87 réponses à ce sujet

[Lyna357]

Telum101 wrote...

Ok, I probably should have been more clear with the intent of my question.

I understand a need to evolve with sequels, but with the information we have of DA2, it seems less like evolving or expanding on the game, and more like going off on a tangent. I'd like to know why Bioware thought it was necessary to change, rather than improve. Why Bioware wanted DA2 to be a story told to us, rather than improving the simple RPG approach of DA:O. Why Bioware wanted to change the graphics and art style to appear more 'cartoon-ish'.

I'm not saying DA2 will be bad, or that the direction Bioware is heading is wrong but as I understand, DA:O was quite successful as it is, so I don't see much of a reason to change it so dramatically.

On a similar note, I would actually be happier if Bioware continued support for Origins. As I said before, my warden still has 20 or so years before they go out for their calling (or whatever it is they do), and I'd really like to see them do something with that time.

I agree with where you're coming from. I never have liked games with a voiced MC. This, and the art style are perhaps my biggest fears for the game. I agree 100% with what you said about DA:O being "quite successful as it is", and not seeing "much of a reason to change it so dramatically". I loved and supported Origins with my $. I loved the writing, the dialogue system, the voice acting, the combat (played on both pc & 360), and loved the graphics on the pc. I loved it so much I bought 2 more copies of the pc version as gifts.
I'm sorry, I just don't like having 'my' character talking for me. I didn't like it in ME1 and to this date haven't finished the game although BioWare has my money. I know that I am just one person and it doesn't really matter that much.
I guess I could try it in DA2 though if the game weren't just so ugly (my opinion so far as what screens I've seen). I want to escape to a beautiful world when I play fantasy games. I think that's why TES IV is one of my favorite games ... I spent a lot to get it to look great on my pc. I also played it on the console (360). Same goes for DA:O which I played on the 360 first and now have for the pc. It looks really so much better on the pc, I almost couldn't believe it was the same game!
As for combat, the BioWare reps have stated this will remain essentially the same on the pc. I don't know if I will like the console changes so that remains to be seen. 
I have heard snipets about them 'stream-lining' the inventory. I hope not because I likes me stuff. I love collecting all sorts of different armor and weapons, as is the standard rpg norm. So far I have supported all of the dlc for Origins, except for Darkspawn Chronicles (slash fest) and Leliana's Song because I heard that is voiced MC. I might try it eventually though since I am playing as her and not 'me'.
What is wrong with some things remaining the same in our fantasy role playing worlds? There is so much changing in the real world, it is comforting to come home and know that somethings are going to be the same when we play a game. But no, the trend seems to be that rpgs must change with the times. So be it.

About your last statement, I read elsewhere that BioWare has other dlc coming. Whether or not we can play as our Warden, Idk. I would love to be able to continue my adventures with my Warden sooner rather than later.  I hope BioWare is listening.

[Sirsmirkalot]

I haven't personally seen DA2 at work yet, so I'm not putting anything in stone. Yes, I absolutely hate the dialogue wheel, but from what I've heared so far, I do believe that this game will overall feel like a successor to Dragon Age.

Evolution should always happen in a sequel, but it should be done carefully. A good example of positive evolution is going from Baldur's Gate 1 to Baldur's Gate 2. More classes, better interface, spells that work different or better, ect... . You kept the vibe of the first game alive in the second game. A bad example of this, is Mass Effect 2. It's a good game on itself, but you can't speak of evolution any more. It went down another path entirely and to me and many others, the game felt like a spin-off.

Now like I said before, I hate the dialogue wheel and I wouldn't see it as evolution at all. But I think that overall the same vibe will be present. Time will tell ofcourse.

Modifié par Sirsmirkalot, 26 juillet 2010 - 01:40 .

[Bratt1204]

Telum101 wrote...

So as the title says, It would be nice if we could get an official response for why there have been so many changes. If there's another thread like this, forgive me, but I Haven't seen it.

