159 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

Finally finished the read after many interruptions and I must say.. I don't see how the events of the novel can unfold with a Councilor Anderson, unless Udina for some reason became a badass and took his spot.

[Rivercurse]

OnyxJaguar, yes of course it does, that's the price you pay for not playing the game yourself and establishing your own story.

[Onyx Jaguar]

No, its crappy and unimaginative writing. They say they have a universe but it seems like they only have Shepard and the events around them.

[Wolverfrog]

Anderson, in the Alliance Military, is almost definitely an Admiral now. The fact that in the Council he's maybe a Councillor has nothing to do with it. The same way Shepard is still a Commander even thought he's a Spectre.



As for Udina, well... perhaps he fills in for Anderson when he's gone. Eh, I don't know.



:/

[Dave of Canada]

Wolverfrog wrote...

Anderson, in the Alliance Military, is almost definitely an Admiral now. The fact that in the Council he's maybe a Councillor has nothing to do with it. The same way Shepard is still a Commander even thought he's a Spectre.

As for Udina, well... perhaps he fills in for Anderson when he's gone. Eh, I don't know.

:/

Would make sense if they didn't say that Anderson was Udina's advisor.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Sounds like top notch writing ability

[Wolverfrog]

Well then the only way I can see it working is if after Mass Effect 2, Anderson steps down as Councillor so he can get back to commanding a ship/fleet. Udina takes up his mantle, and occasionally Anderson will advise him on important, military matters.



Of course, if Mass Effect 3 keeps Anderson as Councillor... bleh.

[Jaron Oberyn]

This is why book adaptations of video games aren't good. Especially for an RPG. It shouldn't conflict with the different outcomes of the game. Why can't Bioware have the writers write about Mass Effect during another time period other than Shepards?



-Polite

[Onyx Jaguar]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

This is why book adaptations of video games aren't good. Especially for an RPG. It shouldn't conflict with the different outcomes of the game. Why can't Bioware have the writers write about Mass Effect during another time period other than Shepards?

-Polite

Because that makes sense and is what other writers do, and the writers of ME don't make any sense, so in turn that is not what they do.

[Rivercurse]

OJ wth is that supposed to mean?



They do have a universe, the IP is Mass Effect. Less than 1% of the galaxy has been explored.



This trilogy of books and trilogy of games is about Sheps story arc.

[Dave of Canada]

mashavasilec wrote...

 so in other ME universe
Udina goes looking for Kahlee Sanders
because it has to be an advisor

Anderson, as councilor, couldn't have gone searching for Sanders though. A Councilor can't simply stand aside and say "Yeah, brb important mission" and then go around to Omega and blow **** up.
Either Udina stepped up to the plate to save the universe (lolwut) or these events were played out very differently with a Councilor Anderson that we'll never know.

[angj57]

They may be "canon" in the books but they won't be canon in the games. The video games are the flagship product and are worth thousands of times what the books are to the company. They aren't going to mess up the video games by taking what happens in the book and forcing it to be canon in the games.

[nokori3byo]

I think the irony here is that the novels are a "completists only" type of afair, and completists are precisely the kind of people to carp over relatively inconsequential details of canon. 
Yeah, I too was surprised to see that one of two choices from ME had been taken and made "canon."  Never mind that this detail can even be changed at the outset of ME2(!!!); it's obviously an important story point.  So Retribution chooses to portray Anderson as an assistant to Councillor Udina.  Could this have been avoided?  Why yes, if the writer hadn't insisted on depolying an aging politician as an action hero.   As it stands, the matter of A's job in the days leading up to the third novel are effectively mooted by story events.  Not the way I would have written it, but it doesn't interfere with my enjoyment of the game in the slightest.

