If these were humans or turians, would brainwashing them to be of use in a war be considered a paragon act? No, it wouldn't. It would probably net a large Renegade bonus considering it fits the End Justify the Means outlook of a Renegade. Blowing them up feels like something a person would do to simply remove the threat.
Legion loyalty ending is backwards
Débuté par
Vabjekf
, juil. 28 2010 06:45
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#102
Guest_Shandepared_*
Posté 29 juillet 2010 - 01:14
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Neo Hex Omega wrote...
A hypocrite expresses a belief that does not fall in line with his actions.
Which is exactly what the rewriters are doing.
Cheese Elemental wrote...
Legion explicity tells you that the re-written heretics will 're-think' their actions. That implies that they DO have a choice, but the virus simply shows them the correct one. Xen wants to enslave them again, leaving them with no will other than that of their masters.
If the virus was leaving the geth with a choice then it wouldn't be a threat and Legion wouldn't have bothered going to the trouble of boarding the Reaper and then dragging Shepard off to the heretic station. It is not leaving them with any choice. It will change their thought processes so that they inevitably choose to go along with the rest of the geth.
Xen will leave them with no will beyond serving the quarians. You will leave them with no will beyond serving the "true" geth.
#103
Posté 29 juillet 2010 - 01:17
EricHVela
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But what if you're actually "curing" them by removing an error that Nazara placed within them (similar to the virus that Nazara created)? We don't know that didn't happen nor do we know it did. But what if? (Nazara re-determined living things after all. What's to say they couldn't do it to synthetics, too? Nazara did design the virus after all.)
As I said, it's the only way I can resolve it being a Paragon choice by placing them back on their self-determining path before Nazara re-determined them. If I'm wrong, I'll worry about it next game.
As I said, it's the only way I can resolve it being a Paragon choice by placing them back on their self-determining path before Nazara re-determined them. If I'm wrong, I'll worry about it next game.
Modifié par ReggarBlane, 29 juillet 2010 - 01:20 .
#104
Posté 29 juillet 2010 - 01:20
Nightwriter
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A destructive action is generally renegade.
#105
Posté 29 juillet 2010 - 01:20
Cheese Elemental
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It's not servitude to the Geth, they're rejoining them to co-exist peacefully.Shandepared wrote...
If the virus was leaving the geth with a choice then it wouldn't be a threat and Legion wouldn't have bothered going to the trouble of boarding the Reaper and then dragging Shepard off to the heretic station. It is not leaving them with any choice. It will change their thought processes so that they inevitably choose to go along with the rest of the geth.
Xen will leave them with no will beyond serving the quarians. You will leave them with no will beyond serving the "true" geth.
#106
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Posté 29 juillet 2010 - 01:21
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ReggarBlane wrote...
But what if you're actually "curing" them by removing an error that Nazara placed within them (similar to the virus that Nazara created)? We don't know that didn't happen nor do we know it did. But what if? (Nazara re-determned living things after all. What's to say they couldn't do it to syntheics, too?)
If Sovereign had done that he'd have long-since converted all the geth.
I mean who'd have guessed that genocidal machines would find a sense of kinship with other genocidal machines?
Is it really so hard to believe that the same geth that exterminated billions of defenseless quarians would see an alliance with other machines that have exterminated tens of trillions of organics as a good idea?
#107
Posté 29 juillet 2010 - 01:21
EricHVela
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So is enslavement... if one isn't curing synthetic indoctrination.Nightwriter wrote...
A destructive action is generally renegade.
#108
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Posté 29 juillet 2010 - 01:22
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Cheese Elemental wrote...
It's not servitude to the Geth, they're rejoining them to co-exist peacefully.
Xen's geth will co-exist with the quarians peacefully.
#109
Posté 29 juillet 2010 - 01:25
EricHVela
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Why didn't they (Nazara) use the virus already if they (Nazara) had it? The Geth would have already all been converted. I don't think Nazara had the virus at that time and could only affect some of the Geth them(Nazara)selves.Shandepared wrote...
If Sovereign had done that he'd have long-since converted all the geth.
Nazara also didn't seem to be able to indoctrinate everyone. I suspect that Nazara only needed enough and didn't want to risk discovery of the error they (Nazara) were creating in some of the Geth. It does fit with the ever-repeating theme of Reaper Indoctrination but in a synthetic organism instead.
#110
Posté 29 juillet 2010 - 01:31
Cheese Elemental
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No, they will be reduced to tools again.Shandepared wrote...
Cheese Elemental wrote...
It's not servitude to the Geth, they're rejoining them to co-exist peacefully.
Xen's geth will co-exist with the quarians peacefully.
#111
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Posté 29 juillet 2010 - 01:37
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ReggarBlane wrote...
Why didn't they (Nazara) use the virus already if they (Nazara) had it?
He
didn't. What he gave them was a basically a safe that they could store
the virus in once it was complete. Presumably the heretics had only
recently completed the virus when you boarded the station and would have
used it in the near future.
