96 réponses à ce sujet

[kamal_]

nino1979 wrote...

Plus what they did not apply in game is Sense Aligment feat.That's a thing that Paladin or BlackGuard use to figure if u are goody or psycho;and Paladin wise they are actully militant hands of their gods not some wimpy cleric or monk,so as it goes if u are evil u die,no bargins or remorse.

Alignment detection abilities make short work of many plot types. Murder mystery? Detect evil! There's the evil guy! Yes there's things like amulets of non-detection, but it becomes rather silly when the party finds an amulet on every murderer to prevent the player shortcutting the story with Detect Alignment etc. It's a problem in pnp, and it's worse in a computer game without having the flexibility of a dm.

[PJ156]

Hmmm just cos your evil does not mean you are the bad guy. In a room of twenty perhaps there are 15 neutrals or evil. Don't mean they did it ...

There might be a CG or two; don't mean they are innocent. Even a lawful good or two, it's not about who did it but why they did it.

I don't disagree with Kamal_ his point is correct IMO, the game mechanics are what they are. I just think these things are handled too simply.

Path of evil ... could be renamed "The path I choose". Why does your character follow that path, well that's for you to decide and that is role playing.

Sorry, have not read the whole thread so if I am quoting others then I have friends out there

PJ

Modifié par PJ156, 28 octobre 2011 - 08:58 .

[Jezla]

I think the real difficulty in playing evil characters comes from limitations in the medium. A CRPG is more accurately a "choose your own adventure" game, rather than a true role-playing game (in single-player games). Thus you're limited in your choice of good or evil acts to what the author thinks those alignments would choose. Too often this is either the completely selfless hero or the greedy psychopath. I think Mass Effect, with it's Paragon/Renegade, dealt with this the best, since it didn't shoehorn your character into a particular philosophy and then penalize you for deviating from that.

Re: Kamal's post about alignment detection abilities being a problem for certain plot types. I disagree. Good characters could commit an evil act without necessarily shifting their alignment to evil, particularly if the rest of their actions tend to be good, and an evil character may refrain from commiting an evil act, and thus would be innocent of the crime being investigated.

[Sarielle]

Old thread, I know, but I love these conversations.

Bayz wrote...

yeah...roleplay a Lawful Evil character and you'll end up Lawful Good statwise, funny, and disturbing at the same time.

Hah, you do indeed! I was particularly irritated trying to play a lawful evil warlock because of this. She was methodical, typically pleasant (Beguiling Influence let her turn up the charm, and I gave her high charisma anyway), and utterly powerhungry.

She killed if she deemed it most expedient, but played nice with the powerful. She didn't bluff, and kept bargains she made. She rarely told people to ****** off in so many words, but she wouldn't stick her neck out for anybody if it cost her something. If it cost her nothing...why not? She'd have someone grateful to her who might be useful later if she needed a favor.

...and I ended up in the console because she went lawful neutral, well on her way to good.


As to chaotic evil...yeah, most people picture the megalomaniacal psychopath, but that's imo a very childish view of the alignment (and is actually chaotic stupid). Play a character who disregards authority figures, lies to achieve goals, breaks bargains, and kills when it could be avoided? There you go, believable chaotic evil with logical reasons for their actions.

Bishop was a great example of a well-written chaotic evil character, right up till then end when he went all "herp a derp" and ended firmly in chaotic stupid territory.


I find the "you are playing a representation of yourself" arguement very old and tired. No, really, my **** of a bard or my true neutral male druid aren't really anything like me at all. If anything, I'd put myself on the border between lawful good and lawful neutral in real life. Just because I myself am methodical and generally law-abiding doesn't mean I can't consistently put myself in the shoes of someone who is neither of those things (or who is male). Once I have a believable (and fairly detailed) set of values for a character, I find they're very easy to play that way until the end.

