245 réponses à ce sujet

[tmp7704]

aberdash wrote...

In a game you must assume a role. A poem is read to you and requires no involvement on your part. Now in DA2 you can either assume your role is Hawke and that damn dwarfs keeps interrupting your roleplaying. Or you assume you are playing a the dwarf telling the story. To me the latter makes more sense.

Or you can assume the dwarf is telling the story of your exploits and you create this exact story on the fly, by playing the role of Hawke in individual segments of the "story".

Monkey Island 2 i mentioned eaerlier is example of this -- you play the whole game as Guybrush Threepwood, Might Pirate™ but the whole thing is actually Guybrush telling his wife exactly how he ended up in situation she finds him in at the very beginning of the game.

[fchopin]

In the movie shane we have shane as the leading player in the film and the boy is telling the story from the boys perception, will we also hear the story from Varric,s perception while Hawke does his or her own thing?

[aberdash]

Framed narrative is not bad by itself. Games such as Alpha Protocol use it to great effect. However it is Thornton recalling his exploits and not some random guy of the street. Also if Thornton was lying the guy he was talking to would know it.

[tmp7704]

Addai67 wrote...

That would be a huge gotcha and there's no indication of such a thing (..)

Yup, but the thing is there's also nothing that can be really used to prove this isn't the case. The whole thing relies on player's willingness to suspend their disbelief and trust that the story is actually happening the way it's presented to them... and it's no different for DA2.

It's also pretty similar to how the narrative for Leliana's DLC work -- the frame is, she's telling a story of what has happened to her, but it's the player who takes her role and shape the events in one way or another. I wouldn't be surprised if that DLC was just a small test bed for DA2, to see how the players find this approach to gameplay.

[IoCaster]

David Gaider wrote...

Exactly. It will make more sense when you play the game, I suppose, but the narrative frames the story-- it doesn't determine how it plays. If someone's fear is that, at some point, we'll just hand-wave the entire thing and say "well it was just all in Varric's head" I would respond with: why would we do that? Playing around a little with the details might be okay, but at its heart the player needs to have agency. It's a story that the player is directing, like any other.

How linear is the game? I mean is it on rails and the player doesn't get any choice in what order they choose to complete the various chapters? Does it proceed along the ten year timeline on a straight path? Any information about this would be appreciated. TIA

Modifié par IoCaster, 27 juillet 2010 - 01:33 .

[BlackyBlack]

As I remember Duncan was the narrator in DAO. And he narrated stuff that happened AFTER he died! That must mean ORIGINS NEVER HAPPENED. Or maybe Duncan is still alive, but then again by your theory he's just making it all up.

See, I can make stupid theories too, not just you aberdash

Can you really prove to me that the story in Alpha Protocol or The Witcher or BioShock or Half Life or ANY video game really happened and wasn't just a dream by the protagonist (or that the protagonist isn't just crazy)?

Modifié par BlackyBlack, 26 juillet 2010 - 11:34 .

[tmp7704]

aberdash wrote...

Framed narrative is not bad by itself. Games such as Alpha Protocol use it to great effect. However it is Thornton recalling his exploits and not some random guy of the street. Also if Thornton was lying the guy he was talking to would know it.

You can actually bluff and/or lie a number of times in the narrative parts of Alpha Protocol and the guy you describe the events to never calls you out on it. Think there's even perk to get for doing that. So yeah, for all you know lot of that doesn't have to be true, either.

[FedericoV]

aberdash wrote...

In a game you must assume a role. A poem is read to you and requires no involvement on your part. Now in DA2 you can either assume your role is Hawke and that damn dwarf from the future keeps interrupting your roleplaying. Or you assume you are playing a the dwarf telling the story. To me the latter makes more sense.

In one of my pen and paper campaign of old, my master told the story of our group like it was a poem of a bard sang in a tavern. At the end of every major storyline, there would be a scene settled in the tavern, with the bard as protagonist. Those scenes served to draw some conclusions on the story we've played so far, to explain the aftermath of our last quests and to anticipate the future of our party.

So, we weren't roleplaying our characthers, according to your position. We were roleplaying the bard. Great to know. I never realized that.