Firstly, this isn't really a QQ thread (though I'm mostly against all the information we've heard so far), so I'd prefer if the trolls to go elsewhere, and before anyone goes ahead and says "We don't have enough information yet", I'm going to list the changes that I would like an answer for. Feel free to argue with anything I say (constructively of course), or add to my points.

1. Silent protaganist swapped out for voiced, 'pre-set' character: I understand that you (Bioware) probably wanted to show us the dragon age from a different perspective, but I don't see why he/she has to be so 'predefined' in comparison to our wardens. Going from a silent and diverse character who actuall, and then to Hawke, a character from a story that will be told to us doesn't exactly scream 'sequel' to me, and on that note...

2. Entirely different story: A lot of people have said that the wardens' story is finished, but the fact is, with Hawke, you're writing a new story from scratch (I'd hope so). Why not do the same with the characters we are attached to? Warden did the ultimate sacrifice? Use magic! You did it with Shepard. The point is, our wardens still have another 20 or so years(?) to do something interesting, and it would surely feel much more like a sequel if we were able to expand on the dragon age as it is, rather than rewriting it.

3. New art style: Again, going from a dark fantasy style to having Hawke doing flips around sad humans with skin diseases on the surface of the sun (ok maybe that's a tiny bit exaggerated) isn't what I'd expect in a sequel. Forgive me for being a bit offensive here, but please get rid of the person who thought spikes coming out of everyones' chests would be a good idea. It looks absolutely terrible and impractical.


That's actually all I have right now. Other features like the dialogue wheel and alleged simplified combat don't really appeal to me either, but I think those fit in with point 1.

Are all these changes a decision to market to a different audience? experimenting with something new? is the game being rushed out? was DA:O not successful enough? Some official response would be much appreciated.

I could not agree with you more. This DA:2 will not be a sequel to DA:O  but an entirely new game.  It's a real shame that this is the direction Bioware is going, although I am not surprised. It always seem that whenever a really fantastic, epic game is released all of the expansion and follow up material is just not worthwhile. Although DA:2 may be an entertaining game on its own, I doubt it will have any true continuity with DA:O and will tremendously disappoint those who were hoping to have some continuation and closure to their Warden's storyline. There seemed to have been so much storyline to expand upon (with our Warden who did not do the US) that I just cannot believe creating an entirely new character and storyline would be the best choice for a sequel 

[AllThatJazz]

Telum101 wrote...

So as the title says, It would be nice if we could get an official response for why there have been so many changes. If there's another thread like this, forgive me, but I Haven't seen it.

Firstly, this isn't really a QQ thread (though I'm mostly against all the information we've heard so far), so I'd prefer if the trolls to go elsewhere, and before anyone goes ahead and says "We don't have enough information yet", I'm going to list the changes that I would like an answer for. Feel free to argue with anything I say (constructively of course), or add to my points.

1. Silent protaganist swapped out for voiced, 'pre-set' character: I understand that you (Bioware) probably wanted to show us the dragon age from a different perspective, but I don't see why he/she has to be so 'predefined' in comparison to our wardens. Going from a silent and diverse character who actuall, and then to Hawke, a character from a story that will be told to us doesn't exactly scream 'sequel' to me, and on that note...


To be honest, I felt very connected to my voiced Shepard/Geralt/Michael Thorton. Playing Origins after ME1 felt strange, as though my character was a bit passive, mute in this story she was supposedly the heroine of. As long as there isn't too much of a trade-off between voice acting and game content (and we don't know enough yet to make a supposition), I'm okay with it. And as far as the preset thing goes, I can still choose gender, appearance, class, presumably sexual preference and most importantly, my Hawke's morality. I don't see how having a narrator interjecting every so often changes this 

2. Entirely different story: A lot of people have said that the wardens' story is finished, but the fact is, with Hawke, you're writing a new story from scratch (I'd hope so). Why not do the same with the characters we are attached to? Warden did the ultimate sacrifice? Use magic! You did it with Shepard. The point is, our wardens still have another 20 or so years(?) to do something interesting, and it would surely feel much more like a sequel if we were able to expand on the dragon age as it is, rather than rewriting it.

