101 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

phaonica wrote...
Part of what I like about the story, is that when you consider these heroic titles--Hero of River Dane, Maric the Savior, Hero of Denerim-- it's not that these titles aren't deserved, but there is a darkness and a sadness to the titles that the people who bestow them don't really *get*. It's a pretty cool spin on a video game hero/protagonist.

I know, it's like real life.

I am instantly reminded of Abd Al Rahman al Dakhil, one of my people's greatest leaders and a legendary figure. His "title" was "Hawk of Quraish". Yet few people know what he went through, how he evolved and what he ended up losing. His story was epic, but tragic (I cried when I watched the tv series about his life lol). 

A descedant of his, Abd al Rahman III, also one of the greatest rulers, said:
"I have now reigned above fifty years in victory or peace; beloved by my subjects, dreaded by my enemies, and respected by my allies. Riches and honours, power and pleasure, have waited on my call, nor does any earthly blessing appear to have been wanting to my felicity. In this situation, I have diligently numbered the days of pure and genuine happiness which have fallen to my lot: they amount to Fourteen: - O man! place not thy confidence in this present world!" 

Might be a generalisation, but I am convinced that the great leaders were seldom happy. 

/ end of history geekness.  

[errant_knight]

Nothing wrong with a little history geekiness. History is pretty darn interesting.

[Giggles_Manically]

Power seems to wear people down, and crush that spark of life in them.



Look at Loghain he pretty much fell apart and became something he thought he wouldnt ever be, because of power and the stress it caused.

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

phaonica wrote...
Part of what I like about the story, is that when you consider these heroic titles--Hero of River Dane, Maric the Savior, Hero of Denerim-- it's not that these titles aren't deserved, but there is a darkness and a sadness to the titles that the people who bestow them don't really *get*. It's a pretty cool spin on a video game hero/protagonist.

I know, it's like real life.

I am instantly reminded of Abd Al Rahman al Dakhil, one of my people's greatest leaders and a legendary figure. His "title" was "Hawk of Quraish". Yet few people know what he went through, how he evolved and what he ended up losing. His story was epic, but tragic (I cried when I watched the tv series about his life lol). 

A descedant of his, Abd al Rahman III, also one of the greatest rulers, said:
"I have now reigned above fifty years in victory or peace; beloved by my subjects, dreaded by my enemies, and respected by my allies. Riches and honours, power and pleasure, have waited on my call, nor does any earthly blessing appear to have been wanting to my felicity. In this situation, I have diligently numbered the days of pure and genuine happiness which have fallen to my lot: they amount to Fourteen: - O man! place not thy confidence in this present world!" 

Might be a generalisation, but I am convinced that the great leaders were seldom happy. 

/ end of history geekness.  

They must find some kind of reward in it, or they couldn't keep doing it. If happiness and prosperity, safety and respect, for themselves, their people, and their lands aren't enough to make these great leaders happy, how do they keep going? How do they continue to care?

[Sabariel]

I was surprised at how much I ended up disliking Maric. I don't blame Alistair at all for being a little bitter.

[KnightofPhoenix]

phaonica wrote...
They must find some kind of reward in it, or they couldn't keep doing it. If happiness and prosperity, safety and respect, for themselves, their people, and their lands aren't enough to make these great leaders happy, how do they keep going? How do they continue to care?

The tv series I just mentioned had Abd Al Rahman tell his wife that he couldn't stop being Emir even if he wanted to, because if he did, his enemies would kill him. When you reach the top, you either stay there or fall down to your demise. Could be a reason. 

I have always believed that leadership is for the rare few. How do they continue to care? Because imo, the great leaders were highly ambitious and didn't want to settle with an ordinary life or be like everyone else and that's what kept them going. That's why I don't seriously consider those who hate the idea of ruling / leading as good canditates.  
 

[Addai]

phaonica wrote...

I felt like he was using the potential blight situation as more of an excuse to get away from Ferelden than anything. He wanted to run away and a situation presented itself. He didn't have to go himself. He shouldn't have gone himself. And the fact that if Maric had not been there everyone would have been doomed was more about luck than about Maric's skill or character.