Modifié par FedericoV, 26 juillet 2010 - 11:47 .

[aberdash]

tmp7704 wrote...

It's also pretty similar to how the
narrative for Leliana's DLC work -- the frame is, she's telling a story
of what has happened to her, but it's the player who takes her role and
shape the events in one way or another. I wouldn't be surprised if that
DLC was just a small test bed for DA2, to see how the players find this
approach to gameplay.

There is a difference. Its Leliana telling
the story not someone who clams to have met Leliana at some point in
their life. If it was Hawke narrating their story I would have no problem.

BlackyBlack wrote...

As I remember Duncan was the narrator in DAO. And he narrated stuff that happened AFTER he died! That must mean ORIGINS NEVER HAPPENED. Or maybe Duncan is still alive, but then again by your theory he's just making it all up.

See, I can make stupid theories too, not just you aberdash

Can you really prove to me that the story in Alpha Protocol or The Witcher or BioShock or Half Life or ANY video game really happened and wasn't just a dream?

HURR I TROOL U UR STOOPID 

[Grommash94]

aberdash wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

It's also pretty similar to how the
narrative for Leliana's DLC work -- the frame is, she's telling a story
of what has happened to her, but it's the player who takes her role and
shape the events in one way or another. I wouldn't be surprised if that
DLC was just a small test bed for DA2, to see how the players find this
approach to gameplay.

There is a difference. Its Leliana telling
the story not someone who clams to have met Leliana at some point in
their life. If it was Hawke narrating their story I would have no problem.

We don't know Leliana is telling the truth, however. 

[KethWolfheart]

I was a little nervous at first but it has a lot of interesting potential. I don't see why people would think they are role playing the Dwarf. The dwarf frames an event .. you then cut to Hawke who then makes the choices and decisions that are being told by the dwarf ... but it is still Hawke (you) creating the story. The fact that it is in the past is totally and utterly irrelevant.



Someone could talk about your Warden in DAO now. Perhaps Alistair, drunk at the Tavern, tells his tale of how YOU the GW did all these things - saved Redcliffe, but destroyed the Circle but saved the werewolves but destroyed the golem ... and then side with Loghain leaving Alistair in the Tavern.



YOU still created the GW being talked about. Sure Alistair may color the story somewhat, just like the Dwarf might, but it is still the tale of the GW. More to the point - you played Hawke and know the true story. Just as maybe you are cloaked in shadows at the corner of the Tavern, listening to Alistair and smiling over his exaggerations.



No different then a biography in real life. Overall the facts are close to the truth but maybe not 100%. Regardless the narration won't change what you did as Hawke. He/She will be you creating the story being narrated.



I am more curious about the end (which of course we won't know till we play). Will YOU still be alive, will there be some climatic ending in the current time? Will you have some entry or comment about what is being told about your life? Even then I still think it is your story.



The key point is that it is your story. It is just being told by someone else and becoming a form of a "codex" entry. The writers have already confirmed this - thank you by the way for all the input and spending time here keeping us in line :-)



Of course if you don't believe them ... well not much that can be done or proved then until the game comes out. At that point ... well the proof will be in the pudding as it were.

[BlackyBlack]

I'm not trolling. It was you that said: So we should rely on the devs word even if there is nothing ingame to prove everything did in fact happen as stated, so by your theories I'm pretty much correct

[tmp7704]

aberdash wrote...

There is a difference. Its Leliana telling
the story not someone who clams to have met Leliana at some point in
their life. If it was Hawke narrating their story I would have no problem.

So, if Leliana was instead telling the story of your Warden (or if it was Alistair or whoever) you wouldn't believe it?

What about the other characters who are present in Leliana's story then -- after all she is also telling what happened to Marjolaine, and Tug, and Sketch and the others although she isn't any of them. Do you disbelieve these aspects of her story because they aren't about her personally?

[Tinxa]

The way I imagine it to work is that most of the time what you are playing is what actually happened and that parts where you are onehitkilling everything are brief and clearly indentifiable as Varric exaggarating - they're just fun bits to play through with your godlike character. But mostly you will see Varric exaggerating in a cutscene and then you get to play out how it really happened.