Perhaps for some who did the US, doing a Shepard on the Warden would cheapen the sacrifice that they had their character make, rendering it completely meaningless in fact. There's also the fact that, while yes, there are more stories that could be told about the Warden, and he/she is by no means irrelevant, the main point of a Grey Warden is to defeat Archdemons. Which means that DA2 would kind of have to mainly be about Blights/Archdemons/Darkspawn, in order to give the Warden real purpose. I already have that game. And I don't believe anyone is rewriting the Dragon Age. No-one (ie the Devs) ever said that the whole DA universe revolves around Wardens. They're just part of it - an important, fascinating and fabulous part, to be sure, but there are other stories to be told, and I want those too, rather than lots of stories about the same character/organisation. Thedas is an interesting place, I'd like to explore it through different eyes.

3. New art style: Again, going from a dark fantasy style to having Hawke doing flips around sad humans with skin diseases on the surface of the sun (ok maybe that's a tiny bit exaggerated) isn't what I'd expect in a sequel. Forgive me for being a bit offensive here, but please get rid of the person who thought spikes coming out of everyones' chests would be a good idea. It looks absolutely terrible and impractical.

On this, I don't have much of an opinion. Origins looked okay. DA2 so far looks ... okay. Though Bethany's cute, fire is pretty and the ManBeard is Awesome.

That's actually all I have right now. Other features like the dialogue wheel and alleged simplified combat don't really appeal to me either, but I think those fit in with point 1.

Are all these changes a decision to market to a different audience? experimenting with something new? is the game being rushed out? was DA:O not successful enough? Some official response would be much appreciated.

Obviously I'm not an official person. I'd guess, though, that because they're telling a different story with a different kind of focus, they've decided to tell it in a different way is all. And since ME is so darned popular, they're using some of the bits they like best from those games and seeing how they work in DA. I'm all for experimentation - and if it doesn't work as well as Bio hoped, they can always return to their .. er .. Origins (see whut I done thar?) for DA3. No harm, no foul.

Just my opinions, obviously, and not disrespecting yours or anyone else's 

[DewTheNinjew]

17thknight wrote...

I agree with the dumbing down. They're trying to get more mass appeal but they're alienating the fans of the original. and making a franchise more "dark" and changing the mechanics and art style mid-franchise is a bad decision IMO.

But its definately not console gamers fault its getting dumbed down, they're trying to get non-tactical RPGers on both sides of that rift.

[Sidney]

DewTheNinjew wrote...

I agree with the dumbing down. They're trying to get more mass appeal but they're alienating the fans of the original. and making a franchise more "dark" and changing the mechanics and art style mid-franchise is a bad decision IMO.

They've made design changed but there's nothing "dumbed down". Really, I mean let's roll the things that seem to frost so many cupcakes and see how "dumb" things are other than the luddites who make the dumb argument.

1. Dialog wheel. We've been through this plenty of times. There are 6 options, there are precious few if any DAO dialogs with more than 6 options. You get the same number of choices and since there is a "More" option that can open more dialog options 6 can functionally become X. Anyone who has played ME2 has encountered just this mechanism.

2. Voice Actor. I guess some folks will say "it works my imagination to hear a voice" so maybe your creativity gets taxed more but really, other than basic literacy the unvoiced options aren't really for intellectual titans.

3. Only human. Not sure picking "elf" from a menu marks you as an intellectual titan on the character creation screen. While the elf in DAO does get you some "Wait, do you hate elves" dialog options it doesn't really change much in the game beyond that. It is nice but not incredibly deep. The deth of the elves isn't built into your character but the backstory to all elves.

