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[Thompson family]

Think of it this way: Somebody holds a gun to your head and asks "Would you rather die or go along with my point of view?" I submit that, if given the choice, most Geth would reach a consensus that choosing to live is better than dying for their ideals.



I see Shepard's biggest goal is to get a Geth/Quarian ceasefire worked out and to get the Geth to come in on the anti-Reaper side. Geth and the Rachni ("soured the songs of our mothers") are the only major space-faring species who KNOW the Reapers are real, and the Geth have direct knowledge and contact. They've met one and heard Soverign's offer. Most of them didn't buy it.



If there's any species out their that has proof of the existence of the Reapers before the Reapers arrive, it's the Geth.



The more Geth Shepard can bring to the final fight, the better. Also, while blowing up the station would be a crippling blow to the heretics, it would not be fatal. Blowing up the station still leaves some as a distraction. Using the virus makes your side stronger and weakens the real enemy.

[scotchtape622]

I blew them up because I promised Tali I'd help her take back the homeworld, and if no peaceful resolution can be made, then the less Geth the better.

[TheBull]

Thompson family wrote...

Think of it this way: Somebody holds a gun to your head and asks "Would you rather die or go along with my point of view?" I submit that, if given the choice, most Geth would reach a consensus that choosing to live is better than dying for their ideals.

I see Shepard's biggest goal is to get a Geth/Quarian ceasefire worked out and to get the Geth to come in on the anti-Reaper side. Geth and the Rachni ("soured the songs of our mothers") are the only major space-faring species who KNOW the Reapers are real, and the Geth have direct knowledge and contact. They've met one and heard Soverign's offer. Most of them didn't buy it.

If there's any species out their that has proof of the existence of the Reapers before the Reapers arrive, it's the Geth.

The more Geth Shepard can bring to the final fight, the better. Also, while blowing up the station would be a crippling blow to the heretics, it would not be fatal. Blowing up the station still leaves some as a distraction. Using the virus makes your side stronger and weakens the real enemy.

That was (atleast for me) the hardest decision of the game seriously, i was like: "if i rewrite them it could later bite me in the ass but if i dont there is a slight chance of failure....." for 10 minutes i was sitting on that decision until i decided the Paragon route (yeah, yeah i know paragons are douches bla bla).
My motto in ME is : "There's always another way"

[Vabjekf]

Thompson family wrote...

Think of it this way: Somebody holds a gun to your head and asks "Would you rather die or go along with my point of view?" I submit that, if given the choice, most Geth would reach a consensus that choosing to live is better than dying for their ideals.

Thats more of a reaction than a decision.  That particular geth was already defeated and is only trying to save its own life. Shooting it then would definitly be renegade.

I see Shepard's biggest goal is to get a Geth/Quarian ceasefire worked out and to get the Geth to come in on the anti-Reaper side. Geth and the Rachni ("soured the songs of our mothers") are the only major space-faring species who KNOW the Reapers are real, and the Geth have direct knowledge and contact. They've met one and heard Soverign's offer. Most of them didn't buy it.

'the geth' (the non heretics) are already more or less on shepards side, as they would not submit to the reapers and would fight them if the galaxy was being invaded.

Reintigration can potentialy screw it up however since as legion admits they dont know how that would effect 'the geth'

As far as the potential for geth/quarian war thats also not a sure thing.

Consider, a sudden surge in unified geth may be seen as only more reason for the quarians to attack now instead of waiting for them to become even more stronger.

A sudden decline in overall geth may cause the quarians pause to see whats going on.

A more defeatable group of heretics may become a better target for the quarians.

Of course the oposite of all that could also happen, more overall unified geth could discourage war, fewer overall geth could encourage war, etc. But im just saying it could go either way. I wouldnt put it beyond bioware to throw some sort of twist in. Getting the most possible allies full stop may not be the best option against the reapers, maybe fewer higher quality allies is a better option=P Considering that ME2 has a bunch of political conflict all over the place it would not suprise me if shepards actions do not have political outcomes. A small unified ally can probably produce more ships than a race you happened to save that generally likes you but is disorganized.

If there's any species out their that has proof of the existence of the Reapers before the Reapers arrive, it's the Geth.

The more Geth Shepard can bring to the final fight, the better. Also, while blowing up the station would be a crippling blow to the heretics, it would not be fatal. Blowing up the station still leaves some as a distraction. Using the virus makes your side stronger and weakens the real enemy.

There is also the issue of numbers. Legion says that most geth do not exist inside a body. So how many actual combatants are lost with the station? He says there areonly ever a few (relative to total population) active platforms at any given time.

Who has the most industrial power? If the reapers do attack i imagine the geth would just start producing bodies for all their individual programs to inhabit.

