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[GifMike]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Christmas Ape wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The Citadel Council presumably? They are the ones who make the call of who gets to be a spectre or not. Admiral Hackett, Captain Anderson and Ambassador Udina were discussion who they thought would be the best one.

Two problems here.
1. Why in the world would the Council listen to their recommendation? They don't seem to believe a damn thing we say to them without shoving their faces in proof. 
2. Nihlus tells you he put your name forward for consideration, and the recommendation of another Spectre seems a far more likely "in" than that of some random Alliance brass and the Ambassador whose very job description is "push human interests".

Well they obviously thought well enough of the Alliance and of you in general to make you a spectre. I thought it was clear that Udina was invovled with the Council in choosing the process of selecting first human spectre prior to their final decsion. It was certainly something that was significant enough to warrent a lot of careful consideration by both the galaxy's leaders and the leaders of the species they chose. Otherwise, was it just a coincidence that Nihlus and Udina chose Shepard at the same time to save the galaxy?

I'm curious at Nihlus's motavations.

[Zulu_DFA]

Moiaussi wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

GifMike wrote...

I posted a vid on youtube showing all his little signals, but noone agreed with me.  I must be the only one.  I thought about trying to play up the angle for the ME2 Movie, but Jokers just so darn likable, i didn't want to alienate people.  He does seem more loyal to Shepard so the point is basically moot.  I still don't trust him though.

1. Joker was not a Cerberus agent. Proof: see "Shepard dies after keeping the C-Base" ME2 ending. Joker talks to TIM and is unsure about TIM's plans about "beyond the Reapers"...

2. But he is not against Cerberus. Why would he? Why should all people in ME universe like aliens? It's good when the aliens are only in a videogame, but it's completely another thing to have them in real life, which is the situation of Joker, Ashley, Pressley, Finch, Saracino and TIM. The Human colonial government (aka Systems Alliance) tries to make nice with the alien governments but that does not make all terrans somehow love the aliens. Of course, there are people like Kelly too, but are they in majority? I doubt it. Mess sergeant Gardner appears to be the one most typical "man of the masses".

How do you explain him refusing to lay in a course any time the Illusive Man wishes to speak with Shep?

Pure "redcliffing" of players into "sense of urgency" by BioWare.

[OBakaSama]

Moiaussi wrote...

Note that xenophobia is not a requirement for a Cerebus operative. If you think it is, you really need to talk to the crew of the Normandy more in ME 2. The Cerebus crew is, if anything, less xenophobic than the crew of the original.

Yes to that. It was something I noticed while playing too. None of the new crew seem to have a problem with aliens.

sapientia24 wrote...

With
joker since they know that joker is supposed to be the best pilot they
also let joker know and i'm sure chakwas that the normandy is rebuilt or
is in the process of being rebuilt and they want joker to fly it as
well.

If I recall, Joker told Shepard that they only told him about the Normandy last night, so he couldn't have known about the new Normandy in advance. My guess would be that Cerberus let them know they were trying to bring Shepard back, and that was a motivating factor for them (Joker being allowed to fly is another for him, but why did the Alliance ground him?). Otherwise, how could Chakwas be on the Normandy before Shepard steps on board? (Unless Freedom's Progress took a long time....)

[GifMike]

OBakaSama wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Note that xenophobia is not a requirement for a Cerebus operative. If you think it is, you really need to talk to the crew of the Normandy more in ME 2. The Cerebus crew is, if anything, less xenophobic than the crew of the original.

Yes to that. It was something I noticed while playing too. None of the new crew seem to have a problem with aliens.

sapientia24 wrote...

With
joker since they know that joker is supposed to be the best pilot they
also let joker know and i'm sure chakwas that the normandy is rebuilt or
is in the process of being rebuilt and they want joker to fly it as
well.

If I recall, Joker told Shepard that they only told him about the Normandy last night, so he couldn't have known about the new Normandy in advance. My guess would be that Cerberus let them know they were trying to bring Shepard back, and that was a motivating factor for them (Joker being allowed to fly is another for him, but why did the Alliance ground him?). Otherwise, how could Chakwas be on the Normandy before Shepard steps on board? (Unless Freedom's Progress took a long time....)

I think Joker went to Cerberus long before he had any idea Shepard was coming back.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Moiaussi wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...
How do you explain him refusing to lay in a course any time the Illusive Man wishes to speak with Shep?

