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[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

makenzieshepard wrote...

Shwiggliness wrote...

I read it today.

I was disgusted at Cerberus'es treatment of Liselle.

Honestly that whole sequence bothered me more than anything else.  I know Drew was just writing the perspective of morally bankrupt anti-alien (yes anti-alien not pro-human there is a difference) but from the way the constantly described the Asari (lots of woman hating here as well, despite CHud's silly comments.)  If Cerberus just knew when to draw the line there could be a lot more gray area for my paragade and renegon Sheps, who have made morally questionable choices, to navigate.  Instead it's an easy conclusion to write off Cerberus because they are that lovely combination of insane and incompetent.  The only major exceptions to this are Miranda and reviving Shepard.

Havent read retribution, so I have to ask.

What do the Cerberus fanatics say about the asari in the book?

[Nerevar-as]

If you say to Miranda in ME2 you wish Cerberus had come to Shepard earlier, she regrets Cerberus has too many anti-alien zealots and few people like them (actually interested in human advancement). And now Aria is an enemy? Good job. About time to do something about human resouces, TIM.

[Ieldra]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

makenzieshepard wrote...

Shwiggliness wrote...

I read it today.

I was disgusted at Cerberus'es treatment of Liselle.

Honestly that whole sequence bothered me more than anything else.  I know Drew was just writing the perspective of morally bankrupt anti-alien (yes anti-alien not pro-human there is a difference) but from the way the constantly described the Asari (lots of woman hating here as well, despite CHud's silly comments.)  If Cerberus just knew when to draw the line there could be a lot more gray area for my paragade and renegon Sheps, who have made morally questionable choices, to navigate.  Instead it's an easy conclusion to write off Cerberus because they are that lovely combination of insane and incompetent.  The only major exceptions to this are Miranda and reviving Shepard.

Yeah. ME2's version of Cerberus was so much more interesting. But it seems Karpyshyn can't write ambiguous and subtle characters - everything he writes is so heavy-handed there's nothing interesting left where he applied his verbal sledgehammer. Good he never got his hands on Miranda. He'd totally destroy her.

Actually, this portrayal makes a statement in-game have a HECK of a lot more punch to it.  Miranda mentions that Cerberus wants more people like Shepard, who are in it for humanity, NOT just because they're xenophobes.  Then along comes Retribution and shows us exactly what Miranda was talking about, and why it bothers her so much.

Ouch.

You can see it that way....but the situation seems pretty irredeemable when a xenophobe sits at the top. On a positive side, I've always thought it would be a good idea if Miranda took over Cerberus from TIM and reshaped it, made it more like the salarian STG, with still some necessary ruthlessness, but less extreme and with less xenophobia. I still think we might get that chance in ME3.

Apart from that, this doesn't make Karpyshyn's writing better. If it wasn't ME, I wouldn't have touched the second book with tongs after having read the first. And Ascension was worse. If I ever wrote a review, it would be a real scorcher. 

[Dave of Canada]

Lizardviking wrote...

Havent read retribution, so I have to ask.

What do the Cerberus fanatics say about the asari in the book?

Pretty much going around calling them ****s.

[TMA LIVE]

Ieldra2 wrote...

makenzieshepard wrote...
All I can say is I'm kinda rooting against any last minute plot twists that the Reapers really only have good intentions and that they really are protecting us from something bigger.  In the book Grayson is nearly broken by the apparent emotionless actions and cold logical calculations of the Reapers.  I hope all this buisness about 'salvation' is just a smokescreen and really they are just out to destroy us to serve their purposes

That's not a last-minute plot twist. If you know where the Reaper idea was copied from inspired by (Alastair Reynolds' 'Revelation Space' series), you could see it coming right from the first meeting with Tali and Anderson in ME1, where the Reapers were mentioned for the first time, or latest at one of the Normandy meetings after finishing a plot world where Shepard tells Liara the Protheans were eradicated by the Reapers.

Actually, I like this scenario. It's more interesting than "The Reapers destroy organic life because of some misguided ideology". This way, they still need to be stopped, but at least there might be, or might have been, some rational point to what they were doing.

