70 réponses à ce sujet

[ncknck]

@John.Galt

>With two healers it doesn't matter who takes the damage - it always gets healed.



But here is the catch, with infinite/abundant potions healing spells dont matter. Only need someone with revival, for emergency. And if potions are a concern, once these mages are OoM their dps drops to near zero. If there was any to begin with. I can quite honestly see nothing in mage's spellbook which would, in a long run, outdamage a backstabbing dagger rogue. That guy always hits for WTFdamage. and mages have cooldowns, mana, and resistant/immune enemies to deal with too.



Alistair can be self-sufficient on potions, a rogue deal sick damage, and a mage, instead of healing can cast AoE debuffs. Dont need healing. Ofc to each its own, but id pick Alistair any time instead of a second mage.

[Cyb3rjackal]

Human Noble Warrior (W&S) --> Berserker / Templar / Spirit Warrior
~  Alistair, Leliana, & either Wynne or Shale

Dwarf Noble Warrior (2h) --> Berserker / Reaver
~  Alistair or Oghren, Leliana, & either Wynne or Shale

Human Mage --> Spirit Healer / Arcane Warrior / Battlemage
~  Alistair, either Oghren or Shale, & either Leliana or Zevran

Dalish Elf Rogue (DW) --> Assassin / Duelist / Shadow
~  Alistair, either Oghren or Shale, & either Leliana or Wynne

Modifié par Morkavah, 28 juillet 2010 - 07:40 .

[orpheus333]

The most powerful party i've used has been;



Oghren/Sten (With Berzerker to increase damage output)

PC (Arcane Warrior/Blood Mage with FIre Line as well as Paralysis and Crushing Prison etc great crowd control, aoe damage and amazing auto-attack damage and tanking ability)

Zevran (Dual-Wield backstabs and bombs, also I invested tomes of technique in getting him stealth and full deft hands)

Morrigan or Wynne (I alternate between these two as I can't tell what is better. Wynne gives more staying power for bosses but with Morrigan regular mooks die incredibly quickly)

[John.Galt]

@nc:

If you need to use potions, (Outside of a few bosses) you suck at this game. No offense. This game is hella easy. But granted, the same applies for my party setup. If you need to use something that rigged, you suck.

The point is this: With three healers, all of which have some dps on the side (I maxed at least one elemental tree on each, in addition to other stuff. You also hit them up with all the +ele damage items for their specific tree.) Inferno + Blizzard + Tempest (I never even used SoC), with PC standing in the middle being healed by 3 people, and everything around you dies in a matter of seconds.

It's a boss? OK. Winters grasp + crushing prison ad nauseam.

Point is this: If your party comes up against mine, you might dps for more, but I have practically infinite health. I'll just absorb it, and wear you down. But in reality, that's not true. I'd just stun/freeze/immobilize your rogue.

Modifié par John.Galt, 28 juillet 2010 - 12:50 .

[Y2Kevin]

In my main playthrough I usually use Morrigan (who due to some unfortunate circumstances is my only mage, and thus my only healer), Leliana, Sten, and my two-handed warrior Warden. Sometimes I swap out Sten for Shale, because Shale is an absolute BEAST!

Modifié par Y2Kevin, 28 juillet 2010 - 01:26 .

[soteria]

The point is this: With three healers, all of which have some dps on the side (I maxed at least one elemental tree on each, in addition to other stuff. You also hit them up with all the +ele damage items for their specific tree.) Inferno + Blizzard + Tempest (I never even used SoC), with PC standing in the middle being healed by 3 people, and everything around you dies in a matter of seconds.

It's a boss? OK. Winters grasp + crushing prison ad nauseam.

Point is this: If your party comes up against mine, you might dps for more, but I have practically infinite health. I'll just absorb it, and wear you down. But in reality, that's not true. I'd just stun/freeze/immobilize your rogue.

This is a single player game. Why would you, me, or anyone else care what would happen if "your party comes up against mine"? Why would I care about outlasting any enemy? Just kill them and be done with it. Your party makeup needs to do two things: get you through the fights and keep you entertained. Mine does both. Apparently, your "ideal" group fails at that. I'll stick with Alistair, thanks.

Modifié par soteria, 28 juillet 2010 - 03:07 .

[John.Galt]

You do that. If you haven't used a party setup like that, you can't talk about it.



I've used both Alistair and a three mage setup. I know from personal experience that three mages, all with heal, freaking rocks, and that Alistair is worthless.

[soteria]

You're the one who said it was so boring you couldn't finish the game. What exactly does "If you haven't used a party setup like that, you can't talk about it" even mean in the context of what I said?

As for taking three mages with heal, I find a single mage with heal to be largely superfluous with or without potions. Stopping to heal wastes time and mana that could be spent on CC and damage.

