89 réponses à ce sujet

[Zy-El]

errant_knight wrote...

Zy-El wrote...

Saibh wrote...
:/ Hmm...Nah, I'm not going to pick it up until I hear something really good about it. And I have to wonder that with two gaming articles both saying "not a story DLC", how much this game honestly has to it. If there are no companions, I think it'd feel too "stand-alone".

But it's not a stand-alone DLC.

You can import your Warden from Origins or Awakening.  Your Warden gains xps, levels and gear.  It's an expansion.  The only continuity elements that will be lacking are to do with the personal relationships.  Maybe they'll deal with that in a real Expansion similar to Awakening's size - it would have to be, I'd think.  Who knows?  At the rate they're releasing DLC, we might see something like this in the next couple months . . .

Well what do you know? You just answered my question, at least partially, without the oxymoron snark.

I did not mean to be rude - apologies if I came off sounding like that.  The things I mentioned above were already in the Bioware announcement.  I'm just soooo excited by this.  And so soon after LS DLC! 

[errant_knight]

Zy-El wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Zy-El wrote...

Saibh wrote...
:/ Hmm...Nah, I'm not going to pick it up until I hear something really good about it. And I have to wonder that with two gaming articles both saying "not a story DLC", how much this game honestly has to it. If there are no companions, I think it'd feel too "stand-alone".

But it's not a stand-alone DLC.

You can import your Warden from Origins or Awakening.  Your Warden gains xps, levels and gear.  It's an expansion.  The only continuity elements that will be lacking are to do with the personal relationships.  Maybe they'll deal with that in a real Expansion similar to Awakening's size - it would have to be, I'd think.  Who knows?  At the rate they're releasing DLC, we might see something like this in the next couple months . . .

Well what do you know? You just answered my question, at least partially, without the oxymoron snark.

I did not mean to be rude - apologies if I came off sounding like that.  The things I mentioned above were already in the Bioware announcement.  I'm just soooo excited by this.  And so soon after LS DLC! 

Heh, my fault. It's past lunchtime and I get touchy when my blood sugar gets low. Better go eat.

[Demx]

Fernando Melo wrote...

I think "combat focused" is not a great way to describe it. It is not Darkspawn Chronicles. It is more in-line with what you would play in DA:O or Awakening, with voiced party member conversations, story, etc. The comment about your companion having a text line is the same ambient dialog system you've seen in DA:O/DA:O-A with all subtitles on (e.g. party banter), but i'm guessing the VO was too low to hear at the show.

But it is purposefully hard - we even added an achievement for beating it on Nightmare - and it is set on a new dwarven thaig. I suspect that's where some of the "combat focused" comments may be coming from.

Sweet, good to know. Sounds like it could be fun.

[Wonderllama4]

Can you bring your Origins or Awakening companions too? I'm gonna need a healer mage at least.

[Zy-El]

No previous companions in this new DLC. From what we've read so far, it appears you get 3 new companions who'll probably disappear at the end of it. None of them appear to be healers or even mages for that matter - maybe that's why it's going to be such a tough DLC.

[Saibh]

Zy-El wrote...

Saibh wrote...
:/ Hmm...Nah, I'm not going to pick it up until I hear something really good about it. And I have to wonder that with two gaming articles both saying "not a story DLC", how much this game honestly has to it. If there are no companions, I think it'd feel too "stand-alone".

But it's not a stand-alone DLC.

You can import your Warden from Origins or Awakening.  Your Warden gains xps, levels and gear.  It's an expansion.  The only continuity elements that will be lacking are to do with the personal relationships.  Maybe they'll deal with that in a real Expansion similar to Awakening's size - it would have to be, I'd think.  Who knows?  At the rate they're releasing DLC, we might see something like this in the next couple months . . .

I know it's not. But without your companions, it might as well be just a Warden-suit you're putting on. They could assumably (from what we've heard) put anyone in that position and just give the Warden XP and loot for it and call it a day. To me, that's not enough.

[silksieve]

DA_Joran wrote...

