - 08:37 .