283 réponses à ce sujet

[tmk]

Thompson family wrote...

tmk wrote...
Well, I do enjoy arguing in general. I'm afraid I will have to take a break after this post though.

No problem. The topic's not going away. I also have to get some work done.

Except threads like this often tend to grow a couple dozen pages while I'm away, and I normally try to read the thread before posting to it... though I deem that irrelevant to the current discussion 

Thompson family wrote...That argument ignores the fundamental fact that Shepard's prior experience is the core reason Legion leaves the decision on Heretic Station to Shep.

This may not be an exact quote, but it's close, from Legion:

"Shepard-Commander, you have fought the heretics. You have fought the old machines. You have a perspective that we lack."

You cannot logically dismiss Shepard's experience as irrelevant when that is the very reason Legion defaults to Shep's judgement and makes him the arbiter of the Heretic Geth's future, a decision that will affect the future of all Geth.

Which always seemed silly to me because Shepard lacks hell of a lot more perspective on this than Legion. Legion seems to have pretty thorough knowledge of Shepard's experiences fighting Saren and Sovereign. The only insight Shepard may have into heretics is where to shoot them to disable them faster, not how they think or what effect the virus would have on them. To be honest, it seems to me that it's only a player choice because it lets you choose to help quarians retake their homeworld, and paragon/renegade points you get for this are just color-coding the choices for player's convenience. Of course my metagaming logic doesn't help at all to explain it in-character.

Thompson family wrote...
The "Paragon/Renegade" "value" of the decision must be weighed with consideration of the backstory in mind. It is not situational ethics to realize that the Reapers are playing the heretics for fools. Killing the Heretics for acting logically — but based on a premise that is not only wholly false  but also the product of deliberate deception — is not, to my mind, in any way a Paragon action.

To many, the mind is sacred. I understand and respect that. When a choice has to be made, however, I prefer the option that doesn't kill the heretics because they were fooled.

Well, so do I. But we don't really know how the virus works or how geth consciousness works, so one could argue it's more humane to just kill them rather than mess with their brains... to which really there's no counterargument because the geth are pretty much postulated to be sentient machines, and trying to apply logic to this oxymoron is counterproductive.

Mallissin wrote...
Meanwhile, Legion was able to take the virus off the Reaper quantum data module and alter it using only his limited number of geth units. Seems like it was pretty finished to me, by Sovereign.

My impression was that Legion recovered the finished virus from heretics' own database ("he" didn't know it was complete until aboard the station).

Modifié par tmk, 29 juillet 2010 - 10:58 .

[Geth001]

tmk wrote...

Well, so do I. But we don't really know how the virus works or how geth consciousness works, so one could argue it's more humane to just kill them rather than mess with their brains... to which really there's no counterargument because the geth are pretty much postulated to be sentient machines, and trying to apply logic to this oxymoron is counterproductive.

(1) Sentient machine isn't an oxymoron
(2) Sentient machines in the ME universe run on logic, so they'd probably be offended that you can't apply logic to them. (Well, if they grew some emotions they would.)
(3) Legion explains how the virus works, it creates a rounding error in a specific subroutine, and the rewire corrects it.

From the way Legion explained it, to me it sounded like the heretics were indoctrinated, just with a computer virus instead of a mind control field... thing. I see rewriting them as reversing indoctrination, which seems pretty paragon to me.

Modifié par Geth001, 29 juillet 2010 - 11:34 .

[tmk]

Geth001 wrote...
(1) Sentient machine isn't an oxymoron
(2) Sentient machines in the ME universe run on logic, so they'd probably be offended that you can't apply logic to them. (Well, if they grew some emotions they would.)

Sentient (as opposed to sapient) means having feelings and emotions and not just "running on logic". It's a popular theme with roots in classic science fiction, but I still find it rather silly personally.

Geth001 wrote...
(3) Legion explains how the virus works, it creates a rounding error in a specific subroutine, and the rewire corrects it.

From the way Legion explained it, to me it sounded like the heretics were indoctrinated, just with a computer virus instead of a mind control field... thing. I see rewriting them as reversing indoctrination, which seems pretty paragon to me.

Except there's no direct indication of that, and it's possible you are applying the logic-altering virus onto the perfectly valid runtimes. Legion admits there is a probability of error (if you choose the "destroy" option).

[Thompson family]

That argument ignores the fundamental fact that Shepard's prior experience is the core reason Legion leaves the decision on Heretic Station to Shep ...

Which always seemed silly to me because Shepard lacks hell of a lot more perspective on this than Legion.

