283 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

chapa3 wrote...

If you see them as sapient species, then by what right do you have to rewrite their way of thinking to fit your idea of "peace and co-existance".

The same right I have to destroy them becuase they will not peacefully allow for my existance.

The moral right to destroy the heretics isn't in question (and it isn't an option anyway).  Either choice effectively destroys the heretics.....and it was their own decisions that forced us into it.

If a being or beings hold beliefs and views and act on them that makes it impossible for them to keep from trying to destroy me (either individually or collectively), then I absolutely have a right to destroy them for that belief by the right of self-defense by any means necessary.

Rewrite is merely one such means and it's less destructive and at perserves something of the heretics which simple genocide (the renegade option) does not.

-Polaris

[Cheese Elemental]

Shandepared wrote...

Cheese Elemental wrote...

That's the worst part! They won't even know that they've been brainwashed and they'll be reduced to docile slaves with no rights. Legion's re-write isn't the same because it convinces the heretics that they're wrong while Xen wants absolute dominance, which implies total control of their thought-processes.

You are such a dolt. Legion's rewreite "convinces" the heretics to follow the other geth and Xen's rewrite would 'convince' the geth to serve the quarians. It's the same thing except for which party ultimately is controlling them.

Jesus ****ing Christ!

Xen wants to ENSLAVE them. Legion wants them to JOIN you.

Don't you call me a dolt. I'm not the one wearing blinkers.

[chapa3]

"It's not genocide. They want to destroy all organic life, a belief incompatible with galactic society. They won't negotiate and they won't surrender, but they have valuable memories and resources, making re-writing them good for both them and the pure geth, as well as Shepard."

Geth Heretics never originally intended to desire the destruction of organic life. Sovereign demanded that any geth aligned with it would see organics as a target. In exchange, they recieve advanced reaper technology.

Now, there are 2 ways this can be interpreted. One, Geth were rewritten by Sovereign. Therefore, they are machines, and it is wiser to destroy them, as someone else may just as easily make them hostile again. Or two, they are sapient, chose to follow Sovereign, and therefore, they made their decision on their own consensus. Therefore, they are a seperate culture, and rewriting them is genocide.

"Rewrite is merely one such means and it's less destructive and at perserves something of the heretics which simple genocide (the renegade option) does not."

On one hand, you violenty wipe out an entire culture. On the other hand, you erase the culture in a way akin to the fate of the Protheans (all geth are tools to one another essentially).  Depends on you moral stand point, in a nut shell.

Modifié par chapa3, 29 juillet 2010 - 04:03 .

[IanPolaris]

Shandepared wrote...

Cheese Elemental wrote...

That's the worst part! They won't even know that they've been brainwashed and they'll be reduced to docile slaves with no rights. Legion's re-write isn't the same because it convinces the heretics that they're wrong while Xen wants absolute dominance, which implies total control of their thought-processes.

You are such a dolt. Legion's rewreite "convinces" the heretics to follow the other geth and Xen's rewrite would 'convince' the geth to serve the quarians. It's the same thing except for which party ultimately is controlling them.

False.  Xen wants to turn all Geth into mindless slaves whether they are a direct threat to her or her own or not.  That IS morally reprehensible.  With the rewrite, you are fixing/altering a key component of heretic logic that PREVENTS them from coexisting with others (the alterative is genocide least we forget) but they STILL (and Legion confirms this) have to rejoin and find a new concensus of their own free will.

There is a universe of difference here.

-Polaris

[Spartas Husky]

whats a dolt???

[thegreateski]

Theoretical situation.

If you had the option to brainwash all the Reapers into being your unquestioning servants instead of killing them all would you do it?

Modifié par thegreateski, 29 juillet 2010 - 04:04 .

[chapa3]

Personally, I think bioware simply renamed pacifist and violent as paragon and renegade.

[Spartas Husky]

thegreateski wrote...

Theoretical situation.

If you had the option to brainwash all the Reapers into being your unquestioning servants instead of killing them all would you do it?

Hell no, if I can come up witha  way, somebody else surely can as well... they are too dangerous to be left alive.

Just like the virus, as legion states "we deem it too dangerous too allow its existence"

chapa3 wrote...