Well, I don't think they have ideology. I just think they're insane, because they're immortal AI warships with no religion, no home, and no purpose beyond what their original creators programmed. They are simply trying to create reasons for their actions, but because they're not a true lifeform, their reasons are insane.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 29 juillet 2010 - 03:44 .

[Ieldra]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

makenzieshepard wrote...
All I can say is I'm kinda rooting against any last minute plot twists that the Reapers really only have good intentions and that they really are protecting us from something bigger.  In the book Grayson is nearly broken by the apparent emotionless actions and cold logical calculations of the Reapers.  I hope all this buisness about 'salvation' is just a smokescreen and really they are just out to destroy us to serve their purposes

That's not a last-minute plot twist. If you know where the Reaper idea was copied from inspired by (Alastair Reynolds' 'Revelation Space' series), you could see it coming right from the first meeting with Tali and Anderson in ME1, where the Reapers were mentioned for the first time, or latest at one of the Normandy meetings after finishing a plot world where Shepard tells Liara the Protheans were eradicated by the Reapers.

Actually, I like this scenario. It's more interesting than "The Reapers destroy organic life because of some misguided ideology". This way, they still need to be stopped, but at least there might be, or might have been, some rational point to what they were doing.

Well, I don't think they have ideology. I just think they're insane, because they're immortal AI warships with no religion, no home, and no purpose beyond what their original creators programmed. They are simply trying to create reasons for their actions, but because they're not a true lifeform, their reasons are insane.

So having no religion and no home constitutes insanity now? And AIs aren't true lifeforms? Is that why you'd actually  *prefer* to destroy them instead of revealing some hidden rationality in their actions and maybe, be able to deal with them in a different way?

As for creating reasons for actions, we humans do that every day. If you knew anything about how decisions are made in the brain, you'd be surprised how many reasons for actions are made up after the fact, and in how many cases the truest answer to "why did you do it?" is "I don't know. I just did it." 

[TMA LIVE]

Ieldra2 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

makenzieshepard wrote...
All I can say is I'm kinda rooting against any last minute plot twists that the Reapers really only have good intentions and that they really are protecting us from something bigger.  In the book Grayson is nearly broken by the apparent emotionless actions and cold logical calculations of the Reapers.  I hope all this buisness about 'salvation' is just a smokescreen and really they are just out to destroy us to serve their purposes

That's not a last-minute plot twist. If you know where the Reaper idea was copied from inspired by (Alastair Reynolds' 'Revelation Space' series), you could see it coming right from the first meeting with Tali and Anderson in ME1, where the Reapers were mentioned for the first time, or latest at one of the Normandy meetings after finishing a plot world where Shepard tells Liara the Protheans were eradicated by the Reapers.

Actually, I like this scenario. It's more interesting than "The Reapers destroy organic life because of some misguided ideology". This way, they still need to be stopped, but at least there might be, or might have been, some rational point to what they were doing.

Well, I don't think they have ideology. I just think they're insane, because they're immortal AI warships with no religion, no home, and no purpose beyond what their original creators programmed. They are simply trying to create reasons for their actions, but because they're not a true lifeform, their reasons are insane.

So having no religion and no home constitutes insanity now? And AIs aren't true lifeforms? Is that why you'd actually  *prefer* to destroy them instead of revealing some hidden rationality in their actions and maybe, be able to deal with them in a different way?

As for creating reasons for actions, we humans do that every day. If you knew anything about how decisions are made in the brain, you'd be surprised how many reasons for actions are made up after the fact, and in how many cases the truest answer to "why did you do it?" is "I don't know. I just did it." 

What I'm trying to say is that because they've been programmed to destory, control, and conquer, they put that into their reasoning. They are doing it because that's what they believe, and it's that way because they were made to be weapons that think. And a weapon by design can only find purpose when used. Thus, they made their purpose their reasoning, because that's how they make sense of things.

And their reasoning is insane, like a crazed cult. Like a gun making a belief on why it shoots thing.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 29 juillet 2010 - 05:36 .

