76 réponses à ce sujet

[Thompson family]

[Spoilers Deleted]

Modifié par Thompson family, 27 juillet 2010 - 08:48 .

[s0meguy6665]

Ralnith wrote...

Shepards objective was to stop the collectors. Once that is done, there is no reason to keep him/her alive.

you're dead wrong. did you completely ignore ME's storyline? fine, shepard may be some threat to the organization, but there will be no cerberus at all if the reapers manage to come along.

Modifié par s0meguy6665, 27 juillet 2010 - 08:41 .

[s0meguy6665]

Thompson family wrote...

[Spoilers Deleted]

maybe read others arguments next time you post it's something people on this forum do far too little.

[IanPolaris]

s0meguy6665 wrote...

Ralnith wrote...

Shepards objective was to stop the collectors. Once that is done, there is no reason to keep him/her alive.

you're dead wrong. did you completely ignore ME's storyline? fine, shepard may be some threat to the organization, but there will be no cerberus at all if the reapers manage to come along.

That depends.  I don't think that TIM told Miranda (let alone Shepard) the truth (there's a shocker I know).

I think TIM wanted the collector base and it's Reaper/Prothean technology as the foundation of a Human-Cereberus Empire (he'd call that redundant) all along, and is thus his use of Shepard is a case of 'Making the Most of a Crisis', i.e. while everyone is scared about the Reapers, they don't pay attention to how much power TIM/Cereberus is getting.

Once Shepard torpedoes this plan by torching the base (at least the Paragon Shep), all that investment had just gone down the toilet, and I think at that point TIM would like nothing better than to roast Shepard gonads over an open fire.

-Polaris

[Thompson family]

s0meguy6665 wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

[Spoilers Deleted]

maybe read others arguments next time you post it's something people on this forum do far too little.

I deleted spoilers, not arguments.

Read the anti-spoilers rule next time you post It's something people on this forum do far too little.

[s0meguy6665]

IanPolaris wrote...

s0meguy6665 wrote...

Ralnith wrote...

Shepards objective was to stop the collectors. Once that is done, there is no reason to keep him/her alive.

you're dead wrong. did you completely ignore ME's storyline? fine, shepard may be some threat to the organization, but there will be no cerberus at all if the reapers manage to come along.

That depends.  I don't think that TIM told Miranda (let alone Shepard) the truth (there's a shocker I know).

I think TIM wanted the collector base and it's Reaper/Prothean technology as the foundation of a Human-Cereberus Empire (he'd call that redundant) all along, and is thus his use of Shepard is a case of 'Making the Most of a Crisis', i.e. while everyone is scared about the Reapers, they don't pay attention to how much power TIM/Cereberus is getting.

Once Shepard torpedoes this plan by torching the base (at least the Paragon Shep), all that investment had just gone down the toilet, and I think at that point TIM would like nothing better than to roast Shepard gonads over an open fire.

-Polaris

i'm pretty convinced the illusive man is smart enough to understand that it's not very good for his chances of survival if he turns on shepard, because of the 2 obvious reasons, shepard himself & the reaper threat. that is, if he has a self-preservation instinct, or wants to keep humanity alive.

besides, you definitely lose me here. the illusive man couldn't have known (at least it's very unlikely) what they would find on the other side of the relay, so he wouldn't have invested so much based on guesswork. he might've invested partly into his "political universe domination" plans but i think he invested in the survival of himself (at least, isn't that one of the things most important to us?)and humans first and foremost.

Modifié par s0meguy6665, 27 juillet 2010 - 09:10 .

[Ralnith]

I see absolutely no reason why Shepard is necessary to defeat the Reapers. Shepard is a powerful iconic figure who can unite the galaxy against the Reapers, but everyone will have to realize they can't survive alone when the Reapers actually attack. Before that happens, Cerberus is itself a powerful organization with lots of resources that is aware of the threat and actively fighting it. The same could be expected of the STG (even if the Council and the salarian government don't officialy acknowledge the existence of the Reapers, they still will investigate it) and maybe even other Spectres. So noone is completely unprepared and those organizations are (due to their size) more effective and potent than a single frigate crew.



