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[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

thegreateski wrote...

1. Saren was not breaking the indoctrination. The "upgades" were made so that Soverign would be able to more easily indoctrinate and control Saren in case something went wrong with his plans (Soverign taking over Saren's corpse at the end of ME1).
2. The "implants" in the collectors are there so that Harbinger can "assume control" and give them biotic abilities.
3. Because they have never been able to indoctrinate a sythetic being before and their one attempt at it was unfinished. It took the Geth themselves to finish the virus.
Keep in mind the fact that Soverign has likely been working on the virus since he first encountered the Geth and that Soverign was a being of incredible intellect and could "think" at the speed of light. It failed to finish the virus.

I agree with points 2 and 3, but you are wrong on 1. On Virmire Saren admits to having "doubts" about Sovereign's agenda. He then let Sovereign implant him further.

[Guanxii]

Legion said it best himself: (paraphrasing) you should not seek to apply human concepts of morality, etc to another species because to do so is inherently racist and founded purely on subjective baseless comparisons.

Geth by definition have no concept of morality, compassion, opinion, self, or mortality, etc. They only serve to improve themselves because it's written in their original programming and the 'dyson sphere' structure is the natural evolution of that process. They are programs!

They have no opinions, no personalities or memories, etc to overwrite, just a different set of algorithms that differ from normal geth programming as a leftover from the Quarians which lead them to formulate a different conclusion. I speculate that Heretic Geth programs were either poorly coded, or incomplete before the rebellion.

By rewriting (upgrading) the heretics with Geth 7 rather than Geth Vista they come to a different conclusion as a natural byproduct of better/more complete programming, it is not brainwashing as we would understand it.

It's a paragon choice from Shepard's perspective because HE alone allows them to atone, share their knowledge and experiences and reintegrate into mainstream society In HIS own mind. Non of this has any baring in (Geth) reality.

When shepard chooses to wipe them out, he is committing genocide in his own mind. Again. All of this rationalization is completely irrational and utterly incompatible with the two species.

Both choices are equally valid according to the Geth themselves.

[Thompson family]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

I agree with points 2 and 3, but you are wrong on 1. On Virmire Saren admits to having "doubts" about Sovereign's agenda. He then let Sovereign implant him further.

COAW is right. Saren even says Sovereign sensed the change and put in the implants "to strengthen my resolve." Then Saren writhes in pain when Saren's doubts resurface (Paragon ending). Saren admits Soverign is too strong before killing himself.

[thegreateski]

Thompson family wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

I agree with points 2 and 3, but you are wrong on 1. On Virmire Saren admits to having "doubts" about Sovereign's agenda. He then let Sovereign implant him further.

COAW is right. Saren even says Sovereign sensed the change and put in the implants "to strengthen my resolve." Then Saren writhes in pain when Saren's doubts resurface (Paragon ending). Saren admits Soverign is too strong before killing himself.

Hmm. I was under the impression that indoctrination was absolute and that their was no way to resist.
Never mind. Saren shot himself as a way to resist.

Modifié par thegreateski, 29 juillet 2010 - 06:51 .

[Thompson family]

thegreateski wrote...

Hmm. I was under the impression that indoctrination was absolute and that their was no way to resist.
Never mind. Saren shot himself as a way to resist.

Give yourself more credit, thegreateski. Indoctrination is total — but turns the mind to mush. Sovereign needed Saren to remain loyal and find the conduit, and for that Saren needed some brains left.

Hence, Sovereign put in implants rather than take over completely with indoctrination.

Modifié par Thompson family, 29 juillet 2010 - 06:55 .

[thegreateski]

I guess he wasn't simply doing a "villainous monologue" when he ranted about his intelligence and skill being his saving grace.