I don't know why everyone supports every single DLC that comes out or even gets excited. Someone has to pay for it -- you or your parents. Do a little math and see how much you have spent. Does the amount of extra game time feel like you spent the money wisely? I spent $12 on Warden's Keep and Return to Ostagar. Stone Prisoner was free as a promotional. Without the promo, Stone Prisoner is $15 for a total of $27. Throw in the other DLCs for those that get all of them and you have spent another $12 -- a total of $39 for everything currently available. Awakenings still sells for $39.99. What is my point? It takes anywhere from 50-80 hours to play the base game which sells (or did sell) for $59.99. For $39, the DLC content should add another 15-20 hours of gameplay.
DLCs are a money making scam. Neither Return to Ostagar or Warden's Keep take that long to complete. I'm old enough to remember expansions "feeling" like expansions. Awakenings is probably the first expansion that is worth the money -- I don't know. I don't have it. Part of the reason being I don't want to get scammed again. I'm getting a real bad taste in my mouth for DLCs from all game companies and have a hard time supporting them. They seem to be short in nature and add up to a significant amount of money over time. I'd rather pay for a solid expansion that adds hours of additional content than get nickle-and-dimed for mini-content. It just my opinion.

This is my thought on DLC pricing:



Suppose the OC cost $100,000 to make (it cost waaay more, but let’s suppose for purposes of this example.) At 40 hours of game time, it cost the company $2500 to make each gameplay hour.

If the company priced the game at $100, it would have to sell 1000 copies of the game to break even (to say nothing of a profit).  However, if the developers did a good job, the company knows it will sell a lot of copies.  Maybe they predict they can sell 2500 copies, and price the game at $40 because so many people will buy it,  sharing the cost and “discounting” each gameplay hour to $1.

However, DLC is not going to appeal to everyone, and the company knows it.  It’s a good thing, because this allows them to take creative risks with DLC and purposefully address different areas of their audience, hence the many different varieties of DA DLC that we’ve seen so far.  But, because not everyone who bought the OC is going to buy every single DLC, the “value” of DLC in price vs. gameplay time is inherently going to be higher.  Maybe the company expects only 1250 people will buy the DLC and sets a price that places the mass “discount” at $2.50/gameplay hour, rather than $1. 

It's still up to you whether you want to buy the DLC, of course, and play that content versus waiting for the "mass discount" that comes with a longer piece of content and more people who buy.  And yes, the company will obviously expect to make a profit off its products as well; no company sets up a business model where they plan to break even at best.  I'm simply saying that the DLC pricing may not be as far-fetched as you think.


Edited for horrible formatting.

Modifié par silksieve, 28 juillet 2010 - 09:04 .

[ell46]

Yet another DLC I won't be buying, I am just not interested in these stand alone $5 quickies being churned out.  If my old party from DAO aren't coming along then I'm not going either.  Thank heavens for the free mods on Nexus, I'll pass the time with those.

[DA_Joran]

silksieve wrote...

DA_Joran wrote...

I don't know why everyone supports every single DLC that comes out or even gets excited. Someone has to pay for it -- you or your parents. Do a little math and see how much you have spent. Does the amount of extra game time feel like you spent the money wisely? I spent $12 on Warden's Keep and Return to Ostagar. Stone Prisoner was free as a promotional. Without the promo, Stone Prisoner is $15 for a total of $27. Throw in the other DLCs for those that get all of them and you have spent another $12 -- a total of $39 for everything currently available. Awakenings still sells for $39.99. What is my point? It takes anywhere from 50-80 hours to play the base game which sells (or did sell) for $59.99. For $39, the DLC content should add another 15-20 hours of gameplay.
DLCs are a money making scam. Neither Return to Ostagar or Warden's Keep take that long to complete. I'm old enough to remember expansions "feeling" like expansions. Awakenings is probably the first expansion that is worth the money -- I don't know. I don't have it. Part of the reason being I don't want to get scammed again. I'm getting a real bad taste in my mouth for DLCs from all game companies and have a hard time supporting them. They seem to be short in nature and add up to a significant amount of money over time. I'd rather pay for a solid expansion that adds hours of additional content than get nickle-and-dimed for mini-content. It just my opinion.