Cheese Elemental wrote...
No, they will be reduced to tools again.
Horrible, yes? No different from what you did with them. Look at all of this from the Heretics' perspective. Whether it is the quarians or the true geth the Heretics are having their freedom taken from them. They can then either exist as a benefit to the rest of the geth collective or as a benefit to their creators. In the end it makes no differnece.
#112
Posté 29 juillet 2010 - 01:42
EricHVela
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Just one question then: Is it *possible* that some Geth were indoctrinated by the same "error" method similar to that first virus except from transmissions directly from Nazara causing this error without a virus?
(If so, then the remade virus could be a cure for this indoctrination. Either case, we don't know for certain, but one of those themes fits Nazara's MO.)
(If so, then the remade virus could be a cure for this indoctrination. Either case, we don't know for certain, but one of those themes fits Nazara's MO.)
#113
Posté 29 juillet 2010 - 01:46
Cheese Elemental
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It's completely different.Shandepared wrote...
Horrible, yes? No different from what you did with them. Look at all of this from the Heretics' perspective. Whether it is the quarians or the true geth the Heretics are having their freedom taken from them. They can then either exist as a benefit to the rest of the geth collective or as a benefit to their creators. In the end it makes no differnece.
If Xen controls them, they become mere tools. They won't be sapient anymore and lose all their basic rights.
If they rejoin the pure Geth, the whole will be strengthened and they'll be better off.
#114
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Posté 29 juillet 2010 - 01:48
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Cheese Elemental wrote...
They won't be sapient anymore and lose all their basic rights.
If they rejoin the pure Geth, the whole will be strengthened and they'll be better off.
How do you know they won't be sapient anymore and how do you know they won't be better off as servants and guardians of the quarians? That is the purpose they were created for after all and Legion implies the geth want the quarians to return eventually. Xen's plan is easily the best option for all parties involved. The geth are given purpose, the quarains get their homeworld back, and together they are well protected.
#115
Posté 29 juillet 2010 - 01:55
Nightwriter
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ReggarBlane wrote...
So is enslavement... if one isn't curing synthetic indoctrination.Nightwriter wrote...
A destructive action is generally renegade.
So I take it you think rewriting the geth is the way to go?
I rewrote the geth. It seemed like it was interpretive to me whether it was paragon or renegade, but I saw it as paragon.
#116
Posté 29 juillet 2010 - 02:03
Cheese Elemental
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omfgShandepared wrote...
Cheese Elemental wrote...
They won't be sapient anymore and lose all their basic rights.
If they rejoin the pure Geth, the whole will be strengthened and they'll be better off.
How do you know they won't be sapient anymore and how do you know they won't be better off as servants and guardians of the quarians? That is the purpose they were created for after all and Legion implies the geth want the quarians to return eventually. Xen's plan is easily the best option for all parties involved. The geth are given purpose, the quarains get their homeworld back, and together they are well protected.
The geth want the quarians to return to Rannoch because they don't need it. They cleaned it up and want to live in a Dyson Sphere so they'll never be divided again.
#117
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Posté 29 juillet 2010 - 02:25
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Cheese Elemental wrote...
The geth want the quarians to return to Rannoch because they don't need it. They cleaned it up and want to live in a Dyson Sphere so they'll never be divided again.
What does this have to do with anything?
#118
Posté 29 juillet 2010 - 02:27
Spartas Husky
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lol never going to end, so fun 
Modifié par Spartas Husky, 29 juillet 2010 - 02:29 .
#120
Posté 29 juillet 2010 - 02:38
Ramgigon
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Note that Paragon isn't the same as good, and Renegade isn't the same thing as evil. Paragons try to help as many people as they can, Renegades do anything to reach their goal as easily as possible. Look at a couple major points throughout the games for reference:
The genophage, which cuts Krogan fertility rates to a thousandth normal. It was inflicted upon the race to keep them from dangerous expansion that may endanger the galaxy. Ultimately, the genophage can be viewed as killing off 99.9% of Krogan births, at the cost of ultimately protecting the galaxy. Opposing the genophage's flat-out disgusting methods is Paragon, while supporting its ultimately protective goals is Renegade.
The Rachni, the entire sapient race with its very existence held in your hands in ME1. You can either kill off the last ones in the galaxy, forever wiping them out so as to protect them from causing war as they did so many years ago; on the other hand, you can also choose to spare them, risking an eventual second bloody war to avoid inflicting genocide. Killing them, inflicting genocide on an entire race to prevent war in the end, is Renegade. Sparing them, allowing them to live despite the risk of an eventual war, is Paragon.
And so on. You might say Paragons are benevolent but naive, while Renegades are pragmatic but cold. Neither one is really "good," or "evil."