4. Inventory/Loot. Again, I'm not sure that clicking on dead bodies with sparkles is an intellectual pursuit. Unless you are gonna also enjoy  Homless Age: Origins where you get to pick up trash and recyclables from the side of the road I'm not even sure it should be seen as fun. People try to amp dealing with merchants up to some fine art but selling vendor trash isn't hard and I'd bet that 95% of all players ended up with their warriors in: Juggernaut, Legion of the Dead and Blood Dragon armor by the end of the game so it isn't even all that challenging a mix n' match. Tied in with this are concerns about not being able to play dress up with your character - the choose my armor arguments. This is the same game mechanism as Barbie: Super Dress Up Adventures which is for 5-10 year olds so that's also not a major intellectual barrier.

In the end there are design decisions you might not like but there's nothing here that makes a game less "intellectual" or "dumbed down".

[Jimeee]

Money. The console market has much more money than PC.

Origins was geared towards PC whereas DA2 (like ME2) seems to be geared towards the console.

[Vandrayke]

Sidney wrote...

DewTheNinjew wrote...

I agree with the dumbing down. They're trying to get more mass appeal but they're alienating the fans of the original. and making a franchise more "dark" and changing the mechanics and art style mid-franchise is a bad decision IMO.

They've made design changed but there's nothing "dumbed down". Really, I mean let's roll the things that seem to frost so many cupcakes and see how "dumb" things are other than the luddites who make the dumb argument.

1. Dialog wheel. We've been through this plenty of times. There are 6 options, there are precious few if any DAO dialogs with more than 6 options. You get the same number of choices and since there is a "More" option that can open more dialog options 6 can functionally become X. Anyone who has played ME2 has encountered just this mechanism.

2. Voice Actor. I guess some folks will say "it works my imagination to hear a voice" so maybe your creativity gets taxed more but really, other than basic literacy the unvoiced options aren't really for intellectual titans.

3. Only human. Not sure picking "elf" from a menu marks you as an intellectual titan on the character creation screen. While the elf in DAO does get you some "Wait, do you hate elves" dialog options it doesn't really change much in the game beyond that. It is nice but not incredibly deep. The deth of the elves isn't built into your character but the backstory to all elves.

4. Inventory/Loot. Again, I'm not sure that clicking on dead bodies with sparkles is an intellectual pursuit. Unless you are gonna also enjoy  Homless Age: Origins where you get to pick up trash and recyclables from the side of the road I'm not even sure it should be seen as fun. People try to amp dealing with merchants up to some fine art but selling vendor trash isn't hard and I'd bet that 95% of all players ended up with their warriors in: Juggernaut, Legion of the Dead and Blood Dragon armor by the end of the game so it isn't even all that challenging a mix n' match. Tied in with this are concerns about not being able to play dress up with your character - the choose my armor arguments. This is the same game mechanism as Barbie: Super Dress Up Adventures which is for 5-10 year olds so that's also not a major intellectual barrier.

In the end there are design decisions you might not like but there's nothing here that makes a game less "intellectual" or "dumbed down".

lol... I agree completely.  I mean, I don't get how it is somehow "complicated" or "smart" to get to pick between elves that live in the woods and shoot bows or dwarves that live underground and swing axes and drink beer.  People should call their preferences for what they are, preferences, and not bring the whole intelligence thing into it.  It looks really funny when they do.  

[Addai]

Lyna357 wrote...
I'm sorry, I just don't like having 'my' character talking for me. I didn't like it in ME1 and to this date haven't finished the game although BioWare has my money. I know that I am just one person and it doesn't really matter that much.

Same here.

I guess I could try it in DA2 though if the game weren't just so ugly (my opinion so far as what screens I've seen). I want to escape to a beautiful world when I play fantasy games. I think that's why TES IV is one of my favorite games ...

Once again, same.  I can handle chunks of bleak and austere, but prefer lush and richly detailed, even if that detail is macabre.  Overall, though, if there are not beautiful things to look at, I find a game depressing and that rather defeats the purpose of playing.  I think it's why I loved Operation:Anchorage DLC so much as a break from Fallout 3's constant, though in its own way beautiful, wasteland.