[FuerstderSchatten]

i think its pretty easy to play as an chaotic evil player in both nwn and nwn2. i always do that because i always take a "dark paladin" as a premium class (dont know how it is named excactly in english), i always do a lot of good things like give money to poor in nwn for example the ill prostitute in nwn 1 or say i dont have any money instead but im very sorry for your life (even if i have a lot). Sometimes you have to be mean like forcing people to give you more money as reward, for example "threat" people in nwn 1 to give more money in houses of upper and middle class, always nice in the richer quarters, because i think they have enough money anyway and have funny reactions, gives this robin hood style, or say you are collecting taxes, but after all i defeat bad guys and make their lifes safe so i think the extra "reward" is justified. I remind myself on one occasion where i could get a ring for saving a baby in nwn 1, but saying you want the a reward or the task giver dont get the baby gives bad points but as she accepts it, saying she could keep the ring after getting the evil points because you have changed your mind is also a nice method too. To stay chaotic is even easier because most of the money things give chaotic points instead of evil points. Seldom i have to do real "bad things" like letting the villain escape or free a bad deamon, in NWN 1 first chapter for example but get a reward out of it too, sometimes i can even kill the deamon afterwards, getting the evil points and the reward so its ok. I always accomplish to stay chaotic evil that way all the game and have a good feeling by doing it that way and can most reflect myself into my character because im greedy (i think like everyone out of mother theresa).

What i dont do is always taking the worst sentence or insult people all the time im not stupid evil, im just a normal person who thinks of myself first thats the spirit of a normal chaotic evil player, not slaughtering around, though that is a form of chaotic evil too i guess, i guess im just playing scarce to a chaotic neutral player.

Modifié par FuerstderSchatten, 31 octobre 2011 - 07:46 .

[nino1979]

@Jezla:True what u say;for instance killers that tend to kill evil guys are good(Paladin,nop sorry they aren't saints of virtue,cause they kill and lookin' at it u are takin' someones life so yea sure you are saint and halo all the way);and evil guys that refrain from killing are rather scared of repricussions or it might not work with their plan;wich tends to make them lawfull. Bishop wise he's toon of evil in my opinion cause he's plain silly....

[FuerstderSchatten]

nino1979 wrote...

@Jezla:True what u say;for instance killers that tend to kill evil guys are good(Paladin,nop sorry they aren't saints of virtue,cause they kill and lookin' at it u are takin' someones life so yea sure you are saint and halo all the way);and evil guys that refrain from killing are rather scared of repricussions or it might not work with their plan;wich tends to make them lawfull. Bishop wise he's toon of evil in my opinion cause he's plain silly....

 At the end of NWN 2 the Shadow king said to the paladin that i have done all the time bad things too, (which i didnt) so why stay with me, and the paladin answers that he is the greater threat to the world, i cant understand why siding with the shadow king by bishop because he will die in the end if the shadow king takes over the land, so its mere stupid to ally with him.

[Sarielle]

FuerstderSchatten wrote...
i cant understand why siding with the shadow king by bishop because he will die in the end if the shadow king takes over the land, so its mere stupid to ally with him.

Yeah, that really made me mad. Not that Bishop would betray -- it suited his character well -- but that he'd betray my PC to side with the thing ending the world.

It's like the writers did a really great job spinning an interesting evil character, and then at the end they let an intern write his ending. The intern went "chaotic evil, lolK" and proceeded to make all the players go "WFT is Bishop smoking?" That's why I said that act was "chaotic stupid" rather than chaotic evil.


EDIT: It occurs to me I do have a hard time being mean to certain characters. OK, I think I only have a hard time being mean to Deekin in the original NWN.

Modifié par Sarielle, 31 octobre 2011 - 08:53 .

[nino1979]

@Sairelle: eeek!! U have some weird lizard fetish or somethin'(cause of smiley),Deek is to funny to make fun or to beat down mentally or psyhically. I mean an kobold and bard,well that takes it to new level,and it's humiltating as it is.Me I am happy to bully anyone;Bishop I hit with with ugly stick and sword almost every time,Elanee here is an exmple:hiya wolf druid crunnnch!!;ohh sorry steped on your neck;Casavir go find someone else to snivel at;Shandra woluld left in that burnin' cottage if could.As u may notice I "love" everyone so very,very much..my only respect goes to Golem and Stumpy and no not Grobnar.

[Sarielle]

NWN2 SPOILER:



...Elanee gets murderated in my game every time, as soon as possible. She also gets dumped at the inn ASAP. Cannot tolerate her, lol.


Everyone else it's usually hit or miss. I typically play more neutral characters so I get along with most people at one playthrough or another...Not too many with Bishop, but I remember running a chaotic neutral ranger he seemed to get along with.

But yeah. I can't be mean to Deekin ever, lol. He's such a pathetic creature anyways. xD

[nino1979]

Btw,Casavir is lamest excuse for paladin I ever seen;If I play one there is two words that define me: no pity no remorse,no compassion for any evil person...and uhh,those are 3 words actually .