Generally speaking planets have stronger industries than space stations.

Given all the variables, if we are ignoring the ideas of right and wrong and simply analyzing the risk/reward from an anti-reaper point of view, i still dont know if the virus is the best choice. Its a gamble that could pay off or hurt you. The non heretic geth are already firmly set against the reapers.

[Skilled Seeker]

Terraneaux wrote...
From a Renegade's perspective it's more Geth who are more likely to be inclined to help out against the Reapers and in general be better predisposed towards organics, so brainwashing makes sense, their foibles be damned.

I disagree. If you'd read what I posted I play mostly renegade characters and I choose to blow up the heretic base because rewriting would strenghen the Geth as a whole which is something my renegades don't want as they can't be trusted. There are more than just 2 ways of looking at things. 

[Vaemer-Riit]

Oh yay this topic again.



1: You are resetting their software to the original configuration. If they where organic it would be the equivalent to medicating a hormone imbalance in the brain.



2: You are not forcing them to have a certain idea, you are fixing their software and allowing them to retreat and rethink their own ideas.

[scotchtape622]

Exactly Seeker, Renshep encouraged the war against the Geth.

[Skilled Seeker]

Vaemer-Riit wrote...

Oh yay this topic again.

1: You are resetting their software to the original configuration. If they where organic it would be the equivalent to medicating a hormone imbalance in the brain.

2: You are not forcing them to have a certain idea, you are fixing their software and allowing them to retreat and rethink their own ideas.

Exactly, as far as I can tell the heretic Geth did not submit willingly to Sovereign but were indoctrinated in a manner of speaking.

[Skilled Seeker]

scotchtape622 wrote...

Exactly Seeker, Renshep encouraged the war against the Geth.

Actually my Shepard wants peace between the Quarians and Geth so that they don't destroy one another and can help fight the Reapers instead. But he still doesn't want to strengthen the Geth as they could become a threat to the galaxy should something unexpected occur, e.g if the hybrid from Project Oerlord had managed to transmit itself onto the extranet.

[Vabjekf]

Vaemer-Riit wrote...

Oh yay this topic again.

1: You are resetting their software to the original configuration. If they where organic it would be the equivalent to medicating a hormone imbalance in the brain.

Actually if they were organic it would be the equivalent of killing them and making new ones, since the individual geths are just their program and most dont even inhabit a body. If you are actually 'resetting' them you are removing the only thing that makes one distinct from another.

2: You are not forcing them to have a certain idea, you are fixing their software and allowing them to retreat and rethink their own ideas.

This is the same weapon the heretics were going to use on the geth to turn everyone into a heretic. If all it actually does is make geths take a moment to reconsider things then the geth are incompotent and dont know how to make a weapon and i dont want anything to do with any of them According to legion the virus subtly manipulates thought processes to return slightly modified results, which over time result in a dramatic shift in conclusions.

Because you allow them to think they came to their own conclusions because you modified the way they reason, instead of just modifying their conclusion straight up, does not change the fact that you are modifying what they think.

[Titanium Man]

Vabjekf wrote...

Titanium Man wrote...

I rewrote them because my Shep's opinion was that they were machines, so rewriting code that defines them (something which Legion is not particularly offended about) is fine because they're just machines and should be used by the galaxy towards a peaceful end. So really it's open to interpretation.

you are just a machine also.

the geth are sapient which makes them every much as alive as you or me.

Legion is about 50/50 on the matter if you talk to him. He doesnt know which is the best option which is why you get to decide and not him.

Obviously 'the geth' as a whole would be stronger if the heretics were re-intigrated. But brainwashing is one of those things that are just considered bad to do. I could get into why, but im pretty sure even people who did not take the time to contemplate that would realize that in general brainwashing ranks up there with bio-weapons and kicking puppies.

My Shep didn't consider this because, like you, he's got his own biased opinions.  I simply acted in-character.  He wouldn't give a second thought to it otherwise and he definitely wouldn't analyze the decision.

[EatChildren]

I dont really want to read throught the entire thread, but from memory you were not brainwashing the heretics, you were resetting their memory and decision making to allow them to come to a new conclusion.



As Legion puts it, the heretics will lose their original decision, and make a new one. There is a possibility they will make a decision equal to Legion, and Shepard, and it is also possible they will make a decision that puts them back in the class of 'heretic'. Simply put, they might go back to how you found them; badguys.



You just need to look at the game's way of dividing right and wrong. In that scenario, the outcome of events is that the heretics will, in some form, be destroyed. You cannot chose to not destroy who they are. You are forced to, its just the way things are.



So, you can either chose to outright destroy them, effectively eradicating their entire existance. Or, you can chose to re-write their decision making, which may lead to them siding with you, or may lead to them becoming heretics again.



