283 réponses à ce sujet

[Kaiser Shepard]

"They started a war but we're not here to finish it, we're here to make them regret."



Also, there's the fact that the Heretics re-integrating with the main geth faction might cause further complications.

[Inverness Moon]

Vabjekf wrote...

You wouldnt brainwash an organic race like that, would you?

Legion specifically says that you should not be applying your own morals to the geth.

[CroGamer002]

Inverness Moon wrote...
Legion specifically says that you should not be applying your own morals to the geth.

This.

Modifié par Mesina2, 28 juillet 2010 - 03:10 .

[The Unfallen]

There is no right or wrong. No good or evil. Only perspective. Here in America, if you barbecue your dog, and eat it, people will probably think you're insane. If you do so in China, they'll probably join you and compliment your cooking. In my honest opinion, the Heretic Geth are delusional, insane, out of their mind. They're fanatical, like the Crusaders. They will kill in the name of their gods. If the virus wasn't applied, they would eventually endanger all organic life. Now, initiating the virus 'rewrites them', makes them pure Geth again. They aren't being converted, they're being reverted. Back to their old selves before the Reaper influence. Legion says they split their ties from the majority of the true Geth.



The Heretics are not true Geth. Thus they are not being brainwashed. They were already Brainwashed by the Reapers. In a way you are saving them. If you wipe them out, you were no different than Saren, who is willing to kill to get his way.

[Vabjekf]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Vabjekf wrote...

You wouldnt brainwash an organic race like that, would you?

Legion specifically says that you should not be applying your own morals to the geth.

Thats not really morals, thats more like ethics 

And post above brings up a good point about the potential problems of reintigration. We may end up having nothing but a bunch of organic-hating geth now. Maybe the heretics are right in their thinking and the somewhat peaceful normal geth are the flaws, and even with the specific reasoning that made the current heretics heretics, alternative conclusions will result in every geth going heretical as an outcome.

That alone is reason enough that the choice should be more neutral rather than paragon/renegade.

I cant help but feel that the morality choice was forced simply upon the principal that "stuff blew up, thats renegade right?"

That Yellow Bastard wrote...

The crusades
preserved a lot of knowledge and culture by moving it up to europe. (wars and soldiers adopting local customs has been a major way that human cultures mix over history, they are rarly ever bad things) The
middle east was already declining under its own conflicts and issues.

Modifié par Vabjekf, 28 juillet 2010 - 03:17 .

[The Unfallen]

But think about it. If they are rewritten, they will be peaceful, "happy" even. Now, so what if they are rewritten, uploading the virus is the peaceful path, destroying the base is the war-driven path. Paragon Shepard tries to find peaceful alternatives and routes to situations, Renegade Shepard generally goes down the fight path. I think you're confusing Renegade and Paragon with Good and Evil. Renegade does not necessarily mean Evil.

[Solenai]

Vabjekf wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Vabjekf wrote...

You wouldnt brainwash an organic race like that, would you?

Legion specifically says that you should not be applying your own morals to the geth.

Thats not really morals, thats more like ethics 

And post above brings up a good point about the potential problems of reintigration. We may end up having nothing but a bunch of organic-hating geth now. Maybe the heretics are right in their thinking and the somewhat peaceful normal geth are the flaws, and even with the specific reasoning that made the current heretics heretics, alternative conclusions will result in every geth going heretical as an outcome.

That alone is reason enough that the choice should be more neutral rather than paragon/renegade.

I cant help but feel that the morality choice was forced simply upon the principal that "stuff blew up, thats renegade right?"

If blowing stuff up was renegade, then saving the collector base would have been the paragon choice.

[The Unfallen]

Solenai wrote...

Vabjekf wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Vabjekf wrote...

You wouldnt brainwash an organic race like that, would you?

Legion specifically says that you should not be applying your own morals to the geth.

Thats not really morals, thats more like ethics 

And post above brings up a good point about the potential problems of reintigration. We may end up having nothing but a bunch of organic-hating geth now. Maybe the heretics are right in their thinking and the somewhat peaceful normal geth are the flaws, and even with the specific reasoning that made the current heretics heretics, alternative conclusions will result in every geth going heretical as an outcome.

That alone is reason enough that the choice should be more neutral rather than paragon/renegade.

I cant help but feel that the morality choice was forced simply upon the principal that "stuff blew up, thats renegade right?"

If blowing stuff up was renegade, then saving the collector base would have been the paragon choice.

Another fair point.

[Vabjekf]

That Yellow Bastard wrote...

But think about it. If they are rewritten, they will be peaceful, "happy" even. Now, so what if they are rewritten, uploading the virus is the peaceful path, destroying the base is the war-driven path. Paragon Shepard tries to find peaceful alternatives and routes to situations, Renegade Shepard generally goes down the fight path. I think you're confusing Renegade and Paragon with Good and Evil. Renegade does not necessarily mean Evil.