[FuerstderSchatten]

i have never done any harm to any of my fellow companions, ok deekin named me i think "bad man" or something similar in english because i yelled at him, just wanting to know where the damn artifact is.

Modifié par FuerstderSchatten, 01 novembre 2011 - 03:11 .

[Sarielle]

nino1979 wrote...

Btw,Casavir is lamest excuse for paladin I ever seen;If I play one there is two words that define me: no pity no remorse,no compassion for any evil person...and uhh,those are 3 words actually .

Casavir is the lame in more ways than one. They don't have to make the "good" romance option so hellishly tedious and dull. Even when NOT playing evil, my characters never gave him the time of day.

Modifié par Sarielle, 01 novembre 2011 - 03:16 .

[Bayz]

Sarielle wrote...

Hah, you do indeed! I was particularly irritated trying to play a lawful evil warlock because of this. She was methodical, typically pleasant (Beguiling Influence let her turn up the charm, and I gave her high charisma anyway), and utterly powerhungry.

She killed if she deemed it most expedient, but played nice with the
powerful. She didn't bluff, and kept bargains she made. She rarely told
people to ****** off in so many words, but she wouldn't stick her neck
out for anybody if it cost her something. If it cost her nothing...why
not? She'd have someone grateful to her who might be useful later if she
needed a favor.

...and I ended up in the console because she
went lawful neutral, well on her way to good.

Same when I play my evil characters. Apparently game devs tend to see the D&D world as so straightforward and hipocrisy (sp?) lacking than a powerhungry amoral and corrupt to the boot adventurer MUST be good, because...uhhh he speaks nice to people. Yeah he burned down that town he saved from a dragon after they didn't paid him more money for it, because they would starve if they did, but he asked stuff politely, so he must be a lovely man to have around, right?... RIGHT?

It is the same as saying that you are not evil if your armor is not black and filled with spikes and skulls and your eyes are not glowing red...

Sarielle wrote...

As to chaotic evil...yeah, most people picture the megalomaniacal psychopath, but that's imo a very childish view of the alignment (and is actually chaotic stupid). Play a character who disregards authority figures, lies to achieve goals, breaks bargains, and kills when it could be avoided? There you go, believable chaotic evil with logical reasons for their actions.

Bishop was a great example of a well-written chaotic evil character, right up till then end when he went all "herp a derp" and ended firmly in chaotic stupid territory.

Which leads me to another point. Look, Chaotic Evil characters ARE NOT seeing actually as that. Chaotic Evil PLAYER CHARACTERS are the ones looked in that light. Bishop, is ok but look at Sarevok from Bladur's Gate, look at bloody Melissan from Throne of Bhaal, THEY ARE Chaotic Evil. So yeah if they are NPC they can be what you would expect of a sentinent creature being bastards, if it is the player character they have to be retarded...because apparently only retards would like to play Chaotic Evil, but well once upon a time game devs also thought that only white straight overweight acne ridden males played videogames and we are a long way from there now, or so I like to think.

Sarielle wrote...
I find the "you are playing a representation of yourself" arguement very old and tired. No, really, my **** of a bard or my true neutral male druid aren't really anything like me at all. If anything, I'd put myself on the border between lawful good and lawful neutral in real life. Just because I myself am methodical and generally law-abiding doesn't mean I can't consistently put myself in the shoes of someone who is neither of those things (or who is male). Once I have a believable (and fairly detailed) set of values for a character, I find they're very easy to play that way until the end.

I have and easy, mildly inflamatory answer for that. You cannot play as yourself because you are playing with a "Chaotic Good Level 5 Human Fighter", not a "True Neutral Level 1 Human-ish Nerd", We cannot play as ourselves and we are NOT supposed to. Dwarves, Elves, Half Orcs, etc are human creations, but they are meant to be "different enough" from humans that it would be a nice experience playing as them. Same with female characters in my case, male characters in female players.

Videogaming IS an act of scapism, more interactive than watching movies, reading books, but still having the same end, to allow you a brief break from your normal life. Playing videogames as a character you are thinking as "you" and that must act as "you do" is the closest thing of playing wrong it could get IMO (there is not actual wrong way to roleplay for me, though)...