There's a lot of moral ambiguity there, but because the game doesnt allow us to simply "let them be" the game's morality choice can only consider the actual choices we're given. Since both scenarios demand that the heretics be altered in some way, you're left with the choice of either destroying them entirely or giving them a second chance.



The former is classed as renegade as, much like destryoing the Rachni queen, it eradicates them from existance entirely. Nips it at the bud, no questions, no second chances, no nothing. Vamoosh.



The latter is classed as paragon, even with its morally grey area, because it at least gives them a second chance, and allows the 'heretics' to continue to exist. Its a risk investment for Shepard as the newly reset heretics may just return to their original decision and become your enemy again.

[Starscream723]

I considered all of the intelligent views in this thread. I debated the morals and ethics of the situation, and asked myself some very profound questions about the nature of intelligence, sapience, and the very basis of life itself.





Then I just remembered all the trouble those robots had caused me over the last two games, and blew them all to hell.



Ethics Shmethics.

[Whatever42]

Whereto wrote...

well think about it. None of the choices were right! you either kill them for believing something different or you convert them.

 
I think you kill them because they work for the Reapers and want to harvest all organic life in the galaxy.  Its not exactly like you disagreed on a book review.

[Vabjekf]

Its not just resting them though, the virus also modifies their decision making, as explained by legion.



The 'we dont know' what will happen part is just that there is no way of knowing exactly what decisions and ideas will be the outcome. While it is possible for them to straight up become heretics again it would need to be by an alternative line of reasoning than their original one because the virus also modifies their thinking.



This is how brainwashing works, you encourage people to think the way you want them to, so they feel like they decided on their own. They are thinking that way because they freely believe it themselves, but they were manipulated into thinking that way.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Vaemer-Riit wrote...



Oh yay this topic again.



1: You are resetting their software to the original configuration. If they where organic it would be the equivalent to medicating a hormone imbalance in the brain.



2: You are not forcing them to have a certain idea, you are fixing their software and allowing them to retreat and rethink their own ideas.

Exactly, as far as I can tell the heretic Geth did not submit willingly to Sovereign but were indoctrinated in a manner of speaking.

If they were indoctrinated or Sovereign used a virus or something, then all geth would be pro-Reaper by the time Mass Effect happens. They were not, your logic is thus flawed.

[snfonseka]

Forget about paragon / renegade points! the most realistic / beneficial thing to is to rewrite them.

[EatChildren]

Vabjekf wrote...

Its not just resting them though, the virus also modifies their decision making, as explained by legion.

The 'we dont know' what will happen part is just that there is no way of knowing exactly what decisions and ideas will be the outcome. While it is possible for them to straight up become heretics again it would need to be by an alternative line of reasoning than their original one because the virus also modifies their thinking.

This is how brainwashing works, you encourage people to think the way you want them to, so they feel like they decided on their own. They are thinking that way because they freely believe it themselves, but they were manipulated into thinking that way.

Yeah, but these are real world morality issues applied to a videogame that for most part doesnt take them into account.

When looking at Mass Effect 2, we're forced to confine the decision making to the choices the game offers us, as well as the general attitude and patterns of renegade and paragon decisions. In reality, there are a million more decisions that could be made, and branching tree of questionable morality, but none of these options are given to us.

As it stands, Mass Effect generally uses renegade options as ones that preserve Shepard's life, with the possibility of gain, at the expense of others. Paragon is generally used as an option that risks Shepard's life, while giving options and freedom to others with critical judgement. Some choices blend the two together a bit, but those are the general directions.

The morality choice in Legion's quest, when divided between the game's attitude towards renegade and paragon, makes sense. We're given no option other than to, in some way, destroy the heretics. We can either destroy them completely, preventing them from ever being a threat to Shepard, or we can reset/brainwash, where they may become an asset to Shepard, but may also return as an enemy. The former fits the renegade view, the latter fits paragon.

As I said, there's a billion layers of real world morality and semantics applied to the situation and definitions of life, sentiance, choice, conciousness, renegade, and paragon, but these real world ethics and philosophies cannot be applied to a restricted game environment with binary decisions. Its fun to philosophise, but in the world of Mass Effect 2 the choices given fit their descriptions, even if they wouldnt in the real world.

[Vabjekf]

snfonseka wrote...

Forget about paragon / renegade points! the most realistic / beneficial thing to is to rewrite them.

You say that now, until you realize that a small fluke in adjusted reasoning allows a geth super weapon to be serendipitously created, resulting in heretical geth with death rays!