Thats like saying medicating everyone into zombies so they can walk around in bliss is the answer to all social conflict.

In general paragon shepard tries to be 'nice'. Whereas renegade shepard is a little more cold and calculating.

I still see turning a bunch of enemies into allies with a virus as more in line with renegade shepards 'the mission above all' standpoint, "screw what they think i can use them if i do this".

Now, ultra-paragon shepard with a million points in paragon could turn them into allies with some crazy speech, but the bar is capped before a million points ~_^

Modifié par Vabjekf, 28 juillet 2010 - 03:25 .

[The Unfallen]

Vabjekf wrote...

That Yellow Bastard wrote...

But think about it. If they are rewritten, they will be peaceful, "happy" even. Now, so what if they are rewritten, uploading the virus is the peaceful path, destroying the base is the war-driven path. Paragon Shepard tries to find peaceful alternatives and routes to situations, Renegade Shepard generally goes down the fight path. I think you're confusing Renegade and Paragon with Good and Evil. Renegade does not necessarily mean Evil.

Thats like saying medicating everyone into zombies so they can walk around in bliss is the answer to all social conflict.

In general paragon shepard tries to be 'nice'. Whereas renegade shepard is a little more cold and calculating.

I still see turning a bunch of enemies into allies with a virus as more in line with renegade shepards 'the mission above all' standpoint, "screw what they think i can use them if i do this".

Now, ultra-paragon shepard with a million points in paragon could turn them into allies with some crazy speech, but the bar is capped before a million points ~_^

No two species are identical. All must be judged on their own merits.
Treating every species like one's own is racist. Even benign
anthromorphism. -Legion

[CroGamer002]

Seriously why do you think killing them is Paragon?

[Solenai]

For what my opinion is worth on the internet, I personally think it's better to rewrite the heretics than destroy the station.

First off, as said countless times: it improves the possibility of geth assisstance in the reaper invasion.

Second, if you do destroy the station, that still leaves pockets of heretic geth in the galaxy, there is a chance that the reapers could summon the leftover heretics to gather in one final attack to catch the alliance/council races offguard, possibly resulting the destruction of multiple ships, personel, and resources that are needed to fight the reapers and possibly opening up another front in the war.

Third, the geth do not have emotions. After you release the virus, the heretics do not have a problem with having been rewritten. They accept the judgment of the true geth and will integrate their experience and knowledge into the geth collective. Everybody wins. Some of you may think of this as 'brainwashing' but the geth are just software. When a computer that runs Windows Vista starts acting up, you don't insert a grenade into the disk drive, you install Windows 7 on it and call it a day (rewriting). Not the best comparison, I know, but that's the best I can come up with.

Modifié par Solenai, 28 juillet 2010 - 03:36 .

[Vabjekf]

That Yellow Bastard wrote...
No two species are identical. All must be judged on their own merits.
Treating every species like one's own is racist. Even benign
anthromorphism. -Legion

I dont really see how this applies. It would apply if we were getting into the sorts of reasoning and judgements the heretics used to come to their conclision, comparing them to our cultural and social standards, but simply saying that they have the right to think for themselves is kind of stretching it.

I suppose you could say that that notion itself is just a moral standard, but it seems to me that the most basic thing that defines sentient life is.. sentience. So going against sentience is going against sentient life. Thats even worse than the reapers and the heretic geth, they only go against organic sentient life

[CroGamer002]

Solenai wrote...

Third, the geth do not have emotions. After you release the virus, the heretics do not have a problem with having been rewritten. They accept the judgment of the true geth and will integrate their experience and knowledge into the geth collective. Everybody wins. Some of you may think of this as 'brainwashing' but the geth are just software. When a computer that runs Windows Vista starts acting up, you don't insert a grenade into the disk drive, you install Windows 7 on it and call it a day (rewriting). Not the best comparison, I know, but that's the best I can come up with.

:D:D:D:D:D

[Skilled Seeker]

Massadonious1 wrote...

I know my hard drive respects me more when I format it.

Win! Destroying your hard drive doesn't get you good results from it any longer. So IMO the paragon and renegade choices are correct here and as a mostly renegade person I always go for destroying them to weaken the Geth as a whole. Brainwashing them would strenghen the Geth which isn't a good thing even if you want to be their friends. They are AI in the end and hence unpredictable without any emotions and morals like organics.

[Vabjekf]

Mesina2 wrote...

Seriously why do you think killing them is Paragon?

Because then you are just killing an enemy, blowing up the physical manifestation (the weapons, geth platforms, combatants, and materials used by the enemy) of an idea that is disagreeable/dangerous to you. Its straight up and clean.

Using the virus however is the same thing as soverigns indoctrination, or those geth dragons teeth. You are denying them self-determination. And legion himself says that the geth value this. So that is 'geth values'

Also the geth obviously have emotions because legion obviously has a crush on shepard, what with the n7 armor and all that

Modifié par Vabjekf, 28 juillet 2010 - 03:50 .