[didymos1120]

Here's my guess on the Anderson situation:

As we saw, he wasn't the most effective Councilor.  He just hates playing the political game too much, and he keeps insisting that the Reapers are coming, which nobody in the political hierarchy, human or alien, is interested in hearing about.  He's also a bit of a loose cannon: not informing anyone in the Alliance about inviting Shepard by for a private meeting with the Council, defying Udina in ME1 and aiding what effectively was a mutiny, etc.   These things may have been allowed to slide for various reasons, but they couldn't have possibly met with universal acclaim from Alliance officials, and you can bet a lot of aliens didn't like them either, even if on average they were grateful for Saren's defeat.   We also have to keep in mind that a Councilor is the representative for their species, even if officially they're supposed to be impartial and above-it-all.  He's humanity's representative:  i.e.  he doesn't really "belong" to himself, and he can't just ignore public or Alliance opinion.

So, I'm thinking that for a Shep who selected Anderson as Councilor, the story come ME3 will be that Udina and other like minded individuals in both the Alliance and the Citadel politically outmaneuvered Anderson and made it so he just plain couldn't function as a Councilor. It's not like the position makes one King/Queen of humanity, and people aren't just going to obey your every whim and cooperate with whatever agenda you may have.  So, if it got into a situation where the top Alliance officials, military and civilian,  just plain lacked confidence in Anderson-as-Councilor and were engaging in obstructionism and the like, and the nature of the situation became clear to the other Councilors, Anderson would pretty much have to step down. 

Now, they of course wouldn't want to disgrace him.  He's still one of humanity's heroes and respected for his military service and role in Saren's defeat, however unorthodox the latter was.  So, instead, they promote him to Admiral and simultaneously demote him to Citadel diplomat and advisor to the newly-installed Councilor Udina.  It's still a prestigious position and saves some face for all involved, and neatly gets him out the way and into a position where he's got much less freedom and (theoretically) less ability to cause problems.

Of course, that can't go into the novel.  To explain it in that fashion would irrevocably canonize the "Councilor Anderson" choice.  But, as the novel stands, they actually can accomodate either choice:  either Anderson always was subordinate to Udina, or he was ousted shortly after the events of ME2 and replaced by Udina.  For the latter case, all that needs be done is to add some expository dialogue to that effect in ME3 if you chose Anderson.

Or, they just decided "Screw it: Councilor Udina it is."

Modifié par didymos1120, 28 juillet 2010 - 03:06 .

[Dave of Canada]

didymos1120 wrote...

Here's my guess on the Anderson situation:

As we saw, he wasn't the most effective Councilor.  He just hates playing the political game too much, and he keeps insisting that the Reapers are coming, which nobody in the political hierarchy, human or alien, is interested in hearing about.  He's also a bit of a loose cannon: not informing anyone in the Alliance about inviting Shepard by for a private meeting with the Council, defying Udina in ME1 and aiding what effectively was a mutiny, etc.   These things may have been allowed to slide for various reasons, but they couldn't have possibly met with universal acclaim from Alliance officials, and you can bet a lot of aliens didn't like them either, even if on average they were grateful for Saren's defeat.   We also have to keep in mind that a Councilor is the representative for their species, even if officially they're supposed to be impartial and above-it-all.  He's humanity's representative:  i.e.  he doesn't really "belong" to himself, and he can't just ignore public or Alliance opinion.

So, I'm thinking that for a Shep who selected Anderson as Councilor, the story come ME3 will be that Udina and other like minded individuals in both the Alliance and the Citadel politically outmaneuvered Anderson and made it so he just plain couldn't function as a Councilor. It's not like the position makes one King/Queen of humanity, and people aren't just going to obey your every whim and cooperate with whatever agenda you may have.  So, if it got into a situation where the top Alliance officials, military and civilian,  just plain lacked confidence in Anderson-as-Councilor and were engaging is obstructionism and the like, and the nature of the situation became clear to the other Councilors, Anderson would pretty much have to step down. 

Now, they of course wouldn't want to disgrace him.  He's still one of humanity's heroes and respected for his military service and role in Saren's defeat, however unorthodox the latter was.  So, instead, they promote him to Admiral and simultaneously demote him to Citadel diplomat and advisor to the newly-installed Councilor Udina.  It's still a prestigious position and saves some face for all involved, and neatly gets him out the way and into a position where he's got much less freedom and (theoretically) less ability to cause problems.