He and Loghain were familiar with that part of the Deep Roads, so it had to be him or Loghain.  I do think his personal crisis led him to choose to be the one rather than let Loghain go, though as with Severan he was the type of ruler who would rather lead the battle from the front lines than the back.  You can call a leader like that foolhardy or call him brave and inspiring.  Most of his people called him the latter and that's the most important, isn't it?

Severan was the power behind the Usurper's throne.  Someone had to take him out.  You're right it didn't have to be Maric, but there again, there is something to be said for the leader who does not sit back and send in his special forces when he could do it himself.  That kind of leadership inspires people.

And then there is the whole situation with Alistair. If Fiona didn't want Alistair's life complicated with the crown, Maric should have let her take the baby far away from Ferelden,

She would have had to leave the Wardens and thus become an apostate.  Not exactly a good life for a child.  It was Fiona's choice, not Maric's.  He let her choose, and saw himself as doing a good thing.

or Fiona should have *not slept with the king in the first place*. If it comes to light that Fiona is not Alistair's mother, and that there is yet another bastard child out there somewhere, that just makes Maric look even worse. 

It sounds like you're saying that to be human is to be a bad ruler.  If that's the case, there are no good rulers.  Nor was bastardy that big a deal among the nobility.  Eamon's fears about the succession were as overblown as Loghain's about Orlais.

Modifié par Addai67, 28 juillet 2010 - 02:14 .

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

phaonica wrote...
They must find some kind of reward in it, or they couldn't keep doing it. If happiness and prosperity, safety and respect, for themselves, their people, and their lands aren't enough to make these great leaders happy, how do they keep going? How do they continue to care?

The tv series I just mentioned had Abd Al Rahman tell his wife that he couldn't stop being Emir even if he wanted to, because if he did, his enemies would kill him. When you reach the top, you either stay there or fall down to your demise. Could be a reason. 

I have always believed that leadership is for the rare few. How do they continue to care? Because imo, the great leaders were highly ambitious and didn't want to settle with an ordinary life or be like everyone else and that's what kept them going. That's why I don't seriously consider those who hate the idea of ruling / leading as good canditates.  
 

It depends. Is a leader only great if they seek to progress their civilization? Or can they still be a great leader even if all they really want is to keep their people safe and happy? 

[Elessara]

Although I'm pretty sure Cailan didn't mind being king. He left most of the decisions up to Anora sure but it's not like he was against being king. He just wanted to be a hero and save his people like his father did.

[tallon1982]

I believe Fiona tells Maric that she didn't want their son having a life like theirs. She didn't want him to have that burden. So if Maric intervened in sending Alistair to the Chantry that would be going against Fiona's wishes which he promised her he would never expose him to a hard life. Duncan also vowed to watch over Alistair and when he got the chance he took Alistair away from the Chantry. This is assuming that Alistair is Fiona's son.



At anyrate if you go with the fact that Alistair's mother was just some servant girl it could be possible that Maric never knew of Alistair to begin with. Afterall Goldanna said she was given a few coins for her silence but she never says it's from the King. I'm betting it was most likely from an adviser or even Loghain to keep things quiet for Maric and Calian's sake, though probably more for Calian since he was Rowan's son.

[Elessara]

Though from what I've read of Maric he doesn't really seem the type to fool around with Random_Serving_Girl_01. But that's just the impression I got.

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...
He and Loghain were familiar with that part of the Deep Roads, so it had to be him or Loghain.  I do think his personal crisis led him to choose to be the one rather than let Loghain go, though as with Severan he was the type of ruler who would rather lead the battle from the front lines than the back.  You can call a leader like that foolhardy or call him brave and inspiring.  Most of his people called him the latter and that's the most important, isn't it?

That didn't work for Cailan. People were calling him foolhardy well before Loghain's retreat. I would even venture to say that Cailan's recklessness was directly inspired by Maric's.

Maybe some people would say that leaving behind your family for the greater good is inspiring, and under certain circumstances I would certainly agree. It might have been more inspiring for Maric to go on this Deeproads quest alone, but Ferelden was no longer in a state that it required Maric to be more brave or more inspiring. Would anyone have questioned Maric's courage if they had discovered that he sent Loghain as an escort instead of going himself? 