[Terraneaux]

I think the 'Paragon' option should have been to destroy them. The way Legion talks, one of the most important beliefs that the Geth hold is that they have to figure things out on their own, they don't want their hands held through technological or societal development (that's why they split with the Heretics in the first place). Brainwashing them back into the collective would be defeating the entire point of having the collective in the first place.



From a Renegade's perspective it's more Geth who are more likely to be inclined to help out against the Reapers and in general be better predisposed towards organics, so brainwashing makes sense, their foibles be damned.

[Kaiser Shepard]

I agree with Vabjekf's reasoning, but even if I didn't Legion's "We cannot predict what the effects will be."  would be enough of a dealbreaker for me. Also, from a metagaming perspective, that sentence obviously foreshadows possible future events.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 28 juillet 2010 - 03:58 .

[CroGamer002]

Vabjekf wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Seriously why do you think killing them is Paragon?

Because then you are just killing an enemy, blowing up the physical manifestation (the weapons, geth platforms, combatants, and materials used by the enemy) of an idea that is disagreeable/dangerous to you. Its straight up and clean.

-no comment-

[rekn2]

so wait, youre arguing that returning some geth back to their original state instead of killing them (you 've killed all other indoctrinated people) should be renegade?





hello? this is the first time in ME history that you've been able to unindoc a species!



when you unleash the virus youre returning them to their original state,BEFORE SOV took over their minds!

[Kaiser Shepard]

rekn2 wrote...

so wait, youre arguing that returning some geth back to their original state instead of killing them (you 've killed all other indoctrinated people) should be renegade?


hello? this is the first time in ME history that you've been able to unindoc a species!

when you unleash the virus youre returning them to their original state,BEFORE SOV took over their minds!

They weren't indoctrinated to begin with: they willingly sided themselves with Sovereign - Nazara if you will - and thus chose their own path (which ironically wasn't their own).

[Vabjekf]

rekn2 wrote...

so wait, youre arguing that returning some geth back to their original state instead of killing them (you 've killed all other indoctrinated people) should be renegade?


hello? this is the first time in ME history that you've been able to unindoc a species!

when you unleash the virus youre returning them to their original state,BEFORE SOV took over their minds!

The heretics are not indoctrinated. They went to soverign first, they already had their opinions (according to legion anyway, i suppose he could be part of another one of those galaxy wide conspiracies to trick commander shepard that the citadel councel seems to think are everywhere=p)

What using the virus does is modify their processing to force them to come to conclusions they would not naturally come to, influcing their reasoning, untill you have convinced them that what you want them to think is what they think.

THAT is exactly like indoctrination

[IanPolaris]

Look, it's real simple. Once the heretics willingly CHOSE a path that prevented them from coexisting from anyone else, they forfeited all moral consideration for "their" state and all consideration for "their" feelings.



The choice is a simple one: Genocide which you can not take back OR



Rewrite which actually preserves the Heretics and gives them another chance (think of it as involuntary rehabilitation).



Destroying them is the simple and EASY path, but it's also clearly the renegade one because you are destroying an entire people out of fear.



By rewriting them, you take on a small risk, but you solve the problem AND preserve both factions of the Geth (at least their knowledge). That makes it the clear Paragon option.



-Polaris



P.S. Yes, I'd feel exactly the same way if they were organics. If an organic species (read Baatarians) deliberately and willfully chooses a path that precludes peaceful coexistance then I have not only the right but obligation to solve that....by force if necessary INCLUDING brainwashing.

[IanPolaris]

Vabjekf wrote...

rekn2 wrote...

so wait, youre arguing that returning some geth back to their original state instead of killing them (you 've killed all other indoctrinated people) should be renegade?


hello? this is the first time in ME history that you've been able to unindoc a species!

when you unleash the virus youre returning them to their original state,BEFORE SOV took over their minds!

The heretics are not indoctrinated. They went to soverign first, they already had their opinions (according to legion anyway, i suppose he could be part of another one of those galaxy wide conspiracies to trick commander shepard that the citadel councel seems to think are everywhere=p)

What using the virus does is modify their processing to force them to come to conclusions they would not naturally come to, influcing their reasoning, untill you have convinced them that what you want them to think is what they think.

THAT is exactly like indoctrination

Yes and so what?  The Heretics by their own free will turned themselves into a criminal race unable to coexist with others.  As such they forfeited all consideration of themselves.  I have zero sympathy for the heretics.  You bet I rewrite them!

-Polaris

[Vabjekf]

So basically, people who disagree with you have no right to an opinion?



The heretics are willing to fight for their idea, which means they have the right to hold it. Its a pretty self-destructive idea in the long run since as you point it it pretty much sets them against everyone else. So they will probably fail (particularaly after you blow up their space station ). Thats nature at work! Life is a series of conflicts, the winner was right.