283 réponses à ce sujet

[Vabjekf]

Brainwashing them is really the paragon option?

Its rare that i get totaly frustrated by the options ive seen in ME (the only other one i can think of is the bringing down the sky DLC in ME1, pretty much guarenteeing some other planet gets wiped out in the future doesn't seem a very paragon thing either)

So first of all since paragon/renegade is not supposed to be good/evil lets look at what does define them. The renegade shepard is cold and willing to do anything to ensure the mission is a sucsess, does what is probably the most practical thing, ensuring that he/she comes out on top with considerations for future strengt as well as looking badass.

By brainwashing the heretics the following things are accomplished:

1. Removing their ability to self-determinate and stripping them of their free will.
2. Gambling on a larger geth army to help against the reapers down the road
3. Not caring about the feeling or motivation of the heretics
4. The virus would spread to all heretics eventualy thus totaly effecting every disagreeable geth in the galaxy

By blowing up the station the following things are accomplished.

1. Destroying a staging point of an enemy and dealing a crippling blow to their war waging capability.
2. Not totaly destroying the heretics, after all there are still small groups spread around.

Which sounds more selfish and uncaring? Which sounds more like shepard wanting to simply ensure the largest net gain and the most complete victory over the enemy while simultaniously greedily using the geth as a simple resource, and weapon?

Killing them preserves their dignity and aknowledges that they chose to be the enemy for reasons that were their own. It shows them respect.

Brainwashing them just treats them like a tool. Even shepard says he/she would not brainwash an organic race.

The paragon thing to do is destroying the station. The renegade thing to do is brainwashing them to be on your side. Shepard is a soldier and has fought and killed many people, the idea of a touchy feely 'anything to preserve life' motivation is not realistic. Killing hundreds of people is shepards thing regardless of paragon/renegade. Respecting them however is another matter.

So I say, the choice in this mission is backwards.

[BinaryHelix101]

Do you get paragon/renegade points for these decisions? I always blew up the geth because I thought re-writing them just wasn't right.

[Vabjekf]

You get quite a lot of renegade for blowing up the base, like 30 points or something i think.



Unless i somehow managed to get a lot from just my dialogue with legion prior to the choice.

[SizzlinKola]

They're just machines. IMHO, I can't apply my own morals to synthetics. Legion considers it racist.

[Whereto]

well think about it. None of the choices were right! you either kill them for believing something different or you convert them.

[bottledwater]

i was bored today and recorded an anti-sex speech and put it on you-tube. it was so good that now when anyone sees it they will become very anti-sex. have i taken their free will away? no. it might take 10 years of therapy to make a human think a certain way, but the same can be done to an artificial intelligence in 10 minutes.



also, how is killing the heretics more sensitive to their 'motivations'?

[Spartas Husky]

Geth analogy of heretic rewritting is very interesting.



Before you stop to, "ooo poor heretics" who do they remind you of today?



As a little tip, Legion answered to this statement : "rewritting is unethical I wouldn't think of doing that to any organic species"



Legion "they have chosen a paththat prohibits cooexistence, they will kill you because their so called gods 'order' them to, you cannot negotiate with them, do not falter now"



Heretics, are religious zealots blinded by some false god whose "orders" or "commands" are to eliminate all other life that doesn't agree with their preconception.



Like Samara said, they are a sad figure, but not a sympathetic one. Their minds will be destroyed, geth are software only, by destroying the base you killed them but preserved the resources used on the individual platforms.

[Massadonious1]

I know my hard drive respects me more when I format it.

[Cheese Elemental]

It's not wrong to re-write them. It's like rehabilitation for someone who's been brainwashed by a cult.

[Spartas Husky]

Cheese Elemental wrote...

It's not wrong to re-write them. It's like rehabilitation for someone who's been brainwashed by a cult.

....close but I dont think so, because we are forcing that view on them.

Rehabilitation is for them to accept the views of others, while not always liking it.

The Rewritting forces the views of the original geth onto the heretics.



Now it is true... my pc runs better, acts better, and follows instuctions better, when I format the hardrive... like I did a week ago lol.

Every 30 days, format comes in, and it works  ...

[Cheese Elemental]

Spartas Husky wrote...

Cheese Elemental wrote...

It's not wrong to re-write them. It's like rehabilitation for someone who's been brainwashed by a cult.

....close but I dont think so, because we are forcing that view on them.

