283 réponses à ce sujet

[Vabjekf]

Thompson family wrote...

That doesn't change the fact that most people, or Geth, if given the option, would favor staying alive.

And it doent change the fact that brainwashing is still considered reprehensible by most people. Just one of those funny things about the universe i guess...

A stronger enemy never encourages an attack. I submit that not killing all the heretics makes a quarian-get war  less likely

If the quarians were reasonable they would be settling down on some planets somewhere and getting a massive industry going to pump out space ships to fight the geth with. They seem content to float around in their patched up trash-barges arguing with each other over a direct assault on their old home world. A sudden increase in geth numbers could easily be seen as an increase in geth production making it look like if they are ever going to attack they better do it soon before the geth gain even more troops.

Of course they would fail anyway if they attacked any number of geth because they are apparently mostly incompotent =P

[EatChildren]

It ultimately boils down to whether or not you want to destroy potential.



As said, either scenario has the heretics die. The choice comes down to either destroying their future potential, or letting them 'live on'. If the mind is to be destroyed, do you destroy the body as well, or let the body live on through the mind of another?

[IanPolaris]

Vabjekf wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Your rights end at the tip of my nose.  If your opinion requires that I die, then no, I am not obligated to respect your right to that opinion..

What a selfish viewpoint. What makes you so important?

Again, RUBBISH.

What makes me important?  Decarte said it best:

I AM

All sentient being have an absolute and uncontestable right to defend themselves.  If another person (or race in this case) makes it impossible for them to permit my existance, then I am not obligated to respect that opinion at the expense of my own existance!

That is what you stubbornly refuse to get.  The Heretics have no right to an opinion because their very choices have made coexistance impossible.  The Heretics must one way or another be eliminated.

The Paragon Choice is then clearly the choice that preserves as much of the Heretics as possible while protecting my own existance....and that is rewrite....even at some risk.

What don't you get?  My right to defend myself supercedes all other rights.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Vabjekf wrote...
And it doent change the fact that brainwashing is still considered reprehensible by most people. Just one of those funny things about the universe i guess...

Brainwashing someone that isn't a direct threat to you is rephrensible.  Brainwashing someone that is a threat to your existance is not.  What we do to sex criminals is probably brainwashing, or do you think that pedophiles have a natural right to lust after children and we should do nothing about it?

It sounds like an extreme comparison but it isn't.  In both cases, a choice/opinion/lifestyle puts a person (or race) in a position where they are a direct threat to others.  In such cases "reeducation" is appropriate.

-Polaris

[Thompson family]

Vabjekf wrote...


And it doent change the fact that brainwashing is still considered reprehensible by most people. Just one of those funny things about the universe i guess...

I consider the killing millions -- that was how many Geth were in the servers, correct? — of sentient beings reprehensible. Legion didn't ask Shepard what "most people" would decide. He asked Shepard to decide. My Shepard made the decision.

If the quarians were reasonable ...

You say they aren't. So not much point to that discussion.

[jklinders]

Neither is particularly ethical. War is a dirty dirty business. They fired the first shot, they were going to impose their sense of order on all the geth. I say using their own tools against them is perfectly reasonable in this instance. Legion basically says that the rest of the collective has essentially sent them into a corner to think about their actions, seeing as their memory remains.

They can still choose their own path, and harbinger's rewriting toy was taken from them.

[fantasypisces]

Legion told me to not use my morals when considering the geth, holding them to my race's standards is racist. So my Shep didn't pretend to understand the Geth, and instead got most of his information from Legion.



In the end the conversation that made me choose to rewrite them was when I asked how the rest of the collective stands, and it was like 153 for rewrite - 150 for destroy. Rewrite had the majority so I just assumed that is mostly what the collective wants.

[Cheese Elemental]

Shandepared wrote...

I think the choice should be paragon/renegade neutral.

A choice that I do think should be reversed is the one on Tali's loyalty mission concerning the evidence if you can't rally the crowd or charm/intimidate the Admiralty Board.

Seems to me that a paragon would be more concerned with telling the truth, even if it means angering Tali, and that a renegade would just get the job done even if it means lying to the entire Migrant Fleet.

Rael's experiments were an isolated incident, and nobody but his science team knew what he was up to. If the Geth found out, it might incite them to attack en masse and devastate the Migrant Fleet.
Furthermore, if the admirals recieved his research, the Quarians might start a war against the Geth that they'd have no hope of winning, even with that data.

A Paragon would try to prevent a war that would screw over an important ally.

[Thompson family]

fantasypisces wrote...

In the end the conversation that made me choose to rewrite them was when I asked how the rest of the collective stands, and it was like 153 for rewrite - 150 for destroy. Rewrite had the majority so I just assumed that is mostly what the collective wants.

I think it was even closer than that, but you're right. By a simple majority vote, using the virus won.

[IanPolaris]

Shandepared wrote...
Though on the topic of rewrite and brainwashing I wonder if all the people advocating the rewrite are also supporters of Daro'Xen and Rael'Zorah? What they want (or wanted) to do is no different really. The virus the heretics created is even strong evidence that Xen's plans just might work.

This is utterly false.  Read my prior posts.  There is a world of difference between what Daro'Xen wants and what I want when (as a paragon Shepard) I rewrite the heretics.

It is this:  Daro'Xen doesn't care about the Geth one way or another except in so far as they could be useful slaves.  She really does have the mind-set of a Bataarian about this.

OTOH, the Paragon Shepard has to deal with a race/culture that has decided that it will not coexist with any other sentient life.  The moment the heretics made that decision, they had to be destroyed....they lose all right to any further consideration.  However, at least with the rewrite, the former Heretics are given a chance to continue to exist and contribute after their unsustainable impluses have been cured.