[Mallissin]

thegreateski wrote...
1. Saren was not breaking the indoctrination. The "upgades" were made so that Soverign would be able to more easily indoctrinate and control Saren in case something went wrong with his plans (Soverign taking over Saren's corpse at the end of ME1).
2. The "implants" in the collectors are there so that Harbinger can "assume control" and give them biotic abilities.
3. Because they have never been able to indoctrinate a sythetic being before and their one attempt at it was unfinished. It took the Geth themselves to finish the virus.
Keep in mind the fact that Soverign has likely been working on the virus since he first encountered the Geth and that Soverign was a being of incredible intellect and could "think" at the speed of light. It failed to finish the virus.

1. Did you play the first game? Both of the major one-on-one dialogs with Saren showed he was fighting and nearly breaking the indoctrination.
2. The Collectors are clones that lost intelligence from too much exposure to the Reaper indoctrination (as discovered by Mordin). The implants connected them together like the Keepers acting as a hive mind but the biotics were genetic, not from the implants. Biotics can be enhanced with technology but not created by it. We learned this from Kaidan in the first game and to a lesser extent Jack in the second.
3. We only know a few of the previous races to inhabit the galaxy; Protheans, Keepers and the several mentioned in planet descriptions. Over thousands of cycles, there are mostly like hundreds or thousands more races that were wiped out by the Reapers. Some could have been synthetic.

Meanwhile, Legion was able to take the virus off the Reaper quantum data module and alter it using only his limited number of geth units. Seems like it was pretty finished to me, by Sovereign.

You're mixing Legion dialog with Sovereign dialog. Geth "communicate at the speed of light". Besides knowing Reapers are made up of numerous individual consciousness, we have no confirmation that all are synthetic since we know Reapers are partially organic.

[didymos1120]

chapa3 wrote...

"If you destroy the base, you simply destroy the geth in it, when there can be similar outposts to the Heretic Station. You'd have to handle the Geth that are against you, along with the Reapers."

It seems that the Heretic Station was the primary base, and its destruction results in the destruction of nearly all of the heretics.

True enough.  If you pick the right dialogue options with Legion, however, you'll learn that the heretics would be able to rebuild their strength from the remnants.  It may take them years to do so, but there's nothing preventing it (other than tracking them all down and wiping them out).

[didymos1120]

Kroesis- wrote...

thegreateski wrote...
The Geth do not have brains because they're !$%@ing robots.

FYI. What you see as robots are merely vehicles for Geth, Geth are programs, not robots. All the reapers need to do is to introduce a subtle change to their program by way of a virus and they'll flock to believing them gods.

Regardless, that still wouldn't be indoctrination.  Indoctrination is a very specific process that only applies to organics. Quoth the codex (bolding mine):

Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods.

And Legion quite clearly says the heretics chose to accept Sovereign's offer (which likely wasn't one made in good faith, though that's not directly relevant).  So, it doesn't matter what the reapers may or may not be ultimately capable of when it comes to messing with the geth.  The fact remains that Sovereign didn't, and instead gave some tech to the heretics (who freely chose to accept the reapers' terms) that they could eventually make into a weapon for re-writing the true geth.

Modifié par didymos1120, 29 juillet 2010 - 07:21 .

[chapa3]

"True enough. If you pick the right dialogue options with Legion, however, you'll learn that the heretics would be able to rebuild their strength from the remnants. It may take them years to do so, but there's nothing preventing it (other than tracking them all down and wiping them out)."



Given that the station housed millions of platforms, and that it seems only scattered outposts remain, I think centuries would be a more appropiate term then years.

[thegreateski]

1. He didn't break it and as a result shot himself.

2. Biotics are WEAK without implants to assist. A biotic without implants would only be able to . . . say . . . make the water in a glass of water swirl around. Picking up the glass would not be possible.

3. I deal with facts. You deal with ifs, buts, could haves, and maybes.

- It was not finished. You are wrong.

- Reapers are obviously more advanced then Geth. Why the hell would they compute information slower?

[Thompson family]

Given that the station housed millions of platforms, and that it seems only scattered outposts remain, I think centuries would be a more appropiate term then years.

