101 réponses à ce sujet

[errant_knight]

Lady Dino wrote...

BramAlam12345 wrote...

If you believe that Katriel is Alistair's mother, than Maric's treatment of Alistair makes more sense. Katriel wanted her son to be free of the burdens of both his parents and convinced Maric to follow her wishes in this matter.

I like the idea of K being A's mom, even though it is "kinda" contradicted in Origins. The Maric in the books doesn't seem the type to chase after peasant washer-women. In fact, he doesn't seem the type to have random flings at all.

Although I also kinda wish this was true, I think you are talking about Fiona not Katriel.

 I have trouble giving him any kind of credit for that, given that being the bastard son of a maid is hardly likely to result in a fulfilling life. I'd think better of him if Alistair is exactly who he thinks he is, and even then, not by much. If he is the son of Maric and Fiona, his parents pretty much left him to twist in the wind.

[Clover Rider]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Even if Fiona is the mother and Maric was just trying to give his son a better life...that does NOT excuse him for letting Eamon up and send him to the Chantry to be enslaved as a Templar.

Well Eamon imo comes off as a crazy old man .

[BramAlam12345]

Is becoming a Templar so bad considering the other options? Eamon's new wife really didn't like Alistair. Eamon couldn't let him continue living at court.

[Addai]

errant_knight wrote...
 I have trouble giving him any kind of credit for that, given that being the bastard son of a maid is hardly likely to result in a fulfilling life. I'd think better of him if Alistair is exactly who he thinks he is, and even then, not by much. If he is the son of Maric and Fiona, his parents pretty much left him to twist in the wind.

Why would you think better of Maric if Alistair's mother is Random Servant Girl?

[Sarah1281]

BramAlam12345 wrote...

Is becoming a Templar so bad considering the other options? Eamon's new wife really didn't like Alistair. Eamon couldn't let him continue living at court.

Alistair wasn't living at court, he was living at Redcliffe castle and, assuming Alistair wasn't exaggerating, in the stables. Being a Templar is a horrible fate where you are enslaved to a corrupt Chantry, cannot ever escape it or else you'll go mad from lyrium deprivation, have celibacy forced on you, and have to hunt down mages for a living.

A better option than this? Teagan. He's clearly fond of Alistair, has his own title and land, and no stupid, petty wife whose wishes make him screw over the child he was entrusted to take care of and give a better life than the one he would have had with Maric.

Edit: And who cares if Isolde didn't like Alistair? If Alistair were Eamon's son, perhaps from an earlier marriage, then Isolde still may not have liked him but would Eamon have so easily thrown him away to appease her? We have no evidence she gave him an ultimatum and if she did then shame on her for being so petty and selfish and shame on him for choosing someone who would do that over an innocent ten-year-old that he was supposed to be watching over.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 27 juillet 2010 - 08:36 .

[Addai]

BramAlam12345 wrote...

Is becoming a Templar so bad considering the other options? Eamon's new wife really didn't like Alistair. Eamon couldn't let him continue living at court.

Alistair could have been squired out to any noble household in the land if Eamon had really wanted it.  Or even abroad, as Nathaniel Howe was.  The templars meant he was under a heavy thumb, however, unable to upset the royal applecart.  Eventually he would be under vows and addicted to lyrium, unable to raise rebellions but around in case they needed a spare.

Modifié par Addai67, 27 juillet 2010 - 08:40 .

[Lady Dino]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Even if Fiona is the mother and Maric was just trying to give his son a better life...that does NOT excuse him for letting Eamon up and send him to the Chantry to be enslaved as a Templar.

True, I'll give you that. But what if Maric didn't know about it? I have a theory, if you will, that Eamon didn't tell Maric that his jealous wife sent Alistair away. 

Think about it. Eamon is a politician after all, and his marriage to Isolde alone put him in a very bad position. Back that up with the fact that King Maric was, most likely, one of the few who supported Eamon through that ordeal and then have the same wife going into fits over an already mistreated bastard, who just happens to be the son of said King. This makes Eamon's situation worse, so what does he do? He lies of course. Maric would probably trust his brother in law enough to believe him at his word, and even if Loghain knew about the arrangement he would undoubtedly support the idea, thinking it the more practical route; and him not telling Maric is a given, I think.