Rehabilitation is for them to accept the views of others, while not always liking it.

The Rewritting forces the views of the original geth onto the heretics.



Now it is true... my pc runs better, acts better, and follows instuctions better, when I format the hardrive... like I did a week ago lol.

Every 30 days, format comes in, and it works  ...

It's not forcing a view on them. It's showing them how their view is wrong.

[Spartas Husky]

Cheese Elemental wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...

Cheese Elemental wrote...

It's not wrong to re-write them. It's like rehabilitation for someone who's been brainwashed by a cult.

....close but I dont think so, because we are forcing that view on them.

Rehabilitation is for them to accept the views of others, while not always liking it.

The Rewritting forces the views of the original geth onto the heretics.



Now it is true... my pc runs better, acts better, and follows instuctions better, when I format the hardrive... like I did a week ago lol.

Every 30 days, format comes in, and it works  ...

It's not forcing a view on them. It's showing them how their view is wrong.

Guess we got different views of what "showing the path" is. Still, the " rehabilitated" or "Zombie" geth are goingt o be of good use in the future either way :wizard:

[Vabjekf]

It's not forcing a view on them. It's showing them how their view is wrong.

its forcing. The thing was being developed as a weapon by the heretics to convert all the other geth to their side. So obviously using it against the heretics isnt just 'showing them', its forcing them to the other geths side.

The fact that it is supposed to happen gradualy and convinces them that its actually their own choice doesnt change anything. Thats how brainwashing works, convincingg people they think what you want them to think.

The only reason to use this virus is if you want to use the heretics as a weapon against the reapers. Its bad for the same reason that sarens genophage cure was bad.

The only real justification i could see is that since the heretics developed this weapon using it against them is acceptable. That may be how my paragon shepard rationalizes it away. Still its not really a 'good' reason, its just less of a bad one. Its still wiping out an entire culture.

[CroGamer002]

Wasn't there already same stupid thread long time ago? OK better then necro thread so I'll give you that.

So let's see choices: Kill most of them or rewrite them all so they don't commit genocide again like on Eden Prime, Feros and Citadel and so they can help you with Reapers who committed galaxy genocide every 50 000 year for million years. I'm pretty sure that 2nd choice is Paragon.

[Cheese Elemental]

Vabjekf wrote...

It's not forcing a view on them. It's showing them how their view is wrong.

its forcing. The thing was being developed as a weapon by the heretics to convert all the other geth to their side. So obviously using it against the heretics isnt just 'showing them', its forcing them to the other geths side.

The fact that it is supposed to happen gradualy and convinces them that its actually their own choice doesnt change anything. Thats how brainwashing works, convincingg people they think what you want them to think.

The only reason to use this virus is if you want to use the heretics as a weapon against the reapers. Its bad for the same reason that sarens genophage cure was bad.

The only real justification i could see is that since the heretics developed this weapon using it against them is acceptable. That may be how my paragon shepard rationalizes it away. Still its not really a 'good' reason, its just less of a bad one. Its still wiping out an entire culture.

Legion actually tells you afterwards that they will retreat and rethink their actions. That doesn't mean they're losing their free will, it's just like persuading them that your way is the best way.

[Vabjekf]

Legion actually tells you afterwards that they will retreat and rethink their actions. That doesn't mean they're losing their free will, it's just like persuading them that your way is the best way.

He also explains the virus as something that directly modifies the outcome of processess. So their thinking will be influinced in the direction the virus has pointed them, resuling in their ultimate compliance.

The way it aws explained is that thats exactly how the virus works in the first place, it was designed to cause a gradual shift, effect the sorts of conclusions that are drawn.

Even the way its explained is a joke on an old intel chip flaw that caused certain operations to return an incorect result. Over time these will add up and suddenly the heretics will have a different opinion, not because thats what they think or want but because thats how they were programmed to think.

Just because it does not instantly make them think differently does not mean its not brainwashing them. If anything the fact that its gradual and methodical, the way you have to do with organic populations, as oposed to just changing some setting somewhere in their programming, goes to show that the geth are not just machines but sentient.

[Spartas Husky]

. Potatoes...Potatos

[IanPolaris]

Yeah, it's ultimately forcing a choice, but I think some of you are forgetting what Legion reminds you of during his loyalty mission. The Heretics CHOSE a path that prohibits peaceful coexistance with all other life forms (including the other Geth). By CHOSING such a path, the Heretics forfeit the right to any further moral consideration.