[dreman9999]

Nerevar-as wrote...

If you say to Miranda in ME2 you wish Cerberus had come to Shepard earlier, she regrets Cerberus has too many anti-alien zealots and few people like them (actually interested in human advancement). And now Aria is an enemy? Good job. About time to do something about human resouces, TIM.

Aria is a reluctant ally for Curberus......Well, untill they find out they killed her Daughter in ME3.

[Nerevar-as]

Who says they have no religion? For all we know, becoming Reapers is the very point of it.

[dreman9999]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Havent read retribution, so I have to ask.

What do the Cerberus fanatics say about the asari in the book?

Pretty much going around calling them ****s.

Thing of any anti-female hate speechs and you got it covered.

[TMA LIVE]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Who says they have no religion? For all we know, becoming Reapers is the very point of it.

By religion, I mean more of something that's passed down for you to believe, and not something they made up for themselves to make sense of life. They don't have a parent that taught them one. They simply made their own reasoning that they've continued to build for thousands of years.

[didymos1120]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Havent read retribution, so I have to ask.

What do the Cerberus fanatics say about the asari in the book?

Pretty much going around calling them ****s.

That's fanatic.  Singular.  Not that I think the rest of the ones in TIM's personal staff would necessarily be much better (and actually, the dude in question wasn't on that staff until the very end..maybe. It's a little ambiguous).  Oh, and the word the nanny-filter censored:  w_hores.

[Ieldra]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Who says they have no religion? For all we know, becoming Reapers is the very point of it.

By religion, I mean more of something that's passed down for you to believe, and not something they made up for themselves to make sense of life. They don't have a parent that taught them one. They simply made their own reasoning that they've continued to build for thousands of years.

So believing something just because it's passed down for you to believe is *sane*, and trying to figure things out for yourself is *insane*? Wow, I haven't heard something quite as prejudiced for a long time - did it ever cross your mind that there are better arguments for the exact opposite?

Just stop trying to argue the Reapers are somehow less as a lifeform than humans. That's ideological bullsh*t. They are dangerous, incredibly powerful, intelligent lifeforms hostile to organic life in the galaxy. Nothing more. Nothing less. Insanity depends on the viewpoint, and from their own viewpoint they're just as rational as humans - or irrational, maybe. 

[Inquisitor Recon]

Who cares what their viewpoint is? Won't matter once they're properly destroyed and Shepard is living like a damned king for it.

Modifié par ReconTeam, 29 juillet 2010 - 06:12 .

[TMA LIVE]

Ieldra2 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Who says they have no religion? For all we know, becoming Reapers is the very point of it.

By religion, I mean more of something that's passed down for you to believe, and not something they made up for themselves to make sense of life. They don't have a parent that taught them one. They simply made their own reasoning that they've continued to build for thousands of years.

So believing something just because it's passed down for you to believe is *sane*, and trying to figure things out for yourself is *insane*? Wow, I haven't heard something quite as prejudiced for a long time - did it ever cross your mind that there are better arguments for the exact opposite?

Just stop trying to argue the Reapers are somehow less as a lifeform than humans. That's ideological bullsh*t. They are dangerous, incredibly powerful, intelligent lifeforms hostile to organic life in the galaxy. Nothing more. Nothing less. Insanity depends on the viewpoint, and from their own viewpoint they're just as rational as humans - or irrational, maybe. 

And from the human's viewpoint, they're insane.

Think about it, they made a belief out of repurposing people, which was something they were probably programmed to do as a weapon. And as an AI, they turned it into a belief. From the creator's prospective, they've gone insane. To them, they're sane. And their beliefs weren't not something they found, or were taught, but something they made up. If you made up a nudist cult last week, deep down you know you made it up. Or you made up a belief that a rock was God, because you wanted to fill in a blank. From someone else's prospective, they're insane.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 29 juillet 2010 - 06:39 .

[Asheer_Khan]

Those books are great example how ME 2 could look if Drew K. remain as lead writer.