EatChildren wrote...
As I said, there's a billion layers of
real world morality and semantics applied to the situation and
definitions of life, sentiance, choice, conciousness, renegade, and
paragon, but these real world ethics and philosophies cannot be applied
to a restricted game environment with binary decisions. Its fun to
philosophise, but in the world of Mass Effect 2 the choices given fit
their descriptions, even if they wouldnt in the real world.

Its
hard for me to buy this when the game itself brings up those points in
the conversations with legion prior to the decision. =/

Modifié par Vabjekf, 28 juillet 2010 - 05:46 .

[IanPolaris]

Vabjekf wrote...

So basically, people who disagree with you have no right to an opinion.

Total Rubbish.

Your rights end at the tip of my nose.  If your opinion requires that I die, then no, I am not obligated to respect your right to that opinion..

Read Hobbes.

-Polaris

[Vabjekf]

IanPolaris wrote...
Your rights end at the tip of my nose.  If your opinion requires that I die, then no, I am not obligated to respect your right to that opinion..

What a selfish viewpoint. What makes you so important?

Life progresses and evolves due to conflict. Ideas are what divide us and allow us to do so. If my opinion requires that you die, then you are obligated to defend yourself if i try to kill you, otherwise, if you just sat there, it was your ideas that were faulty.

The heretical geth came to their conclusion on their own accord. That gives them a right to hold those ideas.

Ideas are all there are. The universe is the medium by which ideas turn into action, conflicting with other actions, proving which idea was better.

Ideas are what define who you are.

[EatChildren]

Vabjekf wrote...

Its
hard for me to buy this when the game itself brings up those points in
the conversations with legion prior to the decision. =/

Which means nothing when the game offers a binary choice and definition of renegade and paragon that you ultimately cannot alter.

Vabjekf wrote...

The heretical geth came to their conclusion on their own accord. That gives them a right to hold those ideas.

Ideas
are all there are. The universe is the medium by which ideas turn into
action, conflicting with other actions, proving which idea was better.

Ideas are what define who you are.

Correct, and in either scenario the geth that hold those ideas are destroyed. It makes no difference if they are destroyed in an ultimate, physical way, or if they are re-written. The identity they have, and the ideas they had formulated, die. Its simply a matter of whether you allow the matter they're a construct of to exist on as a new life, or destroy them entirely.

[Thompson family]

Vabjekf wrote...

Thats more of a reaction than a decision.  That particular geth was already defeated and is only trying to save its own life. Shooting it then would definitly be renegade.

That doesn't change the fact that most people, or Geth, if given the option, would favor staying alive.

'the geth' (the non heretics) are already more or less on shepards side, as they would not submit to the reapers and would fight them if the galaxy was being invaded.

So why kill off a significant fraction of your de-facto allies?

Reintegration can potentialy screw it up however since as legion admits they dont know how that would effect 'the geth'

I'm not quite following you here. Sorry.

As far as the potential for geth/quarian war that's also not a sure thing.

Consider, a sudden surge in unified geth may be seen as only more reason for the quarians to attack now instead of waiting for them to become even more stronger.

A sudden decline in overall geth may cause the quarians pause to see whats going on.

A more defeatable group of heretics may become a better target for the quarians.

A stronger enemy never encourages an attack. I submit that not killing all the heretics makes a quarian-get war  less likely. As you say:

Of course the oposite of all that could also happen, more overall unified geth could discourage war, fewer overall geth could encourage war, etc.

Modifié par Thompson family, 28 juillet 2010 - 06:06 .

[Thompson family]

Starscream723 wrote...

I considered all of the intelligent views in this thread. I debated the morals and ethics of the situation, and asked myself some very profound questions about the nature of intelligence, sapience, and the very basis of life itself.


Then I just remembered all the trouble those robots had caused me over the last two games, and blew them all to hell.

Ethics Shmethics.

This view, I admit, does possess a certain validity.

[Vabjekf]

In either scenario the geth that hold those ideas are destroyed. It makes no difference if they are destroyed in an ultimate, physical way, or if they are re-written. The identity they have, and the ideas they had formulated, die. Its simply a matter of whether you allow the matter they're a construct of to exist on as a new life, or destroy them entirely.

Given how the geth jump in and out of their physical platforms like we change shoes.. hmm

Thinking of it like that, using the virus does kill all the geth.

So in the end it really does boil down to "explosions... thats the renegade option, right?"

The problem though is that given that the geth are not really tied to physical form i dont think its that hard to just copy a few million or however many you need. It almost would have been an easier and more sensible decision of the options at the end flat out said either "just blow everything up" or "kill all the geth programs with the virus"

Then it becomes a collector-base decision of  "do we want all the left over hardware?"

However i have no idea why this is even a big deal if the above is right and geth AIs can be created out of thin air with little effort.