So far I have supported all of the dlc for Origins, except for Darkspawn Chronicles (slash fest) and Leliana's Song because I heard that is voiced MC. I might try it eventually though since I am playing as her and not 'me'.

I think the DLC have been disappointing enough that it underlines my negativity about the changes I hear announced for DA2.  I played a bit of Leliana's Song this weekend, and while it was mildly entertaining, it did not feel like Origins, perhaps because it really had no connection to and no impact on the Origins world.  DSC was just a farce, and now the new DLC seems only oriented to ramp up combat.  And the biggest disappointment of all, because it had the highest expectations, was Awakening.  The story was so truncated and rushed, and there were these great characters but very little way to connect to them.  If that is what "streamlining" and "cinematic" means, then, no thank you.

All in all, it feels like DA devs are trying to wean off old-style RPG fans from the things we love in the interest of producing cheap, flashy cash cows.  And the DA2 promotion has taken that weaning and turned it into a big middle finger.

About your last statement, I read elsewhere that BioWare has other dlc coming. Whether or not we can play as our Warden, Idk. I would love to be able to continue my adventures with my Warden sooner rather than later.  I hope BioWare is listening.

You'll be able to play as your Warden, but it seems to be a dungeon crawl with no other selling point than to put to test the combat abilities that were overpowered in Awakening.  Whoever the people are in the focus groups that are asking for these things, I doubt they share our gaming preferences.

[Vandrayke]

I mean really a lot of old-school RPG staples just feel archaic and tired at this point. Mass looting and the way character classes and leveling and all that usually develop, specifically.

[Gatt9]

Sidney wrote...

1. Dialog wheel. We've been through this plenty of times. There are 6 options, there are precious few if any DAO dialogs with more than 6 options. You get the same number of choices and since there is a "More" option that can open more dialog options 6 can functionally become X. Anyone who has played ME2 has encountered just this mechanism.

You're pretty far off on the other stuff too,  but this warrants special attention...

...You do realize that not only is the dialogue for the PC now inconsequential,  but it also includes helpfull symbols to tell you exactly which answers are nice and not so nice.

Seriously,  there's something horribly wrong when you've gotta label your dialogue to tell people if they saying nice or mean stuff.  That's pretty much the definition of "Dumbed down".  Don't even bother reading it,  just look for the little olive branch symbol and click it.

In fact,  I think if we analyze it,  we'll discover that the whole thing actually shifts this way out of RPG and dead center into Adventure Game.

I mean really a lot of old-school RPG staples just feel archaic and tired at this point. Mass looting and the way character classes and leveling and all that usually develop, specifically.

Sounds like you may want to reflect on whether or not you like RPGs,  or if what you actually prefer is an Adventure Game.  They're two distinct genres,  but one doesn't have the classes and levels you are disenfranchised with.

Modifié par Gatt9, 26 juillet 2010 - 03:31 .

[Beerfish]

I like having a voiced character just fine, I had no problem with that from mass effect.



I like the new story just fine. The Wardens put a real restriction on things story wise in my opinion. It was important for the 1st game but I have no problem with them branching out for DA2.



The art style is the only thing that looks dubious to me of what I've seen so far. I just don't like the ogres as much. The darkspawn is wait and see.

[Rubbish Hero]

Vandrayke wrote...I mean really a lot of old-school RPG staples just feel archaic and tired at this point:o

Mass Effect basically the same.... but dumb.
Dumb is the future, tally ho.

[Herr Uhl]

Addai67 wrote...

Lyna357 wrote...
I guess I could try it in DA2 though if the game weren't just so ugly (my opinion so far as what screens I've seen). I want to escape to a beautiful world when I play fantasy games. I think that's why TES IV is one of my favorite games ...

Once again, same.  I can handle chunks of bleak and austere, but prefer lush and richly detailed, even if that detail is macabre.  Overall, though, if there are not beautiful things to look at, I find a game depressing and that rather defeats the purpose of playing.  I think it's why I loved Operation:Anchorage DLC so much as a break from Fallout 3's constant, though in its own way beautiful, wasteland.