I consider myself to be Lawful Good, but the fatherless bastards I have around consider me Neutral Evil. That's why I put some PCP in their milk tonight, good luck tomorrow with the lectures! I am a perfectly Lawful Good person, I say good morning with a smile in my face to the old lady next door so, that's +10 in Good in my book

nino1979 wrote...
Btw,Casavir is lamest excuse for paladin I ever seen;If I play one there
is two words that define me: no pity no remorse,no compassion for any
evil person...and uhh,those are 3 words actually .

When I play as a Paladin, my chief weapon is surprise, and fear, two my two weapons are fear and surprise and ruthless efficiency, THREE, my three weapons are fear, surprise ruthless efficiency and an almost fanatical devotion to my God, my FOUR weapons...

I dunno I never play the same class the same way...depends on the backstory I invented for the character specifically, more than the character itself, Casavir was meh, I've seen worse, but I would liked him be more like Keldorn...but hey, what you gonna do? I also wanted Callum in my party so...

nino1979 wrote...
Casavir is the lame in more ways than one. They don't have to make the
"good" romance option so hellishly tedious and dull. Even when NOT
playing evil, my characters never gave him the time of day.

Well, if you played a male you have to settle with the creepy stalker who lived in a swamp filled with dead people and have leaves falling from her hair all the time.Elanee is going to introduce you to love and a huge variety of STD's never seen before in the Realms. Honestly, when I saw that cutscene my first reaction was "Really? the hobo?" but hey, I guess some people are into that, not gonna judge.

Casavir wasn't the best to be honest I kind of see why people wanted a romance with Bishop instead but, well...it wasn't as tedious as Anomen at least. I haven't been able to advance in that romance ever and I have finished BG2 with six female characters so far, it's just that I can't stand the "daddy doesn't love me" crap. Honestly in BG2 I was all for a Korgan romance but the skies were closed again for me, so all my female PC are celibate. (It is not the only romance I have issues with in BG)

Wouldn't have minded giving them to Keldorn either but again "he was married" (despite having his wife cheating and my female half orc ready for love) so...

Modifié par Bayz, 01 novembre 2011 - 10:24 .

[Dann-J]

nino1979 wrote...

Plus what they did not apply in game is Sense Aligment feat.

I implemented a 'wand of sense alignment' in Isle of Shrines, that was one of the ways of solving a particular quest. I can't imagine it's a very useful ability in general though, unless it distinguishes between lawful and chaotic. A chaotic good bard is more likely to pick your pocket than any lawful evil character is.

[Bayz]

I would like to see them implementing it in a game on Ravenloft ^^ just for laughs

[Sarielle]

Bayz wrote...

Same when I play my evil characters. Apparently game devs tend to see the D&D world as so straightforward and hipocrisy (sp?) lacking than a powerhungry amoral and corrupt to the boot adventurer MUST be good, because...uhhh he speaks nice to people. Yeah he burned down that town he saved from a dragon after they didn't paid him more money for it, because they would starve if they did, but he asked stuff politely, so he must be a lovely man to have around, right?... RIGHT?

It is the same as saying that you are not evil if your armor is not black and filled with spikes and skulls and your eyes are not glowing red...


-snip-

So yeah if they are NPC they can be what you would expect of a sentinent creature being bastards, if it is the player character they have to be retarded...because apparently only retards would like to play Chaotic Evil, but well once upon a time game devs also thought that only white straight overweight acne ridden males played videogames and we are a long way from there now, or so I like to think.

Sarielle wrote...
Casavir is the lame in more ways than one. They don't have to make the
"good" romance option so hellishly tedious and dull. Even when NOT
playing evil, my characters never gave him the time of day.

Casavir wasn't the best to be honest I kind of see why people wanted a romance with Bishop instead but, well...it wasn't as tedious as Anomen at least.

Yeah, it seems the devs never considered an affably evil character when they coded the alignment system in, lol. Although I suppose it's very difficult for computer code to recognize intent, and intelligent evil will likely masquerade as good as much as possible.

And yeah, Bishop was at least interesting. As long as your girl realized she couldn't trust him any further than she could throw him (and he never makes any attempt to pretend to be other than he is), and was only in it for a temporary fling, he wasn't a terrible choice to be honest.