Severan was the power behind the Usurper's throne.  Someone had to take him out.  You're right it didn't have to be Maric, but there again, there is something to be said for the leader who does not sit back and send in his special forces when he could do it himself.  That kind of leadership inspires people.

I agree with you to an extent. That kind of story does inspire people. It's mostly an illusion, though, because I think he chose to go after Serveran himself more out of revenge then out of strategy.

And then there is the whole situation with Alistair. If Fiona didn't want Alistair's life complicated with the crown, Maric should have let her take the baby far away from Ferelden,

She would have had to leave the Wardens and thus become an apostate.  Not exactly a good life for a child.  It was Fiona's choice, not Maric's.  He let her choose, and saw himself as doing a good thing.

In all fairness, because of the inconsistant transition from the book to the game, it's hard to make a judgment on this. In the book, we are lead to believe that they are trying to do what is best for Alistair, despite the politics, and yet in the game Alistair has grown up completely shaped by the fact that Maric cared more about Ferelden/politics than Alistair.

If the Maric from the book is true, and the politics wouldn't have been hurt by Alistair so much as Alistair would have been hurt by the politics, why did he allow Alistair to be raised as he was? If the Maric from the game is true and the politics would have been hurt by Alistair's existance, he should not have compromised those politics in the first place by cheating on Rowan.

I got the impression from Maric that he often let his passions interfere with his ability to make responsible decisions, and while that might be okay for most people, it is not okay for the king.

or Fiona should have *not slept with the king in the first place*. If it comes to light that Fiona is not Alistair's mother, and that there is yet another bastard child out there somewhere, that just makes Maric look even worse. 

It sounds like you're saying that to be human is to be a bad ruler.  If that's the case, there are no good rulers.  Nor was bastardy that big a deal among the nobility.  Eamon's fears about the succession were as overblown as Loghain's about Orlais.

I do hold the king do a higher standard, yes. I expect a parent to be responsible for their own child more than I expect others to be responsible for it, and I expect a king to be more responsible to their subjects than those subjects are to each other. I'm not saying he's not allowed to feel, or to love, or to make mistakes, but with that much power and that much influence, he has to be emotionally stronger than most because his actions and passions affect so many people.

Modifié par phaonica, 28 juillet 2010 - 04:10 .

[Sarah1281]

I believe Fiona tells Maric that she didn't want their son having a life like theirs. She didn't want him to have that burden. So if Maric intervened in sending Alistair to the Chantry that would be going against Fiona's wishes which he promised her he would never expose him to a hard life. Duncan also vowed to watch over Alistair and when he got the chance he took Alistair away from the Chantry. This is assuming that Alistair is Fiona's son.

See, that's what I have a problem with. It's all well and good to promise Fiona something and to even mean it but her wishes from a decade before that he may very well not have seen her at all for should NOT supercede the wellbeing of their child.

Edit: And I agree that 'he's only human' is a pretty shoddy excuse for getting someone pregnant and then dropping the ball repeatedly as far as that child was concerned.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 28 juillet 2010 - 04:44 .

[Elessara]

@phaonica



You mentioned Maric cheating on Rowan. This is something the book and game seem to disagree on. If Fiona is Alistair's mother than Rowan was already dead. The game codex mentions that Eamon sheltered Alistair to hide his existence from Rowan which would seem to indicate that Alistair is not Fiona's son. However Alistair could have been lied to about this as he could have been lied to about who his mother was. You also have to look at the ages of Cailan and Alistair - or the assumed ages I should say since there's no clear cut birthdates.

[Addai]

phaonica wrote...

That didn't work for Cailan. People were calling him foolhardy well before Loghain's retreat. I would even venture to say that Cailan's recklessness was directly inspired by Maric's.

You're probably right about that.  People would have said it was great if it had worked.  Of course, Maric could count on Loghain to back him up, too, so Maric was not the only one inspiring Cailan.

Maybe some people would say that leaving behind your family for the greater good is inspiring, and under certain circumstances I would certainly agree. It might have been more inspiring for Maric to go on this Deeproads quest alone, but Ferelden was no longer in a state that it required Maric to be more brave or more inspiring. Would anyone have questioned Maric's courage if they had discovered that he sent Loghain as an escort instead of going himself?