Personally, I think bioware simply renamed pacifist and violent as paragon and renegade.

Do not know if it is gratifying to hear that from the 70's the word, pacifist changed from, overly happy to be a coward, to overly happy to enslave.:innocent:

Modifié par Spartas Husky, 29 juillet 2010 - 04:07 .

[IanPolaris]

chapa3 wrote...

"It's not genocide. They want to destroy all organic life, a belief incompatible with galactic society. They won't negotiate and they won't surrender, but they have valuable memories and resources, making re-writing them good for both them and the pure geth, as well as Shepard."

Geth Heretics never originally intended to desire the destruction of organic life. Sovereign demanded that any geth aligned with it would see organics as a target. In exchange, they recieve advanced reaper technology.

That is irrelevant.  The Heretics do want to see the destruction of all organic life now because their gods demand it.  Without a fundamental shift of the heretic logic (rewrite), the only other option is to utterly destroy them lest they destroy all organics.

That MAKES it morally sound to destroy them.  You ARE permitted to destroy a thing if it presents a real and immediate threat to your continued existance.  Read Hobbes.  The absolute right to self defense is one of the few true natural rights that exists.

Now, there are 2 ways this can be interpreted. One, Geth were rewritten by Sovereign. Therefore, they are machines, and it is wiser to destroy them, as someone else may just as easily make them hostile again. Or two, they are sapient, chose to follow Sovereign, and therefore, they made their decision on their own consensus. Therefore, they are a seperate culture, and rewriting them is genocide.

So what?  By reaching a concensus that made coexistance impossible, they leave you no choice but to commit genocide.  Legion himself tells you this.  However, at least with a rewrite, you can salvage something of the Heretics (think of it as forced rehabilitation) while the alterantive is complete genocide.

I don't see why it's so hard to see that rewrite is the paragon solution in this case (neither is particularly nice).

-Polaris

[Cheese Elemental]

Spartas Husky wrote...

whats a dolt???

Another way to say 'idiot'.

[IanPolaris]

thegreateski wrote...

Theoretical situation.

If you had the option to brainwash all the Reapers into being your unquestioning servants instead of killing them all would you do it?

I'd consider it since the alternative would be genocide of one side or the other.  What I'd actually decide would depend on a great many other factors.

-Polaris

[Spartas Husky]

Cheese Elemental wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...



whats a dolt???

Another way to say 'idiot'.

HAHAHAHA... wow, never heard of it... sounds like an insult a 5 yr old would say.. all nice and cuddly without the nasty nice

[IanPolaris]

Shandepared wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

False.  Xen wants to turn all Geth into mindless slaves whether they are a direct threat to her or her own or not.

The geth wouldn't be geth if they were mindless. As it stands the geth will not coexist with anybody. They insist on maintaing an extremely militant form of isolationism. They're dangerous and can't be trusted. Bringing them back under organic control is for the best.

From the perspective of the heretics there is no difference between Xen or Legion.

Here is what you persistantly and willfully miss.  The moment that the Heretics reached a concensus that made coexistance with all other (organic) life impossible, they FORFEITED all right to any consideration of their perspective.  By threatening my existance, they have eliminated any right to my consideration of their existance.

-Polaris

[chapa3]

"That MAKES it morally sound to destroy them. You ARE permitted to destroy a thing if it presents a real and immediate threat to your continued existance. Read Hobbes. The absolute right to self defense is one of the few true natural rights that exists."



I never argued that destroying the geth heretics was immoral. I've done it myself in every playthrough.

[IanPolaris]

Shandepared wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Here is what you persistantly and willfully miss.  The moment that the Heretics reached a concensus that made coexistance with all other (organic) life impossible, they FORFEITED all right to any consideration of their perspective.  By threatening my existance, they have eliminated any right to my consideration of their existance.

-Polaris

I don't contest that, but I don't see how this makes Xen's approach morally reprehensible.

I'll tell you:

Xen:  I want to enslave all Geth because I can and because the Quarians are the Geth's rightful owners anyway.

Me:  I want to rewrite Heretic Geth because they present as they are a direct threat to the very existance of organic life.

See the difference?

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

chapa3 wrote...