Well, all the screens shown thus far are from blighted Lothering. I'm sure there will be some other kinds of landscapes, some lush. At least I hope so.

Gatt9 wrote...

...You do realize that not only is the dialogue for the PC now inconsequential,  but it also includes helpfull symbols to tell you exactly which answers are nice and not so nice.

Seriously,  there's something horribly wrong when you've gotta label your dialogue to tell people if they saying nice or mean stuff.  That's pretty much the definition of "Dumbed down".  Don't even bother reading it,  just look for the little olive branch symbol and click it.

In fact,  I think if we analyze it,  we'll discover that the whole thing actually shifts this way out of RPG and dead center into Adventure Game.

It includes which tone your PC says it in. It would be far more jarring to not have any indication of general tone if it is voiced. And as far as aggressive, sarcastic or diplomatic, I'd like to know.

There is nothing inferred about morality in choosing them, it is personality.

[Vandrayke]

Rubbish Hero wrote...

Vandrayke wrote...I mean really a lot of old-school RPG staples just feel archaic and tired at this point:o

Mass Effect basically the same.... but dumb.
Dumb is the future, tally ho.

lol 

I also like how there will probably be fewer dwarves and elves in this one.  Dwarves and elves are dead in fantasy fiction and should be dead in fantasy games, too

[Ensgnblack]

By the end of Awakening, all characters were stupid powerful. The Warden had stopped the Blight and if you took a certain side, possibly ended the Blights all together. What else would he do?



I am glad we move on to another character, and I am glad we do not continue at level 30 or whatever. My biggest hope for DA2 is to make it more difficult, as Awakening was terribly easy compared to the orig game, and to balance the classes a bit more. I do not mean against each other, but against the enemies. DA:A had way too much aoe. The classes were simply too powerful against enemies.

[Ildaron]

AllThatJazz wrote...

Telum101 wrote...

So as the title says, It would be nice if we could get an official response for why there have been so many changes. If there's another thread like this, forgive me, but I Haven't seen it.

Firstly, this isn't really a QQ thread (though I'm mostly against all the information we've heard so far), so I'd prefer if the trolls to go elsewhere, and before anyone goes ahead and says "We don't have enough information yet", I'm going to list the changes that I would like an answer for. Feel free to argue with anything I say (constructively of course), or add to my points.

1. Silent protaganist swapped out for voiced, 'pre-set' character: I understand that you (Bioware) probably wanted to show us the dragon age from a different perspective, but I don't see why he/she has to be so 'predefined' in comparison to our wardens. Going from a silent and diverse character who actuall, and then to Hawke, a character from a story that will be told to us doesn't exactly scream 'sequel' to me, and on that note...


To be honest, I felt very connected to my voiced Shepard/Geralt/Michael Thorton. Playing Origins after ME1 felt strange, as though my character was a bit passive, mute in this story she was supposedly the heroine of. As long as there isn't too much of a trade-off between voice acting and game content (and we don't know enough yet to make a supposition), I'm okay with it. And as far as the preset thing goes, I can still choose gender, appearance, class, presumably sexual preference and most importantly, my Hawke's morality. I don't see how having a narrator interjecting every so often changes this 

2. Entirely different story: A lot of people have said that the wardens' story is finished, but the fact is, with Hawke, you're writing a new story from scratch (I'd hope so). Why not do the same with the characters we are attached to? Warden did the ultimate sacrifice? Use magic! You did it with Shepard. The point is, our wardens still have another 20 or so years(?) to do something interesting, and it would surely feel much more like a sequel if we were able to expand on the dragon age as it is, rather than rewriting it.