Again, there was an existential threat not only to Ferelden but to the world.  That's quite a greater good.  But I'm not sure why you think it would be preferable for Loghain to leave his family and go rather than Maric.  Maric was the king, but Loghain also an important figure in the government.

I agree with you to an extent. That kind of story does inspire people. It's mostly an illusion, though, because I think he chose to go after Serveran himself more out of revenge then out of strategy.

Possibly.  It still had to be done.  Severan sent an assassin after Maric personally, he took care of it himself, the same way he took care of his mother's murderers.  I get it that you think a king should be more prudent and cautious, but that's just one way of looking at leadership.  It took a lot of daring to do what Loghain, Maric and the Guerrins did.

In all fairness, because of the inconsistant transition from the book to the game, it's hard to make a judgment on this. In the book, we are lead to believe that they are trying to do what is best for Alistair, despite the politics, and yet in the game Alistair has grown up completely shaped by the fact that Maric cared more about Ferelden/politics than Alistair.

If the Maric from the book is true, and the politics wouldn't have been hurt by Alistair so much as Alistair would have been hurt by the politics, why did he allow Alistair to be raised as he was? If the Maric from the game is true and the politics would have been hurt by Alistair's existance, he should not have compromised those politics in the first place by cheating on Rowan.

Rowan was dead, assuming Fiona is Alistair's mother.

As for why Maric's good intentions went so horribly wrong, that's what good intentions sometimes do.  I agree that it's maddening why he allowed Alistair to be given to the Chantry rather than intervene.  I imagine he thought it was too late.

But the fact that Maric was a horrible father really doesn't say much about his kingship.  Fiona deems him a good man and Ferelden lucky to have a good man for king.  That's my general take on him, too, though like any good fictional character, he has tragic flaws or we wouldn't be talking about him.

I do hold the king do a higher standard, yes. I expect a parent to be responsible for their own child more than I expect others to be responsible for it, and I expect a king to be more responsible to their subjects than those subjects are to each other. I'm not saying he's not allowed to feel, or to love, or to make mistakes, but with that much power and that much influence, he has to be emotionally stronger than most because his actions and passions affect so many people.

Agreed, though you can hardly fault Maric on this point.  He married his best friend's lover for the sake of the kingdom, for instance, and seems to have been devoted to her.  So much so that her loss made him falter.  It's the sort of fault that makes him terribly romantic, if nothing else, though I suspect you disagree. 

[Elessara]

Back on topic I'm not sure how Alistair and Maric would have gotten along.

How informed was Maric about Alistair's life? I can't imagine he would have let Eamon keep him in the stables/kennels. And if his heritage was such a big secret why was he even told who his father was to begin with? You'd think Maric could have just arranged to say, oh yeah this is X noble's bastard son and I want to do X noble a favor and find a decent place for him. And then just squired him out to some other minor noble. Do all of the minor nobles or banns or arls even know each other that well? How many banns are there? How many arls? Hell he could have sent him to the Free Marches like Howe did to Nathaniel - as someone else mentioned earlier.

At any rate, Maric really did drop the ball where Alistair was concerned. I think I could see Alistair forgiving that unless Maric knew he was sent to the Chantry and knew how unhappy Alistair was and did nothing about it. I don't know that Alistair would forgive that.

[phaonica]

Elessara wrote...

@phaonica

You mentioned Maric cheating on Rowan. This is something the book and game seem to disagree on. If Fiona is Alistair's mother than Rowan was already dead. The game codex mentions that Eamon sheltered Alistair to hide his existence from Rowan which would seem to indicate that Alistair is not Fiona's son. However Alistair could have been lied to about this as he could have been lied to about who his mother was. You also have to look at the ages of Cailan and Alistair - or the assumed ages I should say since there's no clear cut birthdates.

We have conflicting stories, and we don't know which facts to accept and which ones to dismiss. If Alistair was conceived when Rowan was alive, Alistair is either not Fiona's, or the book is based on a fallacy that Rowan was dead. If Alistair was conceived when Rowan was dead, Alistair might be Fiona's child, and the story about Alistair being raised by Eamon to protect Rowan and Ferelden politics is a fallacy.