On the other hand... even revelation comic rises couple questions about TiM's true intention when comes to Shepard's body.



He didn't do absolute nothing to prevent Shepard's body leaving Omega despite fact that there was in off Cerberus operatives on Omega (including Miranda) to stop whole deal between mercs and SB emissary.... heck he even gives Miranda direct order NOT to interfere when Taz leaves Omega with Shepard's body...



His entire behavior made me like o_O when i compare those events to his juicy PR speech how Shepard is important for humanity during first meeting after Lazarus.



But i known one thing... pro cerberus people never accept those books as source of information about TiM...

[TMA LIVE]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Those books are great example how ME 2 could look if Drew K. remain as lead writer.

On the other hand... even revelation comic rises couple questions about TiM's true intention when comes to Shepard's body.

He didn't do absolute nothing to prevent Shepard's body leaving Omega despite fact that there was in off Cerberus operatives on Omega (including Miranda) to stop whole deal between mercs and SB emissary.... heck he even gives Miranda direct order NOT to interfere when Taz leaves Omega with Shepard's body...

His entire behavior made me like o_O when i compare those events to his juicy PR speech how Shepard is important for humanity during first meeting after Lazarus.

But i known one thing... pro cerberus people never accept those books as source of information about TiM...

But they're canon? That's like ignoring bad news, and pretending it didn't happen.

[Ieldra]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Who says they have no religion? For all we know, becoming Reapers is the very point of it.

By religion, I mean more of something that's passed down for you to believe, and not something they made up for themselves to make sense of life. They don't have a parent that taught them one. They simply made their own reasoning that they've continued to build for thousands of years.

So believing something just because it's passed down for you to believe is *sane*, and trying to figure things out for yourself is *insane*? Wow, I haven't heard something quite as prejudiced for a long time - did it ever cross your mind that there are better arguments for the exact opposite?

Just stop trying to argue the Reapers are somehow less as a lifeform than humans. That's ideological bullsh*t. They are dangerous, incredibly powerful, intelligent lifeforms hostile to organic life in the galaxy. Nothing more. Nothing less. Insanity depends on the viewpoint, and from their own viewpoint they're just as rational as humans - or irrational, maybe. 

And from the human's viewpoint, they're insane.

Think about it, they made a belief out of repurposing people, which was something they were probably programmed to do as a weapon. And as an AI, they turned it into a belief. From the creator's prospective, they've gone insane. To them, they're sane. And their beliefs weren't not something they found, or were taught, but something they made up. If you made up a nudist cult last week, deep down you know you made it up. Or you made up a belief that a rock was God, because you wanted to fill in a blank. From someone else's prospective, they're insane.

Well, I'd trust something I make up before something someone tells me any day. For the former, I know at least it's in my interest, while with the latter, it usually benefits that someone before me. And don't quote cults at me for insanity, that's social convention more than anything else. The only check on beliefs is reality, but where ethics are concerned there is no reality to check, so any ethic that ultimately benefits survival of your and everything you need to survive should count as sane. A human ethic benefits the group because we have a history of being unable to survive without the group. A Reaper ethic is different because "every one is a nation".

And, BTW, you don't know the Reapers "made a belief out of repurposing people". The purpose might be real, and benefit their survival. Why should they take the preferences of other life into consideration, with their existing apart from all other life and being powerful enough to swat it. Why are you so determined to paint the Reapers as unworthy of existence? Isn't it enough that they threaten humanity and other organic species you have a connection with? I don't need to paint my enemies immoral, inhuman or insane to fight them. There is no higher purpose to fighting them. They threaten my survival, that's justification enough. And whether I can get them to stop by shooting, reprogramming them or talking doesn't matter in the end except for dramatic purposes.

[TMA LIVE]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Well, I'd trust something I make up before something someone tells me any day. For the former, I know at least it's in my interest, while with the latter, it usually benefits that someone before me. And don't quote cults at me for insanity, that's social convention more than anything else. The only check on beliefs is reality, but where ethics are concerned there is no reality to check, so any ethic that ultimately benefits survival of your and everything you need to survive should count as sane. A human ethic benefits the group because we have a history of being unable to survive without the group. A Reaper ethic is different because "every one is a nation".