If Alistair sucks, it's your own fault--you built him.  SnS can be an effective build for either damage or mitigation, depending on how you want to work it.  Or, make him a dual wielder or whatever you want.  There's certainly nothing wrong with him that's not wrong with any other warrior.

Modifié par soteria, 28 juillet 2010 - 03:16 .

[John.Galt]

"that's not wrong with any other warrior."

Case in point.

"What exactly does "If you haven't used a party setup like that, you can't talk about it" even mean in the context of what I said?"

It means that if you haven't played a 3 mage party, all with heals, you can't realize how rigged it is.

And I never said they don't have damage or cc at all. It takes three skill points to get to rejuvination. Wynne and Morrigan both took group heal, so that's another point. So a total of 11 points across three characters - you still have plenty of points for damage, and that's where most of your mana goes.

Modifié par John.Galt, 28 juillet 2010 - 04:24 .

[Sir Pounce-a-lot]

In Origins, I beat the game with Alistair, Leilana, and Morrigan.  On my second playthrough, I'm a rogue archer (bard), and I'm using Alistair and Sten as my hand-to-hand warriors, and Wynne as the healer.  Some of Wynne's magic can be used to attack as well.  I maxed all of her healing capabilities, and chose some cold spells too.

In Awakenings, my final party included Justice, Sigrun, and Velanna.  I won't go into any more detail there since it sounds like you haven't played it yet.

[soteria]

"What exactly does "If you haven't used a party setup like that, you can't talk about it" even mean in the context of what I said?"

It means that if you haven't played a 3 mage party, all with heals, you can't realize how rigged it is.

Wait, earlier you said, "Anyone remotely familiar with the game sees how rigged that party is." Which is it? That's a direct contradiction. Unless you're arguing I'm not "remotely familiar with the game," maybe. If you were trying to build a group aimed at surviving every fight, then good job. Unfortunately for you, your "ideal" group also bored you so much you never even finished the game with it. Why would you even recommend something that bored you so much?

"that's not wrong with any other warrior."

Case in point.

You say that like there's some sort of empirical truth backing you up.

[WRFan]

everybody is tanking. so useless. I only tanked once, both in OC and Awakening, against the initial ogre boss. You should incapacitate enemies instead of stupid tanking that drains health like mad. My party setup in the OC: three mages (my wizardress, Wynne, Morrigan) and Leli. Tried taking Shale with me, cause his ability gives +10 spellpower to party, but doesn't work, cause all enemies run right to him and I step in every single trap on my way, so I kicked him out and took Leli in. As it happens, I romance Leli too, so having her along is good for role playing purposes as well. Like when trying to sleep with that duelist girl, Leli got all angry and wouldn't let me, haha. The girl is jealous.

Modifié par WRFan, 28 juillet 2010 - 05:17 .

[John.Galt]

I didn't say it was my ideal party. It was the party with which I had the most success, which is the title of this thread. It was definitely NOT the party with which I had the most fun.



And there is empirical truth backing me up. Anyone will tell you that mages and rogues beat warriors hands down.

[mousestalker]

@John.Galt



In my current playthrough I've specced all the warriors, including my PC, to be templars. Enemy mages die very very quickly.



I do think you and Soteria may be talking past each other a little bit.



Finally, as matter of interest he is one of three posters on these here forums I pay attention when they write about the hard and fast details of DA. He knows whereof he writes.

[John.Galt]

Sorry, I'm not really interested in a class that's designed to kill enemy mages. I'd rather just take a class designed to kill everything...

Holy Smite is the only decent talent in the tree, but it takes four to get there. I can drain mana with lighting from my three mages just as easily as I can with a templar.

Granted, getting templar talents is excusable, because your alternative warrior talents are just that bad.

Edit: Templar's one redeeming value is that it has access to some of the best armors in the game. Still, I'd rather have something decent that didn't just sit there and get whacked at.

Modifié par John.Galt, 28 juillet 2010 - 06:01 .

[soteria]

I didn't say it was my ideal party. It was the party with which I had the most success, which is the title of this thread. It was definitely NOT the party with which I had the most fun.

Most success? You never even finished. Maybe we're operating under different definitions of success, but quitting partway through because you couldn't stand to use that group setup anymore doesn't strike me as successful. If a group isn't fun to play with, how can that be called successful in a game? From what I've seen on these boards, you aren't alone in thinking that particular group isn't much fun. The same could be said of forcefield + taunt, and it could even be argued that a group built around forcefield + taunt is even more "effective."

And there is empirical truth backing me up. Anyone will tell you that mages and rogues beat warriors hands down.