Fighting the Reapers is clearly way easier with Shepard, but I don't think it's impossible without.

[s0meguy6665]

Ralnith wrote...

I see absolutely no reason why Shepard is necessary to defeat the Reapers. Shepard is a powerful iconic figure who can unite the galaxy against the Reapers, but everyone will have to realize they can't survive alone when the Reapers actually attack. Before that happens, Cerberus is itself a powerful organization with lots of resources that is aware of the threat and actively fighting it. The same could be expected of the STG (even if the Council and the salarian government don't officialy acknowledge the existence of the Reapers, they still will investigate it) and maybe even other Spectres. So noone is completely unprepared and those organizations are (due to their size) more effective and potent than a single frigate crew.

Fighting the Reapers is clearly way easier with Shepard, but I don't think it's impossible without.

so? that's the point all along. it is in everyone's (except those who are on the side of the reapers, or those who don't care about their own survival, the survival of their own species and that of every known lifeform in the universe) interest to help shepard. ty.

Modifié par s0meguy6665, 27 juillet 2010 - 09:08 .

[IanPolaris]

s0meguy6665 wrote...

 i'm pretty convinced the illusive man is smart enough to understand that it's not very good for his chances of survival if he turns on shepard, because of the 2 obvious reasons, shepard himself & the reaper threat. that is, if he has a self-preservation instinct, or wants to keep humanity alive.

I'm not so sure.  To be sure, I think that TIM very much believes in the Reaper threat and thinks that Shepard (at least for now) is the best way to rally forces to oppose it.  However in this case (the Paragon Shep case), I also don't think that TIM is dumb enough to forget that Shepard is diametrically opposed to TIM's very existance at least in the long run.  Given this, if I were TIM, I'd be looking for a way to "cut out" Shep as soon as I possibly could even if I couldn't be absolutely sure what I'd find behind the Omega 4 relay.

besides, you definitely lose me here. the illusive man couldn't have known (at least it's very unlikely) what they would find on the other side of the relay, so he wouldn't have invested so much based on guesswork. he might've invested partly into his "political universe domination" plans but i think he wanted survival for himself and humans first and foremost.

I disagree.  At the start perhaps, but after a particular mission it becomes pretty clear that the collectors have to come from some sort of base chalk full of Reaper/Promethean tech and not a homeworld at all.  EDI says as much after that particular mission.....and given that TIM is most definately paranoid to have multiple cut-out plans on hand, he'd dust one off.

In short, I do think that TIM wants Shepard to suceed.  I also think that TIM also wants Shepard to either die or become a cats-paw while doing so (and if not, the base is a nice consolation prize).  I also think that in the pure paragon case, TIM is most definately angry enough and arrogant enough to think that he an take Shepard out.

-Polaris

[s0meguy6665]

Thompson family wrote...

s0meguy6665 wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

[Spoilers Deleted]

maybe read others arguments next time you post it's something people on this forum do far too little.

I deleted spoilers, not arguments.

Read the anti-spoilers rule next time you post It's something people on this forum do far too little.

OK then i overestimated you. my mistake.

[Thompson family]

No problem, s0meguy6665. Good hunting.

[Skilled Seeker]

Thompson family wrote...

s0meguy6665 wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

[Spoilers Deleted]

maybe read others arguments next time you post it's something people on this forum do far too little.

I deleted spoilers, not arguments.

Read the anti-spoilers rule next time you post It's something people on this forum do far too little.

pwnt

[s0meguy6665]

IanPolaris wrote...