Depends on how much help they get from the Reapers. Even if the Reapers can't give them direct aid before the invasion, they can quickly build up heretic forces once the war's begun.

[didymos1120]

chapa3 wrote...
Given that the station housed millions of platforms, and that it seems only scattered outposts remain, I think centuries would be a more appropiate term then years.

Uh, that's not given.  It housed millions of geth, not platforms (which are the various robot bodies).  Geth are software.  Software can be copied.  You just need someplace to keep the copies, and something to run them on.  Thus, it would take years to regain their strength (i.e., to build another facility (or to build multiple smaller facilities) with comparable amounts of processing power and data storage), but nothing is preventing it.  As I said.

Modifié par didymos1120, 29 juillet 2010 - 07:45 .

[Kroesis-]

thegreateski wrote...

Kroesis- wrote...

thegreateski wrote...
The Geth do not have brains because they're !$%@ing robots.

FYI. What you see as robots are merely vehicles for Geth, Geth are programs, not robots. All the reapers need to do is to introduce a subtle change to their program by way of a virus and they'll flock to believing them gods.

They tried that.

We destroyed the virus.

Soverign was only able to create an unfinished virus. It took the geth themselves to make the completed product.

Was merely pointing out the error of them being robots and a way that something or someone could manipulate the Geth on par with organic indoctrination. Although the virus provided by Nazara was unfinished, I don't see why it would be so difficult for an AI, one that is far more advanced then that of the Geth, to complete it.

[Nightwriter]

Guanxii wrote...

Legion said it best himself: (paraphrasing) you should not seek to apply human concepts of morality, etc to another species because to do so is inherently racist and founded purely on subjective baseless comparisons.

Give me a break. I'm human. I don't know how a caterpillar would see the situation.

I agree with everything else you said. The paragon/renegade system of judgment is confined within Shepard's own mind. It is a reflection of what the choice means to Shepard.

[didymos1120]

Mallissin wrote...
1. Did you play the first game? Both of the major one-on-one dialogs with Saren showed he was fighting and nearly breaking the indoctrination.

*raises hand* Yeah  I did.  I have some questions of my own:  How strong was the indoctrination being used on Saren?  How complete was the process?  Had he suffered any significant neural decay yet? Exactly how close was he to breaking it and how do you know that? Without answers to those questions, his apparent ability to resist doesn't tell us much.  The fact that he still failed does though.

Meanwhile, Legion was able to take the virus off the Reaper quantum data module and alter it using only his limited   number of geth units. Seems like it was pretty finished to me, by Sovereign.

Right.  That's why it took the heretics over two years to add what must have been, if the virus was mostly finished to start with, merely a few finishing touches.  No, the reasonable conclusion (other than it being for plot purposes) is that Legion was able to figure it out  because the work was mostly done by geth, heretics though they may have been.  The biggest obstacle was the fact that it was being kept on a reaper storage device, which technology the true geth weren't familiar with.

And, think about it:  Legion's limited number of units didn't take that long to analyse the unit taken from the derelict reaper, so the fact that it didn't take that long to analyze the heretic virus isn't evidence of anything other than the fact that it apparently doesn't take Legion all that long to analyze stuff.  Plus, the true geth already knew quite a bit about how the virus operated, well before Legion or Shep went anywhere near their station.  Legion tells you all of this in the conversation that gives you that loyalty mission.

Modifié par didymos1120, 29 juillet 2010 - 07:52 .

[chapa3]

"Uh, that's not given. It housed millions of geth, not platforms (which are the various robot bodies). Geth are software. Software can be copied. You just need someplace to keep the copies, and something to run them on. Thus, it would take years to regain their strength (i.e., to build another facility (or to build multiple smaller facilities) with comparable amounts of processing power and data storage), but nothing is preventing it. As I said."



Then explain how, in a news report on the citadel, geth ships have been found derelict with all geth inside dead (after completing legions loyalty mission with the destruction of the station).