And, BTW, you don't know the Reapers "made a belief out of repurposing people". The purpose might be real, and benefit their survival. Why should they take the preferences of other life into consideration, with their existing apart from all other life and being powerful enough to swat it. Why are you so determined to paint the Reapers as unworthy of existence? Isn't it enough that they threaten humanity and other organic species you have a connection with? I don't need to paint my enemies immoral, inhuman or insane to fight them. There is no higher purpose to fighting them. They threaten my survival, that's justification enough. And whether I can get them to stop by shooting, reprogramming them or talking doesn't matter in the end except for dramatic purposes.

Unworthy of existance? I never said that. I didn't even say you can't talk to one. I'm just saying you're talking to something that's insane, and insane because it's beliefs come from being programmed to be a weapon, and not as a lifeform. Also, they've been around for who knows how long. Eternity can make people crazy.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 29 juillet 2010 - 07:05 .

[Annihilator27]

That was a great book. I was hoping that Aria would find out what Kai did to her daughter. The reaper parts were really interesting when they tried to get Dr.Kahlee to understand why they do the cycles.

[DaBigDragon]

I enjoyed this book and the fact that Kahlee is now joining and helping Anderson increases the chances of her showing up in ME3. Especially if Anderson founds out anything useful from Grayson's body and tries to contact Shepard about it.

The only thing that bothered me about this book was the fact that Udina was on the council. What if you chose Anderson to be on the council during the games? I e-mailed Drew Karpyshyn about it. I'm curious to see what his response is. Perhaps Anderson gave it up to Udina during the short time between the ME2 ending and the beginning of this book?

Shepard is off the grid, eh? What could Shepard be doing with his team?

Modifié par DaBigDragon, 29 juillet 2010 - 09:01 .

[Commdor]

Question to those who have read the book (I'm still waiting on my copy to arrive): Is there by any chance a two-year gap between Grayson's capture by Cerberus and his escape?

Reason I ask is I've been made aware of what could be a discrepancy. Apparently, Jon Grissom, the great Alliance hero, dies at age 75 and his funeral reportedly occurs six months before Retribution; since Grissom was born in 2113, he would have died in 2188, right? However, at the beginning of the novel (I've read the free sample), there are statements which place Retribution at three years after Ascension, in 2186 and not 2188.

The only ways I can think of for this to be resolved are either I'm wrong about when Grissom was born or how old he was when he died, or there was a two-year gap I won't know about until I read the book. Anyone have answers?

Modifié par Commdor, 29 juillet 2010 - 09:49 .

[RiouHotaru]

Yeah, the books and comics are completely canon. Everything in them counts towards the storyline. Of course, that won't stop people from claiming you can't use information from them as evidence because "Mass Effect must stand on it's own," as though supplementary material wasn't admissible.

[Maugrim]

Commdor wrote...

Question to those who have read the book (I'm still waiting on my copy to arrive): Is there by any chance a two-year gap between Grayson's capture by Cerberus and his escape?

The book says 'It had been almost three years since he had betrayed Cerberus for the sake of his daughter,'

Hope that helps as I'm not one to examine timelines too closely

[Commdor]

makenzieshepard wrote...

Commdor wrote...

Question to those who have read the book (I'm still waiting on my copy to arrive): Is there by any chance a two-year gap between Grayson's capture by Cerberus and his escape?

The book says 'It had been almost three years since he had betrayed Cerberus for the sake of his daughter,'

Hope that helps as I'm not one to examine timelines too closely

I'm afraid that's just the gap between Ascension and the start of Retribution. I'm talking about a gap within Retribution itself. As it is, the beginning of Retribution is supposed to be 2186 (Ascension was in 2183, two months after the end of ME), and the Alliance hero is supposed to be dead in 2188, yet six months before Retribution happens. The dots aren't connecting.

I wish I had my copy, I'm missing something.