Even if "anyone" would tell me that, personal opinion is hardly empirical evidence of the warrior's relative capabilities. I personally don't consider warriors to be clearly inferior to rogues and mages, so that eliminates myself from "anyone," for what that's worth. I know I'm not alone in that, either. For the record, I think warriors and rogues are roughly equal in power, and I have no way to objectively compare them to mages.

mousestalker wrote...

I do think you and Soteria may be talking past each other a little bit.

Finally, as matter of interest he is one of three posters on these here forums I pay attention when they write about the hard and fast details of DA. He knows whereof he writes.

You could be right, as I review the thread. Maybe I'm just disagreeing out of principle.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, though.

[ncknck]

John.Galt wrote...

If you need to use potions, (Outside of a few bosses) you suck at this game. No offense. 

None taken. I just explore all the possible options. As do you, stating, "boring but successful". You cant possibly ignore potions and talk about most successful, thats contradicting. Potions are part of the game. And as i said earlier, with potions that much healing is unnecessary. and w/o potions mages will be Out Of Mana fast. Thus having 3 mages is definitely not the best option available. Not to speak about that spells not only must pass a save check but also can face immunities. Winters grasp will deal zero damage vs some dragons and undead.

Point is this: If your party comes up against mine, you might dps for more, but I have practically infinite health. I'll just absorb it, and wear you down. But in reality, that's not true. I'd just stun/freeze/immobilize your rogue.

There is nothing in mage's spellbook which would make him last. Alistair with 100/100 res will save vs disabling effect, while himself having access to multiple stun talents, including scattershot. Turn 1: Scattershot. Turn 2: Holy Smite. Done.

Pointless talk ofc because its a single player game. What actually happens in MMO's is that the Tank spams Taunt and f*cks up targets of the enemy party, who in turn go down being bombarded by DD's fire, while trying to "stun/freeze/immobilize" the tank.

[John.Galt]

"I personally don't consider warriors to be clearly inferior to rogues and mages"



Rogues are best at DPS. Mages are best at CC. Warriors are the best at getting beat upside the head a lot.

[soteria]

In controlled situations with certain builds, rogues have the highest dps, sure. The higher damage a rogue can deal while backstabbing is generally offset by the time it takes to get into position in comparison to the higher average damage warriors will deal. Warriors also have not inconsiderable CC capabilities--far more than rogues, at least. And yes, they're tough. Warriors are solid. All the classes are, really.

Modifié par soteria, 28 juillet 2010 - 09:17 .

[ncknck]

>Rogues are best at DPS. Mages are best at CC. Warriors are the best at getting beat upside the head a lot.

Cant really generalize like that without testing it out in a combat situation with real enemies first.
For example Tanks are excellent in small scale Pvp and Bossfights(sums up DA) but worthless in larger scale Pvp, like castle siege, where they are simply ignored. Quite funny. And so are the daggers, who just never are able to make it through the concentrated archer fire to the enemy to deal any damage.

Modifié par ncknck, 28 juillet 2010 - 09:57 .

[Splindicator]

My standard party was a 2/2 setup also:

Me - Warrior
Sten
Morrigan - ranged  Arcane Warrior so she takes out a shield and sword if anyone gets close enough w/some healing
Leliana - archer and melee if someone gets too close

One gripe I have with this game and ME/1/2 is that there are so many characters I want to take more with me!  A party of 6 would be just about right I think!  I'd like to take Wynn and my dog, maybe Allister or Ohgren occasionally.

I liked Shale but it was too damn noisy.  Everytime I moved it felt like an earthquake following me from the surround speakers.  I love the way the rest of the party sounds on moving so Shale was retired to camp unfortunately.

Modifié par Splindicator, 28 juillet 2010 - 09:50 .

[Arthur Cousland]

Usually it's a combo of Alistair, Wynne, Leliana and Sten, depending on what class my warden is. During my templar playthrough, Alistair was left back at camp, while Wynne did the same during my mage playthrough.

[Djehmli]

My Party make up was Alistair as sword and board, Zevran as Rogue/Duelist, myself as Rogue/Duelist and Wynne for the heals. I set up the tactics so that Zevran would assist on my mobs which I would peel off of Alistair. If there were mages I had it set up that Zev and I would CC the mages then kill them off one by one while Alistair tanked the melee and peeled anything off of Wynne as needed.

My second run through I am going in as a 2 handed warrior, so will still keep Alistair sword and board I might turn Wynne into a damage dealer and run with the bard for the lock picking and just make up tons of potions.

My third run through will have me as healer, not sure what the rest will be.

[RPGRavenRPG]

Roleplaying here

2 layout

me and my gf Leliana and Alister and his Gf Morigann

quite effective

and also my fav of all is me,lel,alis and oghren