Of course, that can't go into the novel.  To explain it in that fashion would irrevocably canonize the "Councilor Anderson" choice.  But, as the novel stands, they actually can accomodate either choice:  either Anderson always was subordinate to Udina, or he was ousted shortly after the events of ME2 and replaced by Udina.  For the latter case, all that needs be done is to add some expository dialogue to that effect in ME3 if you chose Anderson.

Or, they just decided "Screw it: Councilor Udina it is."

But essentially, that would create that the choice for Councilor to be kind of pointless coming into Mass Effect 3 where regardless of what you've done - Udina is always the councilor.

[jmood88]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...

This is why book adaptations of video games aren't good. Especially for an RPG. It shouldn't conflict with the different outcomes of the game. Why can't Bioware have the writers write about Mass Effect during another time period other than Shepards?

-Polite

Because that makes sense and is what other writers do, and the writers of ME don't make any sense, so in turn that is not what they do.

So why play the games and read the books?

[jmood88]

Rapturian wrote...

I'm not upset over this, but an answer from BioWare would be nice. Though I doubt that'll happen anytime soon. And what's that about Shepard saving the Collectors station statement? Is that true?

No it's not true. All that was said is that the Collectors were destroyed and the remnants of the whole Collector mission is what was used by Cerberus.

[jmood88]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...
Way to miss the point of an RPG.

The devs are classifying ME2 as a shooter.

That's not true at all.

[nokori3byo]

Dave of Canada wrote...

But essentially, that would create that the choice for Councilor to be kind of pointless coming into Mass Effect 3 where regardless of what you've done - Udina is always the councilor.

Well, I don't know that not affecting ME3 makes it "pointless."  It affects the way the Council meeting in ME2 unfolds, as well as possibly whether Shep is offered reinstatement as a Spectre.  Either way, the choice of Councilor in ME is almost an afterthought, as I've pointed out.  Practically speaking, you select the Councillor on the shuttle leaving the Cerberus Station during Jacob and Miranda's little questionaire.  How's that for retconning?

[didymos1120]

Dave of Canada wrote...
But essentially, that would create that the choice for Councilor to be kind of pointless coming into Mass Effect 3 where regardless of what you've done - Udina is always the councilor.

You say that as if that somehow invalidates the idea. The point is that the choice isn't necessarily erased by Retribution.  There's a plausible way for them to have it both ways.  Besides:  how "point-ful"  was our choice of Councilor anyway?  It was never going to have a huge impact on the main story, period, and if you believed it would you were fooling yourself. 

Still, I don't really agree with the "pointless" descriptor.  Assuming they go with something like my hypothetical scenario, there will still be two distinct histories, and they can still make use of Anderson's time as Councilor by referencing it in dialogue and the codex and possibly even a sidequest.  That would be no different than the way other choices have handled, and thus it would have a "point".

For instance, the rachni: do you really think their presence of absence will have a large effect on the main plot?  Either way, you can be sure Shep will save the day in ME3.  It'll simply be saved in a slightly different fashion in each case.  If the fact that the story will always converge on certain "pre-destined" outcomes no matter what players have chosen is the criterion we're using, then that decision is pointless too.  And so are all the rest. 

[REShepard]

Well, all I can say is that I hope they explain it well enough in the beginning of ME3 as to why Udina is now the Councillor and Anderson is the head of a research operation involving Reaper technology...



Honestly, they need to consider one of those old school books that let you "create" your own story, like Goosebumps. "Go to page 125 if your Shepard chose Udina as Councillor."

[BatarianBob]

If they wanted to enforce an Udina as councillor outcome, they already passed on a perfectly good and logical way to do it.



"We appreciate your recommendation, Shepard, but the voters of the Alliance decided otherwise. Like it or not, that's how the system works, right?"



That's why I'd bet good money that when it comes to ME3 it'll be Retribution, not ME2, that gets disregarded.