And LOL on Elanee.The stalker thing was plenty enough to turn off all of my dudes in NWN2. Incidentally my Fem playthroughs of DAII have ended up alone in the end as well. If Varric had been an option, maybe...otherwise you get an elf that comes across both childish and slightly dim, an STD extravaganza, a broody self-loather or another self-loather with multiple personalities.

...don't get me wrong, they were interesting, and I've befriended some of them, but romantically? My girls know better, lol.

Modifié par Sarielle, 02 novembre 2011 - 10:27 .

[I_Raps]

Bayz wrote...

I would like to see them implementing it in a game on Ravenloft ^^ just for laughs

They could use the script for opening blastglobe barrels for activating it.

[Bayz]

Well I meant it because Detect Evil doesn't actually work in Ravenloft...

Except for a Lawful Evil Paladin\\Blackguard called Elena Faith-hold, who is a Darklord that believes she is Lawful Good and that she must destroy the evil on Ravenloft. She casts a special form of detect evil that goes like this:

"Detect Evil (Sp): Elena believes that she can still detect evil, as per the spell. Furthermore, she believes that the inability of other spellcasters in Ravenloft to detect evil is a sure sign of their spiritual impurity. In truth, this ability performs just as the detect evil spell — except that instead of evil, Elena actually detects any strong emotions that the target creatures may feel toward her. Sadly, this ability does not distinguish between emotions. Elena interprets both the burning hatred of her foes and the boundless love of a suitor as purest evil, and lashes out at each."

Modifié par Bayz, 03 novembre 2011 - 06:38 .

[nino1979]

Playing as Evil Character just takes a proper mindset and bit o dedication.My newest additon to the no-dogooders of Ferun is Isair FellHeart;Lawfull Evil Tiefling Warlock.Actually he's Cambion with no wings due to feindish herittage.So here is how I play him :weak suffer as it should be,strong are to be respected 'till I can char them to ash or am stronger then them.Khelgar is arrowbait/meatshield;Casavir I laugh at;Stalker I kill;Qara I send to Batoor,same for Bishop;gnome I ignore or ridcule;Pesant's girl fate is sealed but that doesn't matter beacuse i'll make her life a misery that she will wish it happend sooner;Golem is Clanker that serves it's master so we are good;gnome I ignore or hide in basement;Sand is usefull for one thing only trial;Zahjevee she patches me up so I tolerate her;goat-girl so what if u are Tielfilng u complain and squeal like rest but since ur daddy is big 'ol Pit Fiend I'll respect u and tolerate u;Ammon,poor misarable Ammon,your soul taste so sweet in MotB and seen u all frustrated is such delicous irony.After all what rest of u are;nothing but tools for me to reach King of Shadows...

[Merlex]

The Fred wrote...

...Also, consciences don't matter so much because virtual people won't suffer if you chose to do something evil, since non of it's actually real.

Well in another 'dragon' game (2). I'm playing a good guy. But there is a quest where you can gain a talent, if you make a certain evil decision. I gave in to temptation, and it really bugs me. I know given the same choice, i'd do it again. But i really do feel guilty. I know it's just a game. Anyway...

As for D&D, i've played LE often. But i also play CG and LN just as often. It's a roleplaying game and i don't just play roles simular to myself. It's like an actor playing a part. There are actors and actresses who are very good at playing the villian. That doesn't mean they are evil in real life, They are just playing a role.

In NWN2 my LE character was a mage. I looked for motivation of why this character will turn out evil, why would he seek to control the dead. Why would do the things he does. Because "true evil is a journey, not a light switch" Lex Luther. Both my character and Amie were apprentices of Tarmas. They were close, and her death change my character's worldview.

He doesn't see himself as evil. He cares for his companions and for the world. He seeks to control every situation, all of life's circumstances, and even controlling death. This is for the 'greater good'. By controlling EVERYTHING he is helping the world, and will not have to feel that pain again. And he can spare those he cares about that kind of pain as well. But pain is part of life. A lesson he refuses to learn.

As for low level mages, i found Melee Mages do very well early on, and all through the game really. Early spells like mage armor, shield, magic weapon, ghostly visage, and bull's strength work great. They are buffs and stay up a while. Use control spells like sleep, curse of impending blades and web. They set up other party members' atttacks. IMHO a mage is at his or her best as a battlefield controller, not a blaster. Hope this helps.   

Modifié par Merlex, 09 novembre 2011 - 12:14 .

[Sarielle]

^Your evil guy sounds very interesting. I like the rationalization.