If Alistair was raised by Eamon to protect Ferelden politics, that meant Rowan would have had to have been alive at the time, which either means Fiona is not Alistair's mother, or Maric cheated on Rowan.
If Alistair was raised by Eamon because Maric thought that was best for Alistair, did Maric not know that Alistair was sleeping in dog pens or whatever?

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

That didn't work for Cailan. People were calling him foolhardy well before Loghain's retreat. I would even venture to say that Cailan's recklessness was directly inspired by Maric's.

You're probably right about that.  People would have said it was great if it had worked.  Of course, Maric could count on Loghain to back him up, too, so Maric was not the only one inspiring Cailan.

I agree that Cailan had quite a lot of legends and heroic stories to hear growing up, and its a shame that they directly inspired him to go looking for battles.

Again, there was an existential threat not only to Ferelden but to the world.  That's quite a greater good. 

But he couldn't know that. He was going on two visions and a chance to escape. Even the other Wardens didn't believe in the threat, and they are supposed to be the experts.

But I'm not sure why you think it would be preferable for Loghain to leave his family and go rather than Maric.  Maric was the king, but Loghain also an important figure in the government.

Maric being king does make all the difference, to me. I would usually say that Loghain shouldn't go, either, but given the choice between the king, and the king's second, I think the second should go. Perhaps, technically, the loss of Loghain would have been more devastating to Ferelden than the loss of Maric, but that doesn't speak very highly of Maric, either. 

I get it that you think a king should be more prudent and cautious, but that's just one way of looking at leadership.  It took a lot of daring to do what Loghain, Maric and the Guerrins did.

That is true. They didn't achieve what they did without taking some risks. I don't mean to say that taking risks is always bad. I'm not saying a king shouldn't be willing to take risks for his people, just that it's usually not necessary for the king himself to do these things.

Rowan was dead, assuming Fiona is Alistair's mother.

And assuming that perhaps Fiona is not Alistair's mother, Rowan could have been alive when Alistair was conceived. We don't know for sure which is true. That's all I meant to say

As for why Maric's good intentions went so horribly wrong, that's what good intentions sometimes do.

Don't I know it. *Looks at Loghain*

  I agree that it's maddening why he allowed Alistair to be given to the Chantry rather than intervene.  I imagine he thought it was too late. But the fact that Maric was a horrible father really doesn't say much about his kingship.  Fiona deems him a good man and Ferelden lucky to have a good man for king.  That's my general take on him, too, though like any good fictional character, he has tragic flaws or we wouldn't be talking about him.

Agreed. As cliche as it sounds, Loghain and Maric are two sides of a coin. They both have their strengths and weaknesses, they both have their good sides and bad. If Maric had been around during the Blight without Loghain, it might have been just as bad of a disaster, just for different reasons. Yet, the two of them together, it might have been okay. Who knows.

Agreed, though you can hardly fault Maric on this point.  He married his best friend's lover for the sake of the kingdom, for instance, and seems to have been devoted to her.  So much so that her loss made him falter.  It's the sort of fault that makes him terribly romantic, if nothing else, though I suspect you disagree. 

No, I think it takes a super-rare person indeed to be able to pull off anything I may have mentioned. Loghain and Maric balanced each other out, for the most part, and they both did some really noble things and some really stupid things. It's not that I don't like Maric or Alistair, I just happen to like Loghain better.  that's a subject for a different thread, though.

Modifié par phaonica, 28 juillet 2010 - 06:34 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

phaonica wrote...
It depends. Is a leader only great if they seek to progress their civilization? Or can they still be a great leader even if all they really want is to keep their people safe and happy? 

Depends on each individual one, I guess, in addition to the time and place.
I don't have a universally applicable definition of what a great leader is.

Progress most of the time generates safety and happiness, even if the mostly sort sighted "people" fail to realise it.

[jpdipity]

Maric or Loghain had to go to the Deep Roads. Maric was told that the blight was coming by Flemeth. Assisting the Wardens had to be done.



If I was Maric, I would have never, ever, ever trusted Loghain with the Orlesian Wardens alone. It would be silly for both Maric and Loghain to go. So, Maric made the best decision by going himself. It was a necessary risk in my opinion.