Perhaps for some who did the US, doing a Shepard on the Warden would cheapen the sacrifice that they had their character make, rendering it completely meaningless in fact. There's also the fact that, while yes, there are more stories that could be told about the Warden, and he/she is by no means irrelevant, the main point of a Grey Warden is to defeat Archdemons. Which means that DA2 would kind of have to mainly be about Blights/Archdemons/Darkspawn, in order to give the Warden real purpose. I already have that game. And I don't believe anyone is rewriting the Dragon Age. No-one (ie the Devs) ever said that the whole DA universe revolves around Wardens. They're just part of it - an important, fascinating and fabulous part, to be sure, but there are other stories to be told, and I want those too, rather than lots of stories about the same character/organisation. Thedas is an interesting place, I'd like to explore it through different eyes.

3. New art style: Again, going from a dark fantasy style to having Hawke doing flips around sad humans with skin diseases on the surface of the sun (ok maybe that's a tiny bit exaggerated) isn't what I'd expect in a sequel. Forgive me for being a bit offensive here, but please get rid of the person who thought spikes coming out of everyones' chests would be a good idea. It looks absolutely terrible and impractical.

On this, I don't have much of an opinion. Origins looked okay. DA2 so far looks ... okay. Though Bethany's cute, fire is pretty and the ManBeard is Awesome.

That's actually all I have right now. Other features like the dialogue wheel and alleged simplified combat don't really appeal to me either, but I think those fit in with point 1.

Are all these changes a decision to market to a different audience? experimenting with something new? is the game being rushed out? was DA:O not successful enough? Some official response would be much appreciated.

Obviously I'm not an official person. I'd guess, though, that because they're telling a different story with a different kind of focus, they've decided to tell it in a different way is all. And since ME is so darned popular, they're using some of the bits they like best from those games and seeing how they work in DA. I'm all for experimentation - and if it doesn't work as well as Bio hoped, they can always return to their .. er .. Origins (see whut I done thar?) for DA3. No harm, no foul.

Just my opinions, obviously, and not disrespecting yours or anyone else's 

However for me there is plenty harm and foul. If a gameline doesn't support the sort of game I want to play I play something else. I play other series. I move on and do other things. I do not have a money tree and I spend my money on things I consider to be valuable. At best DA2 will be a bargain bin game for me. It does not seem all that interesting, however by the time it drops down low enough in price, Fable II may be on the PC (or I might purchase an Xbox for it finally.)

That is the thing for me. I already have an action/RPG line I enjoy. I will not jump ship and switch because it has a DA or Bioware logo on it. If Bioware creates the sort of games I enjoy (RPG) I'll buy them. If not I'll search for and buy pure RPGs from other companies.

[Arttis]

Vandrayke wrote...

I mean really a lot of old-school RPG staples just feel archaic and tired at this point. Mass looting and the way character classes and leveling and all that usually develop, specifically.

You oldies need to look to the future with the new sleek designs the newer generations have.

[CiaoBella]

The dumbing down of conversation/character relationships is a concern.

ME2 did this really well (shallow conversation...), as long as Shepherd wasn't a complete dolt during conversation events the obligatory romance scene occurred. Just seemed disjointed/tacked on to me...

In DA:O, however the relationships/character interactions made sense and had more depth.

[Addai]

Sidney wrote...

DewTheNinjew wrote...

I agree with the dumbing down. They're trying to get more mass appeal but they're alienating the fans of the original. and making a franchise more "dark" and changing the mechanics and art style mid-franchise is a bad decision IMO.

They've made design changed but there's nothing "dumbed down". Really, I mean let's roll the things that seem to frost so many cupcakes and see how "dumb" things are other than the luddites who make the dumb argument.

1. Dialog wheel. We've been through this plenty of times. There are 6 options, there are precious few if any DAO dialogs with more than 6 options. You get the same number of choices and since there is a "More" option that can open more dialog options 6 can functionally become X. Anyone who has played ME2 has encountered just this mechanism.

The fact that you have X number of options isn't the point.  It is "dumbed down" that people don't want to have to think about the actual wording of their response, rather than pointing at a little picture.  "Hawke happy now!"  "Hawke fight!"  I wonder if they test the icons on monkeys using flash cards.  Heh.