That's simply not the case. Shepard knows the heretics core beliefs are not only false but based on deception. Legion was right to defer to Shep because Shep really did have "a perspective that we lack."

To many, the mind is sacred. I understand and respect that. When a choice has to be made, however, I prefer the option that doesn't kill the heretics because they were fooled.

Well, so do I. But we don't really know how the virus works or how geth consciousness works, so one could argue it's more humane to just kill them rather than mess with their brains...

I simply cannot agree with that. It's not like I'm making the heretics husks or mutating them into Collectors.

[tmk]

Thompson family wrote...

Which always seemed silly to me because Shepard lacks hell of a lot more perspective on this than Legion.

That's simply not the case. Shepard knows the heretics core beliefs are not only false but based on deception. Legion was right to defer to Shep because Shep really did have "a perspective that we lack."

Legion studied Shepard's records. He knows what Sovereign told Shepard on Virmire. Chances are he already knows what Saren said as well.

Thompson family wrote...

Well, so do I. But we don't really know how the virus works or how geth consciousness works, so one could argue it's more humane to just kill them rather than mess with their brains...

I simply cannot agree with that. It's not like I'm making the heretics husks or mutating them into Collectors.

One could argue that rewriting them is exactly like what Reapers did to Collectors (removing their natural thought capability and replacing it with what they needed). I won't argue though, because the game doesn't really explain what the effect is exactly, so it's up to you to decide how you believe it happened.

[Mallissin]

tmk wrote...

Mallissin wrote...
Meanwhile, Legion was able to take the virus off the Reaper quantum data module and alter it using only his limited number of geth units. Seems like it was pretty finished to me, by Sovereign.

My impression was that Legion recovered the finished virus from heretics' own database ("he" didn't know it was complete until aboard the station).

Yah, after the assault, he alters it on the Reaper quantum data core and sets it up to be released into the geth mainframe. All in under a few seconds.

[Thompson family]

According to news reports at the Citadel, if you rewrite the Geth, they go on the move, collecting in systems for "either a migration or an attack." The Council fleets monitor the movements.



Sounds like they're going home.

[Lotto]

wow you care a lot...

[chapa3]

And as I said, if you combust the station, the reports state that geth ships have been found derelict and adrift, with all geth onboard dead.

[Thompson family]

Lotto wrote...

wow you care a lot...

Yes I do.

Sovereign duped the heretics, so I doubt the Reaper shared a whole lot of Reaper tech and secrets with them -- but I could be wrong. Once the reformed heretics rejoin the true Geth, we'll see what info they can provide.

I want Shepard to get whatever information the reformed heretics can give. He can't get it if all the heretics are dead.

At least the Geth know one thing: The Reapers are real. They've met one and communicated with it. It lead a faction of Geth away from the rest. There's not going to be some Geth council giving my Shepard finger quotes.

That's the least I want my Shep to accomplish here. I'm hoping for a lot more.

You can't fight a war with the Reapers very effectively if you're constantly wondering when the Geth will stab you in the back -- particularly once you learn the Geth are several times more powerful than you thought. Well, the Geth can't stab you in the back if they're out in front fighitng with Shepard.

The Geth are also key to getting the Quarians in this fight. As the old warhorse on the Admiralty board said, if there's going to be a war then the Quarians need a homeworld to shelter their non-combatants. The Geth have one -- the Quarian homeworld. There might have to some sort of massive hostage exchange to make this work, but we'll see.

One fear I have though is that the Council will start thinking of Shepard as Saren 2 -- already working for Cerberus, now in talks with the Geth. Those fools would just as likely as not send a new Spectre to hunt Shep down -- in the worst case for my Shep, Kaiden Alenko.

Modifié par Thompson family, 30 juillet 2010 - 06:07 .

[KingofMyself]

It was a hard decision. Until I remembered that the heretic's whole ideology was based off of a Reaper virus to begin with. Then I saw it less about brainwashing and more about fixing the damage - blowing up after that knowledge means you're just looking out to obliterate all Geth in the end.

[Spartas Husky]

Thompson family wrote...
According to news reports at the
Citadel, if you rewrite the Geth, they go on the move, collecting in
systems for "either a migration or an attack." The Council fleets
monitor the movements.

Sounds like they're going home.

chapa3 wrote...

And as I said, if you combust the station, the reports state that geth ships have been found derelict and adrift, with all geth onboard dead.

wait when do you hear them reports. I been to the citadel after "house divided" quest, and never heard reports about the geth..., is it in the citadel, omega or illium?