The part in DAO with the Dalish elves would go something like this:

Varric: "And so the Grey Warden made his way to the Brecilian forest where Dalish elves greeted him excitedly and implored him to help them with a problem they were having..."

gameplay starts with the Dalish threatening your char and being very unfriendly

you choose to convince the keeper to stop the curse

Varric: "And the Grey Warden waved his hands in the air and singlehandedly released the Werewolves from their suffering and everyone rejoiced"

So you would see what really happened and see Varric exaggerating at the same time.

I could be wrong though

[aberdash]

Grommash94 wrote...

We don't know Leliana is telling the truth, however. 

We have no reason to assume she would lie about her past. The dwarf himself says he could just be making up stuff.

Modifié par aberdash, 26 juillet 2010 - 11:41 .

[BlackyBlack]

aberdash wrote...

Grommash94 wrote...

We don't know Leliana is telling the truth, however. 

We have no reason to assume she would lie about her past. The dwarf himself says he could just be making up stuff.

We also have no reason to assume the dwarf is making it all up. You also have NO proof that things went the way Leliana told them, so ANYBODY could be lying, all of Morrigan's and Alistair's stories could be lies, Oghren was probably never married and was just pretending, Duncan never died, just faked his own death etc etc. You don't have "proof" that ANYTHING really happend

Modifié par BlackyBlack, 26 juillet 2010 - 11:47 .

[Herr Uhl]

aberdash wrote...

Grommash94 wrote...

We don't know Leliana is telling the truth, however. 

We have no reason to assume she would lie about her past. The dwarf himself says he could just be making up stuff.

Yes, and so could she. The fact that he admits the possibility doesn't make it any more likely.

[Grommash94]

aberdash wrote...

Grommash94 wrote...

We don't know Leliana is telling the truth, however. 

We have no reason to assume she would lie about her past. The dwarf himself says he could just be making up stuff.

You haven't played the game, therefore you do not know if Cassandra meets Hawke, or if Hawke barges in on Verric, etc.

[aberdash]

Sure she could have made it up but I don't really care about those stupid mini campaigns so I really don't care if she did. Still she was at every event in her past and the dwarf was not at any or maybe very few events of Hawkes life. Unless of course the dwarf was actually a party member the entire time in which case I will be believe him.

Modifié par aberdash, 26 juillet 2010 - 11:47 .

[HopHazzard]

aberdash wrote...

Grommash94 wrote...

We don't know Leliana is telling the truth, however. 

We have no reason to assume she would lie about her past. The dwarf himself says he could just be making up stuff.

I have a lot of reason to assume she was lying. The story in Leliana's Song bears very little resemblance to the story she told my warden in camp. So she's definitely lying to someone.

[Lord_Saulot]

HopHazzard wrote...

aberdash wrote...

Grommash94 wrote...

We don't know Leliana is telling the truth, however. 

We have no reason to assume she would lie about her past. The dwarf himself says he could just be making up stuff.

I have a lot of reason to assume she was lying. The story in Leliana's Song bears very little resemblance to the story she told my warden in camp. So she's definitely lying to someone.

And her narration has an "I'm making up a story to entertain because I'm a bard" tone to it at some parts of Leliana's song.

Modifié par Lord_Saulot, 27 juillet 2010 - 12:00 .

[Artemis_Entrari]

After Mister Gaider's response, I'm feeling a little better about this. Though until I actually get to play this game, I'm going to remain somewhat leery of just how much "artistic freedom" these narrators have with how they describe what I do as Hawke.

[ImoenBaby]

aberdash wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Dude, we've already given you
examples of this thing in motion. I'm going to assume that you just get
off on naysaying at this point.

k bai

Actually, "k bai" yourself.  How unbelievably demeaning to ask someone if they've taken "a course in terrible game design 101". You disagree with something? Be a grown-up about it. But maybe if you had a reasonable and persuasive response, you would have.

[Anacronian Stryx]

Think of the movie "Usual Suspects" - Keyser Sose is being interviewed by an cop while we the player gets to play the story - Keyser could be sitting lying though his teeth about what really happened, while we get to see the truth (any way we want the truth to be by our actions)