This is my thought on DLC pricing:



Suppose the OC cost $100,000 to make (it cost waaay more, but let’s suppose for purposes of this example.) At 40 hours of game time, it cost the company $2500 to make each gameplay hour.

If the company priced the game at $100, it would have to sell 1000 copies of the game to break even (to say nothing of a profit).  However, if the developers did a good job, the company knows it will sell a lot of copies.  Maybe they predict they can sell 2500 copies, and price the game at $40 because so many people will buy it,  sharing the cost and “discounting” each gameplay hour to $1.

However, DLC is not going to appeal to everyone, and the company knows it.  It’s a good thing, because this allows them to take creative risks with DLC and purposefully address different areas of their audience, hence the many different varieties of DA DLC that we’ve seen so far.  But, because not everyone who bought the OC is going to buy every single DLC, the “value” of DLC in price vs. gameplay time is inherently going to be higher.  Maybe the company expects only 1250 people will buy the DLC and sets a price that places the mass “discount” at $2.50/gameplay hour, rather than $1. 

It's still up to you whether you want to buy the DLC, of course, and play that content versus waiting for the "mass discount" that comes with a longer piece of content and more people who buy.  And yes, the company will obviously expect to make a profit off its products as well; no company sets up a business model where they plan to break even at best.  I'm simply saying that the DLC pricing may not be as far-fetched as you think.


Edited for horrible formatting.

I don't disagree with any of this.  This game is not the same as games created 20 years ago.  Those games sold for less and weren't as complex to produce.  However, consumers have the right to demand quality products (satisfaction) in exchange for their currency (money).  $59.99 is only $20.99 more than $39.00.  Don't you want the game content (add-on) to reflect that cost?  I do.  An additional hour or two taken up primarily by video and dialouge for $5.00 doesn't cut it. 

After playing Warden's Keep for the first time, I thought, "That's it?"  It ended way too quick.  I wanted more.  Most DLC content make me feel that way.  I guess that is the difference between add-on and expansion.

[silksieve]

DA_Joran wrote...

I don't disagree with any of this.  This game is not the same as games created 20 years ago.  Those games sold for less and weren't as complex to produce.  However, consumers have the right to demand quality products (satisfaction) in exchange for their currency (money).  $59.99 is only $20.99 more than $39.00.  Don't you want the game content (add-on) to reflect that cost?  I do.  An additional hour or two taken up primarily by video and dialouge for $5.00 doesn't cut it. 

After playing Warden's Keep for the first time, I thought, "That's it?"  It ended way too quick.  I wanted more.  Most DLC content make me feel that way.  I guess that is the difference between add-on and expansion.

I don't disagree with you, either.  Maybe it's a preference on gameplay styles?  I was *very* satisfied with Leliana's Song, and was happy to spend $7 to play it for a few hours vs. $12 on a movie, for example.  I really enjoyed what that particular DLC was about, good story and a sort of DA sneaker game.  I recognize that BioWare probably wouldn't get too far making an entire game out of something like that, so I appreciated a shorter DLC dedicated to it.  OTOH, I didn't touch Darkspawn Chronicles, and probably won't get this new DLC because I'm not that great at combat (went through DA on normal), and spending a couple of hours getting my ass kicked doesn't sound too fun.  

I think the pricing goes back to time, as well.  Sure, they could make another expansion with 20+ hours that will cost maybe $30, but we would have to wait for it while the developers invest that time and money.  The quality will be higher and so with gameplay time and so will buyers.  I guess DLC is more for instant gratification, maybe the production difference between a 30 min. sitcom and Transformers 3.  And some of it will work for you and some will not.  No need to buy if it doesn't, and no harm in waiting for longer games.  Hey, I hear one is coming out in March.

[Seryn]

I played it at Comic-con a little bit. Definitely hard, but without the familiarity of my Warden and hot buttons set up the way I like them (and the pressure of others looking over my shoulder!) I'm sure it was harder than it will be when I'm playing on my home turf.

Dan Lazin said one BioWare staff member was able to beat it on Nightmare, so they know it can be done. Don't know if he was exaggerating or not, but beating it on nightmare should be quite a feat.