Apply this to the heretics. You have two options: introduce a virus that will effectively "change their minds," allowing them to live, at the risk of an eventual war with the now strengthened Geth; if that's not your thing, you can blow them up and kill them all to get rid of the risk of war in the future.
Whether or not one is ethically "right" or "wrong" is irrelevant. Paragons naturally would choose to protect as many as possible in the immediate present, sparing the lives of all the heretics. Renegades would just blow them up to get them out of the way. It seems perfectly logical to me, at least in tune with Paragon/Renegade trends.
Personally, I'd argue that rewriting is the "right" thing to do, but that could be a debate that goes on as long as people don't understand consciousness, ethics, and mind - as the friendly forumites in the thread here kindly show~ :happy:
The genophage, which cuts Krogan fertility rates to a thousandth normal. It was inflicted upon the race to keep them from dangerous expansion that may endanger the galaxy. Ultimately, the genophage can be viewed as killing off 99.9% of Krogan births, at the cost of ultimately protecting the galaxy. Opposing the genophage's flat-out disgusting methods is Paragon, while supporting its ultimately protective goals is Renegade.
The Rachni, the entire sapient race with its very existence held in your hands in ME1. You can either kill off the last ones in the galaxy, forever wiping them out so as to protect them from causing war as they did so many years ago; on the other hand, you can also choose to spare them, risking an eventual second bloody war to avoid inflicting genocide. Killing them, inflicting genocide on an entire race to prevent war in the end, is Renegade. Sparing them, allowing them to live despite the risk of an eventual war, is Paragon.
And so on. You might say Paragons are benevolent but naive, while Renegades are pragmatic but cold. Neither one is really "good," or "evil."
Apply this to the heretics. You have two options: introduce a virus that will effectively "change their minds," allowing them to live, at the risk of an eventual war with the now strengthened Geth; if that's not your thing, you can blow them up and kill them all to get rid of the risk of war in the future.
Whether or not one is ethically "right" or "wrong" is irrelevant. Paragons naturally would choose to protect as many as possible in the immediate present, sparing the lives of all the heretics. Renegades would just blow them up to get them out of the way. It seems perfectly logical to me, at least in tune with Paragon/Renegade trends.
Personally, I'd argue that rewriting is the "right" thing to do, but that could be a debate that goes on as long as people don't understand consciousness, ethics, and mind - as the friendly forumites in the thread here kindly show~ :happy:
#121
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Posté 29 juillet 2010 - 02:40
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I mostly support the rewrite from a tactical perspective. Having the heretics' military power on your side against the Reapers would be useful.
#122
Posté 29 juillet 2010 - 02:43
Cheese Elemental
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Everything, dammit! You said Xen's plan was the best solution for everyone, but it's obviously not to the geth. Their goal is to find their own destiny, not become slaves to their creators again. By re-writing the heretics, you're helping them. It's what's best for their species as a whole.Shandepared wrote...
Cheese Elemental wrote...
The geth want the quarians to return to Rannoch because they don't need it. They cleaned it up and want to live in a Dyson Sphere so they'll never be divided again.
What does this have to do with anything?
Christ on a bike, it's like I'm really talking to a brick wall.
#123
Posté 29 juillet 2010 - 02:46
chapa3
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"It seemed like it was interpretive to me whether it was paragon or renegade, but I saw it as paragon."
Wait a minute, your reasoning behind rewriting the geth is 30 blue points instead of 30 red ones?
Wait a minute, your reasoning behind rewriting the geth is 30 blue points instead of 30 red ones?
#124
Guest_Shandepared_*
Posté 29 juillet 2010 - 02:47
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Cheese Elemental wrote...
Everything, dammit! You said Xen's plan was the best solution for everyone, but it's obviously not to the geth. Their goal is to find their own destiny, not become slaves to their creators again.
Their goal is whatever their programming says it is. If Xen changes their programming so that it says the geth should serve the quarians then the geth will want to serve the quarians. The geth will no longer be a threat to galactic security and the quarians will be well protected. Everyone wins.
When you rewrite the heretics you're doing the same thing Xen is. Once again, look at it from the heretics' perspective.
#125
Posté 29 juillet 2010 - 02:51
Cheese Elemental
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And Xen's programming is morally abhorrent. She wants to force them into slavery, but the reverse-engineered virus will unite them again so they can help you and then achieve their goal of unity and peace. Yes, OK, it's ****ing brainwashing them if you look at it from a certain perspective, but it's for the best no matter what.Shandepared wrote...
Cheese Elemental wrote...
Everything, dammit! You said Xen's plan was the best solution for everyone, but it's obviously not to the geth. Their goal is to find their own destiny, not become slaves to their creators again.
Their goal is whatever their programming says it is. If Xen changes their programming so that it says the geth should serve the quarians then the geth will want to serve the quarians. The geth will no longer be a threat to galactic security and the quarians will be well protected. Everyone wins.
When you rewrite the heretics you're doing the same thing Xen is. Once again, look at it from the heretics' perspective.