[chapa3]

Citadel, keep clicking on the screen, (galactic news), surfing through them, and they will pop up.



Tuchanka and Illium have galactic news sets too if it is more convenient.

[Spartas Husky]

hmmm, gota check that out , thanks.

[IanPolaris]

Thompson family wrote...
One fear I have though is that the Council will start thinking of Shepard as Saren 2 -- already working for Cerberus, now in talks with the Geth. Those fools would just as likely as not send a new Spectre to hunt Shep down -- in the worst case for my Shep, Kaiden Alenko.

If you are playing the full-paragon Shepard, I can't see that happening.  First of all, Shepard is a Spectre and the council specifically reinstated his position to deal with the collectors.  The same dynamic that made it almost impossible for the council to defrock Saren now applies to Shepard.

Second of all, Paragon Shepard has way too many people in high positions with the council races that owe him far too much.  There's Anderson of course (and even Udina would not care for the precedent of defrocking the first human spectre especially after saving humanity from the collectors), there is also Samara who is an Asari Matriarch as well as a Justicar....so I don't think the Asari will be eager to defrock Shepard.  Then there is Dr Solus and Capt Kirrahe of the SSTG (and from what I gather both are extremely important people within Salarian society and politics).

Finally let's not forget that Paragon Shepard is almost univerally regarded as a famous icon, the prototypical "Spectre's Spectre....the one that sets the mold for future spectres".  Even the Turians regard him as such (look at the reaction of the Gun Shop owner on level 28 of Zakera ward and consider that ALL the mechants fall over themselves asking for Shepard's endorsement (including said Turian).

The Council is made of politicians and there is no way that politicians will do anything that inhibits their own popularity or political survival.....and firing Shepard especially after destroying the Collector base and giving the big middle finger to Cerebus isn't politically smart.

-Polaris

[Kroesis-]

thegreateski wrote...
I'm sure he would have completed it given enough time.

But of course he can't now because he's . . . well . . . dead.

Well, yes. The point is though that other reapers could attempt exactly the same thing. While it isn't indoctrination in the organic sense of the word it'd have a somewhat similar outcome. Possibly with a little more difficulty if the rest of the Geth (destroy option) or the returned Geth (re-write option) don't see them as 'god(s)'  and aren't willing to allow them access to their processes.   

[Rivercurse]

Ethically/morally, this choice was the hardest I've ever had to make in either Mass Effect game.



I don't think there's a right or wrong answer as regards which is Paragon and which is renegade; they're both pretty renegade in my book.

[scotchtape622]

Why it is Renegade to destroy them:



Renegade Shepard wants the Quarians to go to war with the Geth. If he wants them to go to war, then rewriting the Heretics to become true Geth would be idiotic (funnily enough, that is what I'm going to do on the playthrough I am working on )

[Thompson family]

IanPolaris wrote...

Thompson family wrote...
One fear I have though is that the Council will start thinking of Shepard as Saren 2  [and sending] a new Spectre to hunt Shep down.

If you are playing the full-paragon Shepard, I can't see that happening.  [etc.]

You make some good points, Polaris. I hope you're right.

Modifié par Thompson family, 30 juillet 2010 - 09:46 .

[thegreateski]

I kind of hope they do. We have yet to see any other Specters except for Nihlus and Saren.



You would think these people would have their own private club or something.

[scotchtape622]

I kinda hope Kaiden/Ash become that Spectre. That would be an awesome confrontation.

[Khirzask]

It's almost like performing Inception on the heretics.

Hmm... Inception... traveling inside the "dreams" of millions of geth... have to get out alive...now that could be a really cool DLC!

[Inverness Moon]

Geth don't dream.



As for geth ships being disabled if you destroy the station. Maybe they're going into hiding or something and left their bodies behind since its easier to trace ships than it is to trace FTL communications?



I really don't have a clue. =D

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I don't think Saren was considered a traitor for talking to the Geth so much as using them to attack a human colony. Even if Shepard establishes ties to the Geth, or even Cerberus, he hasn't led them in an attack on a Council world or anything so he isn't quite in the same boat as the previous antagonist.

[thegreateski]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I don't think Saren was considered a traitor for talking to the Geth so much as using them to attack a human colony. Even if Shepard establishes ties to the Geth, or even Cerberus, he hasn't led them in an attack on a Council world or anything so he isn't quite in the same boat as the previous antagonist.

Jacob: "We can't count on everybody seeing things the same way as me."