Modifié par Seryn, 28 juillet 2010 - 11:30 .

[_John Crichton]

Seryn wrote...

I played it at Comic-con a little bit. Definitely hard, but without the familiarity of my Warden and hot buttons set up the way I like them (and the pressure of others looking over my shoulder!) I'm sure it was harder than it will be when I'm playing on my home turf.

Dan Lazin said one BioWare staff member was able to beat it on Nightmare, so they know it can be done. Don't know if he was exaggerating or not, but beating it on nightmare should be quite a feat.

I hear you. I was thinking "I'll step up to bat and show these kids how to swing," but the Warden I used was a mage and he was not spec'd how I would've wanted. I didn't have time to go through and see how the rest of the party was spec'd/geared. So I got crushed. However, I'm sure I would have conquered all if I had my Warden.

[BartusssBP]

There will be Polish version of this DLC or BioWare again dont care about us like in Leliana's Song?

[Y2Kevin]

Since you can import your Warden from either Origins or Awakening, will the enemies scale to the level of the Warden?

[marquiseondore]

John Crichton wrote...

Seryn wrote...

I played it at Comic-con a little bit. Definitely hard, but without the familiarity of my Warden and hot buttons set up the way I like them (and the pressure of others looking over my shoulder!) I'm sure it was harder than it will be when I'm playing on my home turf.

Dan Lazin said one BioWare staff member was able to beat it on Nightmare, so they know it can be done. Don't know if he was exaggerating or not, but beating it on nightmare should be quite a feat.

I hear you. I was thinking "I'll step up to bat and show these kids how to swing," but the Warden I used was a mage and he was not spec'd how I would've wanted. I didn't have time to go through and see how the rest of the party was spec'd/geared. So I got crushed. However, I'm sure I would have conquered all if I had my Warden.

Same thing happened to me.  I've only played a mage a few times, mostly rogue or warrior...I can't wait for 8-10

[Psychoray]

John Crichton wrote...

Seryn wrote...

I played it at Comic-con a little bit. Definitely hard, but without the familiarity of my Warden and hot buttons set up the way I like them (and the pressure of others looking over my shoulder!) I'm sure it was harder than it will be when I'm playing on my home turf.

Dan Lazin said one BioWare staff member was able to beat it on Nightmare, so they know it can be done. Don't know if he was exaggerating or not, but beating it on nightmare should be quite a feat.

I hear you. I was thinking "I'll step up to bat and show these kids how to swing," but the Warden I used was a mage and he was not spec'd how I would've wanted. I didn't have time to go through and see how the rest of the party was spec'd/geared. So I got crushed. However, I'm sure I would have conquered all if I had my Warden.

Did you find any new/interesting items while playing?

Modifié par Psychoray, 29 juillet 2010 - 06:28 .

[Zy-El]

Saibh wrote...

Zy-El wrote...
But it's not a stand-alone DLC.

You can import your Warden from Origins or Awakening.  Your Warden gains xps, levels and gear.  It's an expansion.  The only continuity elements that will be lacking are to do with the personal relationships.  Maybe they'll deal with that in a real Expansion similar to Awakening's size - it would have to be, I'd think.  Who knows?  At the rate they're releasing DLC, we might see something like this in the next couple months . . .

I know it's not. But without your companions, it might as well be just a Warden-suit you're putting on. They could assumably (from what we've heard) put anyone in that position and just give the Warden XP and loot for it and call it a day. To me, that's not enough.

Then you're expecting too much for a $5 DLC.  Do you know how much work and expense it would be to VA every companion you previously had or not have?  Remember, they'd have to account for every combination and permutation of companions that you may or may not have.  There's party banter that has to be created between members who may or may not be there and who may or may not be a love interest. 

For instance, not everybody would have chosen Zevran as an LI or Leliana and yet, a companion DLC would have to include their lines even if the player's save game does not include them.  The player may have chosen to kill Zevran right after his failed assassination attempt or kill Leliana after defiling the Ashes.  That part of the DLC would be wasted - in other words, you'd be paying for the VA and cutscenes that you'll never see for dead companions.  Same applies for many of the other companions - Alistair executed by Anora, Sten dies in Lothering because nobody took him out of the cage, Wynne died with the Circle of Magi, Dog bit it because you never cured him, etc.