Are there holes in this theory? Of course there are! Is it still remotely possible? Slightly!

Honestly, I feel this fits better with both Maric's personality and with Fiona's wish to have her son, have a normal life. The former being because Maric doesn't seem the kind to me to leave that kind of shunning be, especially to his own son bastard or not, and the latter being because I think that's how Eamon would rationalize abandoning Alistair there, to him self.

All the same it's just a theory.

Modifié par Lady Dino, 27 juillet 2010 - 08:46 .

[Sarah1281]

I suppose that's plausible. Still, it's not very smart of Eamon to abandon Maric's son when if Maric ever found out he'd lose all of that political clout with the King he was trying to preserve.

[Avilia]

Addai67 wrote...

BramAlam12345 wrote...

Is becoming a Templar so bad considering the other options? Eamon's new wife really didn't like Alistair. Eamon couldn't let him continue living at court.

Alistair could have been squired out to any noble household in the land if Eamon had really wanted it.  Or even abroad, as Nathaniel Howe was.  The templars meant he was under a heavy thumb, however, unable to upset the royal applecart.  Eventually he would be under vows and addicted to lyrium, unable to raise rebellions but around in case they needed a spare.

Except he was conscripted by Duncan.  Do we know if Duncan knew before or after the fact that Alistair was Maric's son?

I don't know enough about the lore and books to posit a theory myself but it almost seems as if Duncan had ulterior motives for rescuing Alistair.  Or am I reading too much into it?

[Lady Dino]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I suppose that's plausible. Still, it's not very smart of Eamon to abandon Maric's son when if Maric ever found out he'd lose all of that political clout with the King he was trying to preserve.

I agree with Addia67 on this point. Making Alistair a Templar would give Eamon much more control over his life, this alone might have made it a calculated, but seemingly necessary risk.  Especially, the whole celibacy part, no heir's for the illegitimate heir. The idea that Eamon might have been paying the Grand Cleric under the table would give more reason then just "he knows our secrets!1!" behind her fighting so hard to keep Alistair when the Gray Wardens as a whole tend to be pretty secretive anyway. And if she knew about  his lineage it would only add to the distress of having him sent away to fight and possibly die.

I also agree whole heartedly that Eamon was keeping Alistair around as a spare. I mean seriously, he's awake for like five minutes and already he's barking about making Alistair, King.

Bah! But w/e. I don't feel to strongly on these points, but I do believe that Alistair and Maric would have been able to make a recovery, at least a little, in their father-son relationship, if only they got the chance to talk to each other. 

I imagine their meeting being Alistair, all bitter and cutting sarcasm, with Maric admitting he was wrong and shuffling his feet a bit. It might end with Alistair getting upset because being mad at Maric is hard to do.<3

Modifié par Lady Dino, 27 juillet 2010 - 09:12 .

[Lady Dino]

Avilia wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

BramAlam12345 wrote...

Is becoming a Templar so bad considering the other options? Eamon's new wife really didn't like Alistair. Eamon couldn't let him continue living at court.

Alistair could have been squired out to any noble household in the land if Eamon had really wanted it.  Or even abroad, as Nathaniel Howe was.  The templars meant he was under a heavy thumb, however, unable to upset the royal applecart.  Eventually he would be under vows and addicted to lyrium, unable to raise rebellions but around in case they needed a spare.

Except he was conscripted by Duncan.  Do we know if Duncan knew before or after the fact that Alistair was Maric's son?

I don't know enough about the lore and books to posit a theory myself but it almost seems as if Duncan had ulterior motives for rescuing Alistair.  Or am I reading too much into it?

Oh yes Duncan knew.... or at least he better have. It's not exactly canon but all logic points to yes.

[SurelyForth]

Avilia wrote...

Except he was conscripted by Duncan.  Do we know if Duncan knew before or after the fact that Alistair was Maric's son?

I don't know enough about the lore and books to posit a theory myself but it almost seems as if Duncan had ulterior motives for rescuing Alistair.  Or am I reading too much into it?