I'm not so sure.  To be sure, I think that TIM very much believes in the Reaper threat and thinks that Shepard (at least for now) is the best way to rally forces to oppose it.  However in this case (the Paragon Shep case), I also don't think that TIM is dumb enough to forget that Shepard is diametrically opposed to TIM's very existance at least in the long run.  Given this, if I were TIM, I'd be looking for a way to "cut out" Shep as soon as I possibly could even if I couldn't be absolutely sure what I'd find behind the Omega 4 relay.

so, first he revives shepard to fight the reaper threat, fully knowing that he will likely be opposed to some of his methods (and not installing any control measures like miranda mentioned) and then he decides to try to kill him when he acts as would be expected of him, and only part of the reaper threat is destroyed. genius plan. not to mention that as part of his genius plan, he puts shepard in a position where he can decide the fate of the collector base alone. if he invested knowingly to get his hands on that technology (and if he's as paranoid as you say he is), he would've put in place extra measures to ensure shepard wouldn't do that. again, I think we can conclude that he invested into the survival of himself and humanity first and foremost, and political power, but since political power is useless (or rather, non-existent) without being alive, i think it's more about survival than anything else. political power can be gained later if he's still alive.

only an idiot charges into battle knowing he'd very likely die (and gain nothing from dieing). I don't think he's an idiot, in fact to get in his position he'd probably have to be a genius. a calculating one that wouldn't risk everything over anger or arrogance. the base is gone, and he can't do anything about it. but he can help shepard to try to guide things the right way for him.

[s0meguy6665]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

s0meguy6665 wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

[Spoilers Deleted]

maybe read others arguments next time you post it's something people on this forum do far too little.

I deleted spoilers, not arguments.

Read the anti-spoilers rule next time you post It's something people on this forum do far too little.

pwnt

another intelligent contribution.

Modifié par s0meguy6665, 27 juillet 2010 - 09:51 .

[Cra5y Pineapple]

Shepard has powerful friends. He/she is friends with not only the supreme leader of Krogan but also a powerful information broker.



And he/she might still have a chance to get back into the Alliance and Spectres.

[Skilled Seeker]

s0meguy6665 wrote...

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

s0meguy6665 wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

[Spoilers Deleted]

maybe read others arguments next time you post it's something people on this forum do far too little.

I deleted spoilers, not arguments.

Read the anti-spoilers rule next time you post It's something people on this forum do far too little.

pwnt

another intelligent contribution.

As intelligent as yours for sure.

[IanPolaris]

s0meguy6665 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I'm not so sure.  To be sure, I think that TIM very much believes in the Reaper threat and thinks that Shepard (at least for now) is the best way to rally forces to oppose it.  However in this case (the Paragon Shep case), I also don't think that TIM is dumb enough to forget that Shepard is diametrically opposed to TIM's very existance at least in the long run.  Given this, if I were TIM, I'd be looking for a way to "cut out" Shep as soon as I possibly could even if I couldn't be absolutely sure what I'd find behind the Omega 4 relay.

so, first he revives shepard to fight the reaper threat, fully knowing that he will likely be opposed to some of his methods (and not installing any control measures like miranda mentioned) and then he decides to try to kill him when he acts as would be expected of him, and only part of the reaper threat is destroyed. genius plan. not to mention that as part of his genius plan, he puts shepard in a position where he can decide the fate of the collector base alone. if he invested knowingly to get his hands on that technology (and if he's as paranoid as you say he is), he would've put in place extra measures to ensure shepard wouldn't do that. again, I think we can conclude that he invested into the survival of himself and humanity first and foremost, and political power, but since political power is useless (or rather, non-existent) without being alive, i think it's more about survival than anything else. political power can be gained later if he's still alive.

Again, I respectfully disagree.  I am sure that personal survival had a lot to do with it at first, but TIM is nothing if not a gambler, and that shows in pretty much all of Cerberus' projects.   As for deciding the fate of the collector base alone, TIM did not put Shep in sole charge of that.  TIM thought that he had a backup plan in either EDI, Miranda or both......and they both turned on TIM.

only an idiot charges into battle knowing he'd very likely die (and gain nothing from dieing). I don't think he's an idiot, in fact to get in his position he'd probably have to be a genius. a calculating one that wouldn't risk everything over anger or arrogance. the base is gone, and he can't do anything about it. but he can help shepard to try to guide things the right way for him.