I think you're asking for a soap opera.  An RPG will never be as immersive as "real life".  Take DA for what it is - a distraction from real life, not a replacement.

[Saibh]

Zy-El wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Zy-El wrote...
But it's not a stand-alone DLC.

You can import your Warden from Origins or Awakening.  Your Warden gains xps, levels and gear.  It's an expansion.  The only continuity elements that will be lacking are to do with the personal relationships.  Maybe they'll deal with that in a real Expansion similar to Awakening's size - it would have to be, I'd think.  Who knows?  At the rate they're releasing DLC, we might see something like this in the next couple months . . .

I know it's not. But without your companions, it might as well be just a Warden-suit you're putting on. They could assumably (from what we've heard) put anyone in that position and just give the Warden XP and loot for it and call it a day. To me, that's not enough.

Then you're expecting too much for a $5 DLC.  Do you know how much work and expense it would be to VA every companion you previously had or not have?  Remember, they'd have to account for every combination and permutation of companions that you may or may not have.  There's party banter that has to be created between members who may or may not be there and who may or may not be a love interest. 

For instance, not everybody would have chosen Zevran as an LI or Leliana and yet, a companion DLC would have to include their lines even if the player's save game does not include them.  The player may have chosen to kill Zevran right after his failed assassination attempt or kill Leliana after defiling the Ashes.  That part of the DLC would be wasted - in other words, you'd be paying for the VA and cutscenes that you'll never see for dead companions.  Same applies for many of the other companions - Alistair executed by Anora, Sten dies in Lothering because nobody took him out of the cage, Wynne died with the Circle of Magi, Dog bit it because you never cured him, etc.

I think you're asking for a soap opera.  An RPG will never be as immersive as "real life".  Take DA for what it is - a distraction from real life, not a replacement.

Did I say that I insist all story-based DLC be $5? No? That's because I wouldn't expect them to be. I will not, however, buy this. I can promise you more people want a story-based DLC will do better than a dungeon crawler. It's not like I'm saying "Oh, they should include horses and unicorns and centaurs!". I'm saying I'd pay for a story-driven DLC that seems to have something to do with my Warden. What I've seen of this isn't worth it. It appeals to a different crowd. Even in the original announcement for this DLC, the news article commented that combat is not why people play BioWare.

I'm being utterly reasonable about why I'd rather have a story-based DLC, and I'm saying in simple terms that I just won't buy this, and you say I'm "asking for a soap opera"? Sheesh. I think there's defending a game or DLC on certain merits--I do it very often, in fact--and then there's being frank with the facts without raising up in arms any time someone expresses displeasure.

[Zy-El]

Saibh wrote...

Zy-El wrote...
Then you're expecting too much for a $5 DLC.  Do you know how much work and expense it would be to VA every companion you previously had or not have?  Remember, they'd have to account for every combination and permutation of companions that you may or may not have.  There's party banter that has to be created between members who may or may not be there and who may or may not be a love interest. 

For instance, not everybody would have chosen Zevran as an LI or Leliana and yet, a companion DLC would have to include their lines even if the player's save game does not include them.  The player may have chosen to kill Zevran right after his failed assassination attempt or kill Leliana after defiling the Ashes.  That part of the DLC would be wasted - in other words, you'd be paying for the VA and cutscenes that you'll never see for dead companions.  Same applies for many of the other companions - Alistair executed by Anora, Sten dies in Lothering because nobody took him out of the cage, Wynne died with the Circle of Magi, Dog bit it because you never cured him, etc.

I think you're asking for a soap opera.  An RPG will never be as immersive as "real life".  Take DA for what it is - a distraction from real life, not a replacement.

Did I say that I insist all story-based DLC be $5? No? That's because I wouldn't expect them to be. I will not, however, buy this. I can promise you more people want a story-based DLC will do better than a dungeon crawler. It's not like I'm saying "Oh, they should include horses and unicorns and centaurs!". I'm saying I'd pay for a story-driven DLC that seems to have something to do with my Warden. What I've seen of this isn't worth it. It appeals to a different crowd. Even in the original announcement for this DLC, the news article commented that combat is not why people play BioWare.