If Alistair is Fiona's son, Duncan definitely knew and I imagine the conscription was either him saving Alistair or something he agreed to do for Fiona so her son wouldn't have to become a full-fledged templar.

[Sarah1281]

Avilia wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

BramAlam12345 wrote...

Is becoming a Templar so bad considering the other options? Eamon's new wife really didn't like Alistair. Eamon couldn't let him continue living at court.

Alistair could have been squired out to any noble household in the land if Eamon had really wanted it.  Or even abroad, as Nathaniel Howe was.  The templars meant he was under a heavy thumb, however, unable to upset the royal applecart.  Eventually he would be under vows and addicted to lyrium, unable to raise rebellions but around in case they needed a spare.

Except he was conscripted by Duncan.  Do we know if Duncan knew before or after the fact that Alistair was Maric's son?

I don't know enough about the lore and books to posit a theory myself but it almost seems as if Duncan had ulterior motives for rescuing Alistair.  Or am I reading too much into it?

Well, he promises to keep an eye on Fiona's son and Alistair looks just like Maric who Duncan has spent time with  so it would be hard not to know.

I'm also not sure why Duncan recruiting Alistair is an 'except' as that was obviously not in the plan and one of those contingencies that was so unlikely that they didn't even bother considering it.

[Avilia]

Except - bad sentence start. I meant he didn't become addicted to lyrium and take his vows as a Templar.

Modifié par Avilia, 27 juillet 2010 - 09:22 .

[Sarah1281]

Avilia wrote...

Except - bad sentence start. I meant he didn't become addicted to lyrium and take his vows as a Templar.

Ah, okay.

[errant_knight]

Addai67 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
 I have trouble giving him any kind of credit for that, given that being the bastard son of a maid is hardly likely to result in a fulfilling life. I'd think better of him if Alistair is exactly who he thinks he is, and even then, not by much. If he is the son of Maric and Fiona, his parents pretty much left him to twist in the wind.

Why would you think better of Maric if Alistair's mother is Random Servant Girl?

 Because then Maric wouldn't have put him into that situation, it would be the situation he was born to. If it was one he was placed in, then it wasn't to Alistair's benefit at all. More like a convenient cover story without any serious attempt to give him a good life.

Modifié par errant_knight, 27 juillet 2010 - 09:33 .

[Addai]

Avilia wrote...

Except - bad sentence start. I meant he didn't become addicted to lyrium and take his vows as a Templar.

Right, Duncan got him out just in time.  So either the Maker was looking down on Alistair or Duncan knew exactly who he was (which he would if Alistair is the baby from The Calling) and changed the game on Eamon.

This is sad in light of the topic and what actually happened, but it represents a "what might have been."

[Miri1984]

I think the Templar thing was all a calculated way to make sure Alistair never challenged Cailan for the throne - it might well have come about after Cailan was of an age for Eamon (possibly in consultation with Loghain) to realise that he would always be a weak King and challenges would be likely. Locking Alistair up in the Tower where only mages who've never seen the king and never talk to anyone outside - but he'd know exactly where he was all the time sounds pretty good. Also, restrained from having his own bastards by the vow of chastity and easily controllable through lyrium? Sound political thinking.

Eamon's a bastard in my opinion.

Modifié par Miri1984, 27 juillet 2010 - 09:38 .

[Avilia]

Miri1984 wrote...

I think the Templar thing was all a calculated way to make sure Alistair never challenged Cailan for the throne - it might well have come about after Cailan was of an age for Eamon (possibly in consultation with Loghain) to realise that he would always be a weak King and challenges would be likely. Locking Alistair up in the Tower where only mages who've never seen the king and never talk to anyone outside - but he'd know exactly where he was all the time sounds pretty good. Also, restrained from having his own bastards by the vow of chastity and easily controllable through lyrium? Sound political thinking.

Eamon's a bastard in my opinion.

I knew I liked you - I so much want the option to stick a dagger in Eamon.  What self serving, conniving, two faced....(the bad language filter prohibits complete expression of my thoughts)!

Modifié par Avilia, 27 juillet 2010 - 09:41 .

[Sarah1281]

I normally like Eamon - though at the moment I'm having trouble remembering why - but it seems like all of this could have been avoided by NOT letting Alistair know he was Maric's son. If Eamon couldn't be bothered to publicly deny the allegations was it REALLY necessary to make sure Alistair knew?