Frankly given Cerberus' track record with all their other projects, I do think that TIM is the sort of idiot that you mention.

-Polaris

[Thompson family]

s0meguy6665 wrote...

... first he revives shepard to fight the reaper threat, fully knowing that he will likely be opposed to some of his methods (and not installing any control measures like miranda mentioned) and then he decides to try to kill him when he acts as would be expected of him, and only part of the reaper threat is destroyed

I agree with s0meguy here. TIM has sunk most of Cerberus assets into reviving Shepard and building the new Normandy, which Shepard now commands with the absolute loyalty of the crew and EDI. As the English say: "Someone who loans me 1,000 pounds is a creditor. Somebody who's loaned me a million is a partner" -- whether he likes it or not.

[Naltair]

My Shepard is a Spectre, he can go wherever he wants.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Any chance we could continue this in the spoiler section? I think this topic will eventually get closed in General Discussion as it's very nature is bound to enter spoilery waters.

[EtTuBrute]

Is there any way a mod can move this thread, then?
I still don't think the Alliance and the Hierarchy are going to let Shepard coming back with a Cerberus-built Normandy slide. That's like if Jack Bauer showed up with a nuclear submarine made by Al-Qaeda in San Francisco bay. The DoD is going to say "WTF" and take everyone aboard prisoner to find out just how they did it, even though it's Jack Bauer onboard. Then Cerberus is inevitably going to retaliate, with bad results.

Modifié par EtTuBrute, 27 juillet 2010 - 11:34 .

[IanPolaris]

EtTuBrute wrote...

Is there any way a mod can move this thread, then?
I still don't think the Alliance and the Hierarchy are going to let Shepard coming back with a Cerberus-built Normandy slide. That's like if Jack Bauer showed up with a nuclear submarine made by Al-Qaeda in San Francisco bay. The DoD is going to say "WTF" and take everyone aboard prisoner to find out just how they did it, even though it's Jack Bauer onboard. Then Cerberus is inevitably going to retaliate, with bad results.

I agree that this topic probably should be moved, but alas I am not a mod.  I am trying to do the best with the topic and forum rules until then.

As for the above point, I disagree.  It would be like Jack Bauer showing up with UBL's HEAD in a nuclear submarine build by Al Qaeda in San Fran Bay.  One way or the other the DoD would cover it up especially if the Russians or Chinese were willing to give a place in their navies with full military honors.

Basically the Paragon Shep has the Alliance (and the Turian Heirarchy) by the short and curlies.  The Council explicitly reinstated his spectre status on the condition that (s)he stick to the terminus systems and deal with the collector threat.  That done, there's not much the Alliance can do....especially given the hugely powerful political forces within the Asari Republics (remember that Samara is not only a Justicar but also an Asari Matriarch) and the Salarians (both Solus and Kirrahe are hugely important within the Salarian STG).

In short, Paragon Shepard can write his own ticket and while I have no doubt that a lot of Alliance Admirals would agree with TIM and love to roast his gonads over an open flame, they don't dare do anything but pretend that this was a very elaborate undercover/black-op.  I can even see the Turian Councillor pushing this (along with the Heira chy) in order to save face (since the Heiarchy loves paragon Shepard only slightly more than the Alliance does).

-Polaris

[angj57]

Paragon Shepard has plenty of places to go.

First, the Illusive Man's primary goal is to stop the Reapers, and he is the ultimate pragmatist. No matter how angry he is over Shepard's decisions, he will still support Shepard's war against the Reapers.

I'm not sure what the Council will end up doing. They might not fully commit until it is too late. But there are plenty of non-Council races that would be willing to help with a little persuasion, such as the Quarians and Krogan.

The Alliance will eventually come around, especially if Anderson has power.

And we already have a very powerful ally against the Reapers in the *not going to post who they are in the non-spoiler section* race (think of the last companion you pick up in the game).

[tmk]

s0meguy6665 wrote...
it was fun watching miranda defy the illusive man without question when rigging the station to explode. she's clearly on shepard's side.

I wonder... does she still do that if you take Jack along as well?