I'm being utterly reasonable about why I'd rather have a story-based DLC, and I'm saying in simple terms that I just won't buy this, and you say I'm "asking for a soap opera"? Sheesh. I think there's defending a game or DLC on certain merits--I do it very often, in fact--and then there's being frank with the facts without raising up in arms any time someone expresses displeasure.

Chill out. 

I agree with you to some extent; I would prefer a DLC (whatever the cost) to include my love interests and former companions.  I merely pointed out that such an undertaking would be very difficult and expensive on Bioware's part to develop. 

IMO, they've created a monster with too many heads (ie each head being a possible permutation of choices that the player may make).  Obviously, they're forced to make some canon decisions that will contradict what players have chosen on their play-throughs.  The most obvious example of this is where they revoked the ultimate sacrifice in order to allow the same Warden to play in Awakening.  I suspect there will be other compromises as well.  Who knows?  Your love interest may not ever be seen again if they decide a different canon from what you played out. 

Reject DLC if you wish, that is your choice.  I myself have bought all DLC except DC (which did not have any appeal to me; I can't turn on my "friends" like that) - purely for the sadists.  I did consider it at length before deciding not to buy it though rather than just going by my "gut" feelings.

For considering whether or not to buy DLC, I ask two questions:
1 > Does it add to the storyline of the game?
2 > Does it add to my enjoyment of the game?
All DLC except Darkspawn Chronicles answered those questions in the positive.

Modifié par Zy-El, 29 juillet 2010 - 02:56 .

[errant_knight]

I feel better knowing that it has SOME story, and I didn't take into account how glad I'd be to see something done in the old graphic style after spending time on the DA2 board (having seen the trailer). I still think that they should have included at least one companion as an option. If that character is unavailable in any given playthrough, you would always have the option of using a different one.

Modifié par errant_knight, 29 juillet 2010 - 03:57 .

[ell46]

I've been following the discussion above about DLC and $5 and agree on some points, but we aren't talking about another Awakenings here, it is only a cheap DLC that probably runs for about 2 hours like return to Ostagar, Wardens Peak and Shale, so I don't see how it would cost an arm and a leg to continue with that kind of DLC, it wouldn't be any problem to have your DAO PCs to choose who you take along and it doesn't have to take place after killing the AD half the map is still empty there is plenty of room to add on new towns and adventures, which for me would make it worth while starting another play through so DLC as I've mentioned can be in the game and not take place after.

[Zy-El]

For every companion who might be added, they have to re-hire the VA to voice lines that may or may not be used. This increases the size and ergo, the cost of the DLC. And cost does matter. Would you pay $20 for a DLC? Well, if it included the RIGHT companion, I would. How does Bioware know which is the RIGHT companion?

[ell46]

Zy-El wrote...

For every companion who might be added, they have to re-hire the VA to voice lines that may or may not be used. This increases the size and ergo, the cost of the DLC. And cost does matter. Would you pay $20 for a DLC? Well, if it included the RIGHT companion, I would. How does Bioware know which is the RIGHT companion?

Why do they HAVE to add new companions?

[_John Crichton]

Psychoray wrote...



Did you find any new/interesting items while playing?

Unfortunately, no. I'm sure there will be cool loot in the DLC, but I didn't find any. I didn't have much time with it.

[Zy-El]

ell46 wrote...

Zy-El wrote...
For every companion who might be added, they have to re-hire the VA to voice lines that may or may not be used. This increases the size and ergo, the cost of the DLC. And cost does matter. Would you pay $20 for a DLC? Well, if it included the RIGHT companion, I would. How does Bioware know which is the RIGHT companion?

Why do they HAVE to add new companions?

I was responding to the previous post by errant who wanted one of the original companions added to the DLC.  My question was:  which companion do you add?  It might be a companion that the player never chose to hire.  Bioware would have to VA all the companions in order to cover all the possibilities.