[Addai]

phaonica wrote...

I agree that Cailan had quite a lot of legends and heroic stories to hear growing up, and its a shame that they directly inspired him to go looking for battles.

Looking for battles?!  There was a darkspawn horde in the south of his country- he had an obligation to defend the land.  In fact, we know he was trying to make overtures to the Orlesians- does that sound like a warmongerer?

Maric being king does make all the difference, to me. I would usually say that Loghain shouldn't go, either, but given the choice between the king, and the king's second, I think the second should go. Perhaps, technically, the loss of Loghain would have been more devastating to Ferelden than the loss of Maric, but that doesn't speak very highly of Maric, either. 

I think another poster has addressed already the wisdom of letting Loghain go with some Orlesians into the Deep Roads.  Loghain also didn't believe in the mission, because he wasn't taking the threat of Blight seriously nor was he willing to trust Grey Wardens.  (Gee, that sounds familiar.  )  It's a lot like the setup in Origins, really.  Maric trusted the Wardens too readily- he didn't know they were going solely on Genevieve's vision- and Loghain mistrusted them too much, since there was an actual threat.

[SirGladiator]

I think its pretty safe to say that all the evidence points to Allistair 'not' being Fiona's son. We know that Maric is all too willing to cheat on Rowan, he did it with Katriel when they were engaged, no reason to disbelieve the stated fact that he cheated on her again after they were married. Of course it would be nice if we could meet Fiona, say in DA2, and possibly find out who her son actually is (I thought it might be Jowan).

[Sarah1281]

Except Rowan was just a girl he had been promised to marry at some point in the future and that he didn't even have to go through with while the random serving girl would have been after he had made a commitment to her by marrying her.

[CalJones]

I agree with Phaonica that Maric and Loghain balance each other out. Loghain is the voice of reason, while Maric is the humanising influence. Maric seems to make decisions based on emotion (running off to kill Severan instead of fighting at River Dane...running off again to the Deep Roads) and only just gets away with it (in fact, Loghain has to save him in the latter instance). On his own, he'd not make a brilliant king.

Loghain, on the other hand, needs that humanising influence because he is a bit too cold and analytical. By the time we get to Origins, Maric, Rowan and Loghain's wife are all dead, so with the exception of Anora, who has her own agenda, he has absolutely no one to stop him going off the rails.

Had Maric been alive, I really don't think Fereldan would have got into the mess that it did.

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

I agree that Cailan had quite a lot of legends and heroic stories to hear growing up, and its a shame that they directly inspired him to go looking for battles.

Looking for battles?!  There was a darkspawn horde in the south of his country- he had an obligation to defend the land.  In fact, we know he was trying to make overtures to the Orlesians- does that sound like a warmongerer?

Sorry, I was referring to him insisting on being on the front line. I worded that badly.

Maric being king does make all the difference, to me. I would usually say that Loghain shouldn't go, either, but given the choice between the king, and the king's second, I think the second should go. Perhaps, technically, the loss of Loghain would have been more devastating to Ferelden than the loss of Maric, but that doesn't speak very highly of Maric, either. 

I think another poster has addressed already the wisdom of letting Loghain go with some Orlesians into the Deep Roads. 

 

I don't know what the problem with this would be. Loghain would have acted as an escort and needn't have gone any further with the Wardens than the Ortan thaig. Was Loghain not allowed to take an escort for himself so that he could get back to the surface?

 Loghain also didn't believe in the mission, because he wasn't taking the threat of Blight seriously nor was he willing to trust Grey Wardens.  (Gee, that sounds familiar.  )  It's a lot like the setup in Origins, really.  Maric trusted the Wardens too readily- he didn't know they were going solely on Genevieve's vision- and Loghain mistrusted them too much, since there was an actual threat.

I don't think he mistrusted them too much. He mistrusted the Wardens, but it wasn't as if his mistrust was completely unfounded. And IIRC it *did* turn out that an Orlesian was trying to use the situation to retake Ferelden, so that mistrust wasn't misplaced either.

Modifié par phaonica, 30 juillet 2010 - 07:17 .