Yes, I'm being facetious.  However, it seems to me you are deliberately obscuring the point being made.

2. Voice Actor. I guess some folks will say "it works my imagination to hear a voice" so maybe your creativity gets taxed more but really, other than basic literacy the unvoiced options aren't really for intellectual titans.

Once again, adventures in missing the point.  It is discouraging- incredible, even- to read Bioware devs talk about the DAO protagonist as having no more reaction to the Blight than a raised eyebrow.  As if they don't realize what roleplaying IS.  The options shown us in the game, whether text or video, are simply a spur to the creativity of the player, hinges to hang your creativity on, not the whole sum of the story.  I don't need to see it on the screen to know that my Warden cried, raged, loved, that her bowels turned to water facing a horde of enemies, or any number of other things that I never actually saw either in text or animation.

So babysitting the imagination by imposing a voice actor onto my character is an unnecessary and unwelcome intrusion in my book.  If I could customize the voice and intonation as easily as I can the appearance of my character, I could accept this as a good development.  Naturally, that's not going to happen.

3. Only human. Not sure picking "elf" from a menu marks you as an intellectual titan on the character creation screen. While the elf in DAO does get you some "Wait, do you hate elves" dialog options it doesn't really change much in the game beyond that. It is nice but not incredibly deep. The deth of the elves isn't built into your character but the backstory to all elves.

Goes to limiting RP choices.  Again, if you were actually trying to understand the critics' POV rather than trying to be cute... well, I guess you'd have nothing to post about.

Modifié par Addai67, 26 juillet 2010 - 03:51 .

[AlanC9]

Gatt9 wrote...

Sounds like you may want to reflect on whether or not you like RPGs,  or if what you actually prefer is an Adventure Game.  They're two distinct genres,  but one doesn't have the classes and levels you are disenfranchised with.

But Adventure Games have single correct paths and puzzle-based gameplay. Nothing Bio's making is going in anything like that direction.

[FieryDove]

Telum101 wrote...

So as the title says, It would be nice if we could get an official response for why there have been so many changes. If there's another thread like this, forgive me, but I Haven't seen it.

1. Many people demand/need VO at any cost.
2. I do hope they do another warden story...Most of my warden's died so...the few who had 29 years left, eh.
I wouldn't mind a new warden later down the road, an orlasin warden. I want to see orlais. I also want to see Sten's homeland and invade and cleanse the dark city, so many places so little time. sigh
3. The only thing that really made me take notice is some of the DS look like undead now rather than...DS. I don't care for it but it's not my call.

Combat I can't comment on, they haven't shown the pc gameplay yet, and the wheel...it's Ebil!

[Sidney]

Gatt9 wrote...

You're pretty far off on the other stuff too,  but this warrants special attention...

...You do realize that not only is the dialogue for the PC now inconsequential,  but it also includes helpfull symbols to tell you exactly which answers are nice and not so nice.

Seriously,  there's something horribly wrong when you've gotta label your dialogue to tell people if they saying nice or mean stuff.  That's pretty much the definition of "Dumbed down".  Don't even bother reading it,  just look for the little olive branch symbol and click it.

In fact,  I think if we analyze it,  we'll discover that the whole thing actually shifts this way out of RPG and dead center into Adventure Game.

So you fear the symbols because they what? Give you more information? Wait, I thought that more info was good. I don't like guessing what intent is. I've listed several times in another thread that dialog from DAO hit the wrong mark because I didn't know the intent and tone and it caused the wrong reaction.

As for the "just look for it" option then why don't you and the luddites have a cow about the [Persuade] [Intimidate] labels in DAO? I mean shouldn't you be able to read those options and just KNOW they are persuading or intimidating? You could just look for those labels and make a selection. *Gasp* Run for the hills Martha and be sure you save your copies of Planescape Tormet RPG'ing is dead!