Bad writing and railroad plot?

Heh, but if you are willing to go there, there is no point discussing any aspect of the plot.

Your only concern has to be retcons to try to cover up the holes later, which is like patching a hole with a hole.

[KainrycKarr]

KainrycKarr wrote...

You guys are reading way too much into it.

Way, WAY too much.

[GifMike]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...
How do you explain him refusing to lay in a course any time the Illusive Man wishes to speak with Shep?

Bad writing and railroad plot?

Heh, but if you are willing to go there, there is no point discussing any aspect of the plot.

Your only concern has to be retcons to try to cover up the holes later, which is like patching a hole with a hole.

That sounds dirty, is it dirty?

[Moiaussi]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Your only concern has to be retcons to try to cover up the holes later, which is like patching a hole with a hole.

The choices are (1) bad writing, or (2) something meaningful.

Bad writing isn't worth discussing, so.....

It may be that Joker became a Cerebus fanatic only after the alliance abandoned everyone. He never did go planetside, so he wouldn't have seen any of the failed experiments or risks Cerebus operations placed on the galaxy first hand. It is not even a given that Shep talked about them with him. How many times did any of our shep's actually go forward to talk with Joker after missions (especially since his dialogue didn't really change).

Note that the Illusive Man seems to give you more choice than Joker does, so it isn't even a given that it is pure railroading.. or the writers were being uncertain how railroaded you are.

Regardless, it is an explaination for Joker's behavior, and as for retconning, what evidence is there that he isn't or wasn't a Cerebus agent? If someone is a competent sleeper agent, how would you know barring finding some incriminating evidence in the foreign agency's files? Attitudes towards aliens mean nothing. Not all Cerebus agents are fanatic xenophobes.

[OBakaSama]

@ GifMike: yeah. That's why I was presenting Joker as having two possible motivations (getting to be a pilot and Shepard's return). Chakwas could conceivably follow Joker due to his condition, but her line about working for Shepard and not Cerberus suggests (though I'm not saying it's certain) that she knew about Shepard. When she knew is the question. It seems obvious that she doesn't like Cerberus from her first conversation, and trusts Shepard that his/her dealings with them would be ethical.



Question would be: what story relevance would Joker's being a Cerberus agent in ME1 serve? And if he is, how was a pilot supposed to influence Shepard in the important things? I think the second question is more pressing personally. But you'd think that the person best placed to be a sleeper agent would have been someone capable of influencing Shepard from the beginningis someone close to him/her. So (wild conjecture alert...you have been warned) Kaidan would have been a better candidate for that role. (You're not supposed to take that seriously by the way.)

[GifMike]

OBakaSama wrote...

@ GifMike: yeah. That's why I was presenting Joker as having two possible motivations (getting to be a pilot and Shepard's return). Chakwas could conceivably follow Joker due to his condition, but her line about working for Shepard and not Cerberus suggests (though I'm not saying it's certain) that she knew about Shepard. When she knew is the question. It seems obvious that she doesn't like Cerberus from her first conversation, and trusts Shepard that his/her dealings with them would be ethical.

Question would be: what story relevance would Joker's being a Cerberus agent in ME1 serve? And if he is, how was a pilot supposed to influence Shepard in the important things? I think the second question is more pressing personally. But you'd think that the person best placed to be a sleeper agent would have been someone capable of influencing Shepard from the beginningis someone close to him/her. So (wild conjecture alert...you have been warned) Kaidan would have been a better candidate for that role. (You're not supposed to take that seriously by the way.)

When Joker would have been installed as a spy, it would have been to spy on the alliance.  Shepard was just a member of the crew so probably wouldn't have mattered much to a cerebus spy.  No one knew him as hero or spectre yet, so I don't think influensing Shepard would have been why he was placed there. It seemed Joker had been there long before Shepard came aboard.   Conjecture.

Modifié par GifMike, 26 août 2010 - 11:53 .

[OBakaSama]

True, true. (Nodding in agreement.)

But...isn't all this conjecture anyway?

[GifMike]

OBakaSama wrote...

True, true. (Nodding in agreement.)

But...isn't all this conjecture anyway?

Everything to do with their individual motavations yes,  mine technically was conjecture on conjecture.