Rewriting the Heretics is a form of self-defense. It's like chemical castration of sex offenders. In effect, you are punishing the Hertics for CHOSING to be anti-social to all other races. When you consider that the alternative is genocide, this is in fact the paragon option.



-Polaris

[Intax]

Not all the correct choices can be one side or the other. It would make even having choices pointless. If you want to play as a complete paragon expect to advocate life for everything, regardless of circumstance.

[IanPolaris]

Intax wrote...

Not all the correct choices can be one side or the other. It would make even having choices pointless. If you want to play as a complete paragon expect to advocate life for everything, regardless of circumstance.

That was sort of my point.  A persistant problem I've seen with Bioware games is there isn't a logical choice.  Paragon choices in BW games are always the best overall in that they get the mission done not onlyh with minimal pain but often the fastest and with the maximum positive effect.

Other than wanting to RP a Jerk or a morally reprehensible person (which some do!), the paragon choices in BW are pretty much always the right ones.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  In this case "life for everything" is not an option.  If you don't destroy the Heretics one way or another, they WILL destroy you because they have chosen a path that prohits coexistance.  If you brainwash them, you permit them to live (albeit altered).  Otherwise you have to commit genocide.  The paragon choice is obvious.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 28 juillet 2010 - 10:44 .

[Vabjekf]

it is genocide either way, the heretics need to be destroyed for everyone elses sake. All that separates a heretic from a regular geth is their point of view.

So the question is what is the best way to destroy them? Letting them keep the dignity of self determinism or brainwashing them into a weapon?

They are 'dead' either way, by brainwashing them you just have a mockery running around. I would think killing them is the nicest way to destroy them, then they die as the organic hating geth instead of dieing later on defending organics from reapers, the exact opposite of what they would want to do.

Am i the only one who can respect an enemies right to make the choice to be my enemy while i shoot them?

Modifié par Vabjekf, 28 juillet 2010 - 01:43 .

[Inverness Moon]

Vabjekf wrote...

it is genocide either way, the heretics need to be destroyed for everyone elses sake. All that separates a heretic from a regular geth is their point of view.

So the question is what is the best way to destroy them? Letting them keep the dignity of self determinism or brainwashing them into a weapon?

They are 'dead' either way, by brainwashing them you just have a mockery running around. I would think killing them is the nicest way to destroy them, then they die as the organic hating geth instead of dieing later on defending organics from reapers, the exact opposite of what they would want to do.

Am i the only one who can respect an enemies right to make the choice to be my enemy while i shoot them?

The geth would not appreciate you applying your morals to them and assuming they agree with your ideas of dignity.

I believe they would tell you the logical thing to do would be to rewrite them so you don't waste potential resources for your fight against the reapers.

[Titanium Man]

I rewrote them because my Shep's opinion was that they were machines, so rewriting code that defines them (something which Legion is not particularly offended about) is fine because they're just machines and should be used by the galaxy towards a peaceful end. So really it's open to interpretation.

[Vabjekf]

Im considering the geth just another kind of alien. You wouldnt brainwash an organic race like that, would you? And i would be inclined to think that the touchy feely good guy shepard would see the geth as an independant race also since they are obviously sapient.

Also consider that the geth are mostly just programs running, there are limited number of physical geth platforms that are inhabited at any given time.

Im not certain its that big a blow to the potential for geth support against the reapers because there are always going to be more 'individuals' than there are platforms for them to control. And im sure they could produce more platforms. They could probably produce more individual processess fairly easily also. So im not certain where the major loss is other than the physical loss of the space station as a potential strategic point.

[Vabjekf]

Titanium Man wrote...

I rewrote them because my Shep's opinion was that they were machines, so rewriting code that defines them (something which Legion is not particularly offended about) is fine because they're just machines and should be used by the galaxy towards a peaceful end. So really it's open to interpretation.

you are just a machine also.

the geth are sapient which makes them every much as alive as you or me.

Legion is about 50/50 on the matter if you talk to him. He doesnt know which is the best option which is why you get to decide and not him.

Obviously 'the geth' as a whole would be stronger if the heretics were re-intigrated. But brainwashing is one of those things that are just considered bad to do. I could get into why, but im pretty sure even people who did not take the time to contemplate that would realize that in general brainwashing ranks up there with bio-weapons and kicking puppies.