[Thompson family]

chapa3 wrote...

Then explain how, in a news report on the citadel, geth ships have been found derelict with all geth inside dead (after completing legions loyalty mission with the destruction of the station).

Interesting.

[edited in later] Legion clearly says the heretics will be accepted back by the Geth after the virus is used. Therefore, it would seem the "reformed" Geth went home -- leaving their platforms behind, at least in some cases?

Modifié par Thompson family, 29 juillet 2010 - 08:08 .

[Raziel0325]

I really think with the "virus" option, we are just "plugging in the overlord" in ME3. Well thats mybe just me.



I really cant see the geth fighting as a whole on our side in ME3, or if that happens, they wont be a reall part of the things we do, maybe in the ending war.

[thegreateski]

Kroesis- wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

Kroesis- wrote...

thegreateski wrote...
The Geth do not have brains because they're !$%@ing robots.

FYI. What you see as robots are merely vehicles for Geth, Geth are programs, not robots. All the reapers need to do is to introduce a subtle change to their program by way of a virus and they'll flock to believing them gods.

They tried that.

We destroyed the virus.

Soverign was only able to create an unfinished virus. It took the geth themselves to make the completed product.

Was merely pointing out the error of them being robots and a way that something or someone could manipulate the Geth on par with organic indoctrination. Although the virus provided by Nazara was unfinished, I don't see why it would be so difficult for an AI, one that is far more advanced then that of the Geth, to complete it.

I'm sure he would have completed it given enough time.

But of course he can't now because he's . . . well . . . dead.

[chapa3]

"[edited in later] Legion clearly says the heretics will be accepted back by the Geth after the virus is used. Therefore, it would seem the "reformed" Geth went home -- leaving their platforms behind, at least in some cases?"



Geth are not inefficient. They do not waste resources.

[Thompson family]

chapa3 wrote...

"[edited in later] Legion clearly says the heretics will be accepted back by the Geth after the virus is used. Therefore, it would seem the "reformed" Geth went home -- leaving their platforms behind, at least in some cases?"

Geth are not inefficient. They do not waste resources.

Wait a minute. Did those news reports on the Citadel follow

1. The destruction of heretic station.
2. The use of the "brainwashing" virus.
3. Either.

Modifié par Thompson family, 29 juillet 2010 - 08:17 .

[chapa3]

The destruction of the station. I never rewrote the geth. I got that news report every time.

[Thompson family]

chapa3 wrote...

The destruction of the station. I never rewrote the geth. I got that news report every time.

I rewrote the Geth every time. I'll load a saved game and go to the Citadel tonight and see if I get different news reports.

[Mallissin]

thegreateski wrote...

1. He didn't break it and as a result shot himself.
2. Biotics are WEAK without implants to assist. A biotic without implants would only be able to . . . say . . . make the water in a glass of water swirl around. Picking up the glass would not be possible.
3. I deal with facts. You deal with ifs, buts, could haves, and maybes.
- It was not finished. You are wrong.
- Reapers are obviously more advanced then Geth. Why the hell would they compute information slower?

1. The act of suicide was him breaking the indoctrination, hence why the scene was so powerful.
2. Asari, Krogan, etc. can all use biotics without implants. (http://masseffect.wi...s#Alien_Biotics)
3. The virus is never mentioned as being "unfinished". Legion mentions when you arrive at the station that the virus is "complete" and your arrival "timely", under the assumption the normal geth had that the virus had not been used yet because it was under development. The virus itself is on a quantum data core from Sovereign. Don't you wonder why that is? And since the Geth communicate at the speed of light (and can transmit at FTL), why hasn't the virus been sent yet or even used on Legion when he enters the core. If they had plans to use it, why would they have waited?

What you think is fact is actually supposition. I suggest you review the dialog.

And I never said anything about the Reapers computing slower than Geth.

Modifié par Mallissin, 29 juillet 2010 - 10:31 .