"That MAKES it morally sound to destroy them. You ARE permitted to destroy a thing if it presents a real and immediate threat to your continued existance. Read Hobbes. The absolute right to self defense is one of the few true natural rights that exists."

I never argued that destroying the geth heretics was immoral. I've done it myself in every playthrough.

Then you shouldn't have any moral issues with rewriting them.  After all both blowing them up and rewriting them are both means to destroy the heretics.

If you have practical qualms, that's a different issue, but it was my understanding this was an ethics discussion.

-Polaris

[chapa3]

Xen's approach is not morally reprehensible, as geth do not have emotions. Her approach is just simply a disastor waiting to happen. AIs that are built from the bottom up (unlike EDI, which was built from the top down) are not difficult to manipulate with a good virus. Imagine a disastor like the Hahne Kedar incident, and this time the robot does not bump into walls.

[chapa3]

"Then you shouldn't have any moral issues with rewriting them. After all both blowing them up and rewriting them are both means to destroy the heretics.



If you have practical qualms, that's a different issue, but it was my understanding this was an ethics discussion."



Well, this was originally a question of how the decision to rewrite the geth is paragon. The problem is, paragon is a rather general word.

[Mallissin]

thegreateski wrote...

Mallissin wrote...

People never seem to pay attention to the story and then argue about the paragon/renegade choices.

Sovereign corrupted the heretic geth using a virus or indoctrination. Using a virus to remove it, isn't brainwashing...it's resetting.

No it's not.

That fragment of the Geth reached the conclusion that serving the Reapers was the right course of action by themselves.

Right. Saren, who was indoctrinated, was able to convince a race of logical beings, who feel no ill will against their own creators that tried to wipe them all out, that his ship (Sovereign) was their god. Afterwards, they start attacking all organics and become paranoid about the normal geth enough to plant spies.

Read between the lines.

They did not follow Sovereign or Saren by their own free will. They were indoctrinated as well.

[Spartas Husky]

" in between lines" yes... that is credible proof...."in between lines" just shows how fragile your state of mind is...



"in between lines" we have dismissed that



lol sry couldn't help it

[thegreateski]

Mallissin wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

Mallissin wrote...

People never seem to pay attention to the story and then argue about the paragon/renegade choices.

Sovereign corrupted the heretic geth using a virus or indoctrination. Using a virus to remove it, isn't brainwashing...it's resetting.

No it's not.

That fragment of the Geth reached the conclusion that serving the Reapers was the right course of action by themselves.

Right. Saren, who was indoctrinated, was able to convince a race of logical beings, who feel no ill will against their own creators that tried to wipe them all out, that his ship (Sovereign) was their god. Afterwards, they start attacking all organics and become paranoid about the normal geth enough to plant spies.

Read between the lines.

They did not follow Sovereign or Saren by their own free will. They were indoctrinated as well.

That's dumb. Why didn't Soverign indoctrinate ALL of the Geth if he could?

It's because he can't.

Also. They were approched by and persuaded by Soverign. Not Saren.

[thegreateski]

Shandepared wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Xen:  I want to enslave all Geth because I can and because the Quarians are the Geth's rightful owners anyway.

Me:  I want to rewrite Heretic Geth because they present as they are a direct threat to the very existance of organic life.

See the difference?

-Polaris

There is no difference. The geth occupy the quarian homeworld and systems and thus are a direct threat to the quarian people.

"The geth are reclusive and secretive. This is partly due to their
synthetic nature. They have no need to interact with other races
because they do not share the same goals, needs or instincts as organic
species; they are not driven by the need for food or the drive to
reproduce. Comfort is not a concern for them, as geth ships lack
gravity, atmosphere or climate control.
According to Legion, geth do not actually live on any of the
quarian planets they conquered, and act as caretakers for them instead.
They find it more efficient to live on space stations and draw
resources from asteroids, though they maintain mobile platforms on the
worlds to clear rubble and toxins left by the Geth Uprising or as the
geth call it, the "Morning War." Legion likens this to preserving
cemeteries and memorials by humans on Earth. However, since geth do not
truly die (their memories are simply recorded) Legion speculates they
do this for the quarians who died instead."

-taken from the Mass Effect wiki