[SurelyForth]

errant_knight wrote...


 Because then Maric wouldn't have put him into that situation, it would be the situation he was born to. If it was one he was placed in, then it wasn't to Alistair's benefit at all. More like a convenient cover story without any serious attempt to give him a good life.

The problem is that neither Fiona nor Maric thought him being the bastard son of the king and an elven mage was a particular good start to life. Maric didn't really love being king, and being an elf was a terrible burden on Fiona and being a mage meant that she couldn't even leave the Wardens to be with her son. So they wanted him to be divorced from their woes as much as he could.

In theory, Eamon raising him would be a good life. Eamon was a close friend to Maric and he didn't mistreat Alistair he just wasn't concerned with providing Alistair more than the basics (physically and emotionally, it seemed). 

If anything, I feel sympathy for Maric because he was in a horrible situation, tbh. There may have very well been major political fallout for him having a child with an Orlesian mage, but he still would have acknowledged Alistair if Fiona hadn't insisted he not.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 27 juillet 2010 - 09:49 .

[Xandurpein]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Didn't Maric rule properly until Rowan died then he lost all interest leaving Loghain to make all the decisions?

I'd call losing all interest in ruling and making other people make the decisions from the moment of your spouse's death onwards a bad King. It's understandable, I suppose, but it didn't make him any better at his job.

Maric was a very irresponsible leader, long before his spouse died. His actions at the crucial battle of River Dane was even worse than running off to the Deep Roads. He abandoned the army that he was supposed to lead into battle to fight his own little vendetta.

He was the rebel King and his value as an icon to his own army can't be underestimated. That he didn't show up on the battle must have seriously affected his army's morale. His actions were totally irresponsible in a way that is right up there with Cailan's worst moments. He was just lucky he didn't lose the whole war of liberation with that stunt.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I normally like Eamon - though at the moment I'm having trouble remembering why - but it seems like all of this could have been avoided by NOT letting Alistair know he was Maric's son. If Eamon couldn't be bothered to publicly deny the allegations was it REALLY necessary to make sure Alistair knew?

Ha, my sentiments exactly.  It is so complicated for my PCs who stay on with Alistair at court.  Eamon would make a good advisor and with both a young king and young queen or chancellor, that would be invaluable.  OTOH, part of me always wants Eamon to take a long walk off a short pier into Lake Calenhad.

Especially when I heard this dialogue, unhardened Alistair talking about how good Eamon was to him and that maybe Eamon had changed his mind about him now that Anora showed up... you know subconsciously he is replaying Isolde all over again.  Dah!  It's a wonder my mage didn't turn around and light the old man's beard afire.

As for how it came out that Alistair was Maric's... my theory is that Eamon let it out in order to placate Isolde.  Which worked brilliantly. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

SurelyForth wrote...
If anything, I feel sympathy for Maric because he was in a horrible situation, tbh. There may have very well been major political fallout for him having a child with an Orlesian mage, but he still would have acknowledged Alistair if Fiona hadn't insisted he not.

He was in a situation he engineered, because he wasn't thinking properly.
I understand the guy had emotional needs. But he also has responsabilities and the need to be farsighted, which unfortunately makes him lack the luxury of acting on his feelings all the time.  

[SurelyForth]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...
If anything, I feel sympathy for Maric because he was in a horrible situation, tbh. There may have very well been major political fallout for him having a child with an Orlesian mage, but he still would have acknowledged Alistair if Fiona hadn't insisted he not.

He was in a situation he engineered, because he wasn't thinking properly.
I understand the guy had emotional needs. But he also has responsabilities and the need to be farsighted, which unfortunately makes him lack the luxury of acting on his feelings all the time.  

Well, there is that. I'm much more forgiving of him sleeping with Fiona because he seemed so epically lost and lonely until it happened and he was in a much better place afterwards, which was probably good for the entire kingdom. Still, he was willing to take responsibility for his actions and was cut off by the mother of his child, whom he felt knew better in that situation, so he has that going for him (the wanting to do the right thing, even if it might cause serious backlash/headaches).