Again see my posts above.  There is a world of difference between Xen rewriting the Geth to make slaves, and Paragon Shep rewriting the Heretics in galactic self-defense (while still keeping the Heretic's free will in all other respects).

-Polaris

[chucktheduck]

Paragon:

Co-existence is impossible

Has no feelings- mercy, shock, or otherwise

Give geth an even more powerful army.



Renegade:

Destroys large amount of geth

Leaves other heretics to rebuild

Destroys virus for good.



I don't see any correct choice. I depends on what your willing to gamble.

I, for one, will take the chance that the geth may turn on organics later. They are powerful, intelligent, and all-around useful machines. This brings me to my next point: if Bioware has it so that organics treat the geth wrongly, then you risk war. Legion says that the geth don't really mind co-existence with organics as much as they believe that organics will make it impossible. Plus, it leaves less heretics to rebuild.

[Cheese Elemental]

Shandepared wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

There is a world of difference between what Daro'Xen wants and what I want when (as a paragon Shepard) I rewrite the heretics.

No there isn't. You are forcibly changing their thought processes so that they are more agreeable to you. Daro'Xen is doing the exact same thing. You're a hypocrite.

Daro'Xen wants to use them as nothing more than tools. The modified virus will just change their minds while leaving them with the rest of their liberties intact.

[Spartas Husky]

lol



Potatoes... Potatos

[BurningArmor]

The following is not a judgement about the decision of anyone else concerning rewrite or destruction of the Heratics.  It is merely how I thought about it.  If you needed to blow up the Heratics to enjoy your game, by all means, pull that trigger twice. 

Rewrite or Destroy the Heratics; It would seem it should be a very straight forward choice.  Do one or the other.  Even the Geth could not come to consensus on it.  They finally decided to let Shepard make the decision for them.  Strange, but I think the Geth have their reasons for it.  I am absolutely sure they were paying close attension to Shepard's decision.  After all, they have been at war with the Quarians for more than 300 years for the Quarian attempt to silence the Geth.

Right or wrong, I selected rewrite.  I had Legion fix the runtime library that Sovreign changed so long ago.

Talking with Legion, I felt the Geth do not see fixing the runtime library as "Brain Washing".  I think they saw it as the same thing as fixing a loose connection or replacing a bad joint in a mobile platform.  As such, the Geth did not have a problem with it.  If this was true, I considered this a chance to build a bridge to the Geth.  The hard part about this choice I think is giving the trust to get their trust.  In either case, it did leave Legion loyal to Shepard at the Collector Base.

It was interesting to note that after destroying the Collector Base, Legion and the Geth were doing some serious reconsideration about their stance toward humans and about Shepard in particular having found him "more like the Geth than they had realized." 

Now, the next big trick will be to figure out how to get Admiral Xen to back off without alienating Tali and the rest of the Quarians.   Somebody got an extra wizard for me to borrow?  I could use some PFM (Pure Freaking Magic) to make this happen.

[Neo Hex Omega]

Shandepared wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

There is a world of difference between what Daro'Xen wants and what I want when (as a paragon Shepard) I rewrite the heretics.

No there isn't. You are forcibly changing their thought processes so that they are more agreeable to you. Daro'Xen is doing the exact same thing. You're a hypocrite.

The word hypocrite doesn't apply here, by the way.


In regards to the topic at hand, I don't think this is the kind of decision that should have been handled by the Paragon/Renegade system. My opinion is that both choices have too many gray areas to judge them as either Paragon or Renegade... but perhaps seeing the outcome in Mass Effect 3 will shed light on this.

[Cheese Elemental]

Shandepared wrote...

Cheese Elemental wrote...

Daro'Xen wants to use them as nothing more than tools. The modified virus will just change their minds while leaving them with the rest of their liberties intact.

You want to use them as tools of war against the Reapers. Xen wants to use them for the benefit of her people. You are not preserving their liberties, you are robbing them of their self determination. What Xen wants to do is no different.

Xen wants to control them. When re-written, they can still think for themselves. Xen would use them as slaves, while a Paragon would make them allies.

[EricHVela]

I just tell myself that the unmodified virus was similar to indoctrination in living things and that the Heretics were indoctrinated by Nazara somehow causing that same flaw in the Geth they (Nazara) contacted just as designed in their (Nazara's) virus and that this new, modified virus was the cure for the indoctrination.

I am making a lot of guesses, but I'm okay with that. I like to think I'm curing them. I'll worry about being wrong in the next game. It is currently the only way I can resolve the whole Paragon for rewritting issue.

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 29 juillet 2010 - 12:52 .

[Cheese Elemental]

Shandepared wrote...

Cheese Elemental wrote...

Xen wants to control them. When re-written, they can still think for themselves. Xen would use them as slaves, while a Paragon would make them allies.

Same. ****ing. Thing.

You're controling them when you force them to abandon their worship of the Reapers. I could say that Xen is making allies of them as well. In fact she's making a stronger alliance than you are. The geth won't be slaves, they'll be willing aids to the quarian people. Once they've been infected with Xen's virus they will want to serve the quarians just as they would want to fight the Reapers if you infected them on the heretic station.

It is no different.

No it's not.

Legion explicity tells you that the re-written heretics will 're-think' their actions. That implies that they DO have a choice, but the virus simply shows them the correct one. Xen wants to enslave them again, leaving them with no will other than that of their masters.

[Neo Hex Omega]

Shandepared wrote...

Neo Hex Omega wrote...

The word hypocrite doesn't apply here, by the way.

Yes it does.

Look in a dictionary and then come back.

Done yet?

A hypocrite expresses a belief that does not fall in line with his actions.

The word you were looking for is contradictory, because a statement was made that is not, in your opinion, in line with another previous statement.

Using the word hypocrite in this instance is unnecessarily antagonistic.