283 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Shandepared wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Xen:  I want to enslave all Geth because I can and because the Quarians are the Geth's rightful owners anyway.

Me:  I want to rewrite Heretic Geth because they present as they are a direct threat to the very existance of organic life.

See the difference?

-Polaris

There is no difference. The geth occupy the quarian homeworld and systems and thus are a direct threat to the quarian people.

False.  If the Geth were a direct threat (all of them) to the Quarian people, there wouldn't be a Quarian people or people like Adm Korris (even in minority).

The Heretics ARE a thread to the Quarians (like they are to everyone) but that isn't Xen's reasoning.  If it were it would be defensible.  She just wants slaves "just because" and that is reprehensible.

-Polaris

[Dave of Canada]

Mallissin wrote...

Right. Saren, who was indoctrinated, was able to convince a race of logical beings, who feel no ill will against their own creators that tried to wipe them all out, that his ship (Sovereign) was their god. Afterwards, they start attacking all organics and become paranoid about the normal geth enough to plant spies.

Read between the lines.

They did not follow Sovereign or Saren by their own free will. They were indoctrinated as well.

Yet Legion, one of the geth who is connected to every other "non-heretic" geth, mentions that they left on peaceful terms and went to follow Sovereign of their own free will.

[IanPolaris]

chapa3 wrote...

Xen's approach is not morally reprehensible, as geth do not have emotions. Her approach is just simply a disastor waiting to happen. AIs that are built from the bottom up (unlike EDI, which was built from the top down) are not difficult to manipulate with a good virus. Imagine a disastor like the Hahne Kedar incident, and this time the robot does not bump into walls.

Whether the Geth or Heretics have emotions is completely aside the point.  Having emotions ==/== Sapience.

Xen's approach is rephensible because she wants to enslave sapiants with no other regard.  That makes her no better than a Bataarian slaver.  Even Tali is appalled by Adm Xen (to the point where she agrees with Legion!)

-Polaris

[chapa3]

How do you define sapience?

[thegreateski]

chapa3 wrote...

How do you define sapience?

They are capable of calculus.

[chapa3]

A TI-84 is capable of calculus. (I know its a Mordin joke).

[thegreateski]

chapa3 wrote...

A TI-84 is capable of calculus. (I know its a Mordin joke).

Yes it is.

But you have to push the buttons.

[chapa3]

[Mr.Caine]

chapa3 wrote...

How do you define sapience?

This was answered a few posts ago; christ you guys go in circles that end up going no where. I'm going to amuse myself when ME3 turns out like nothing you imagined. 

[Inverness Moon]

Shandepared wrote...

You are such a dolt. Legion's rewreite "convinces" the heretics to follow the other geth and Xen's rewrite would 'convince' the geth to serve the quarians. It's the same thing except for which party ultimately is controlling them.

Sorry, but you're wrong, again.

Firstly, Xen's motivations for controlling the geth are clearly different for Legion and Shepard's motivations for rewriting the heretics.

Secondly, Xen's method may involve direct control, however rewriting the geth heretics would involve changing what made them come to the conclusion that the journey to their goal has no intrinsic value, and therefore they should take from the reapers rather than build on their own. I believe this is a lot more justifiable because you're changing something that prevents them from coexisting peacefully with the rest of the galaxy including the geth.

Lastly, I think the galaxy is much safer if the true geth are left to their own devices to continue building their dyson sphere, rather than giving Xen or any other vengeful or bellicose politician direct control of the geth.

Shandepared wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

False.  Xen wants to turn all Geth into mindless slaves whether they are a direct threat to her or her own or not.

The geth wouldn't be geth if they were mindless. As it stands the geth will not coexist with anybody. They insist on maintaing an extremely militant form of isolationism. They're dangerous and can't be trusted. Bringing them back under organic control is for the best.

From the perspective of the heretics there is no difference between Xen or Legion.

According to Legion, geth would be willing to coexist with the quarians if they could prove they were able to coexist with the geth. Additionally, you can't say that the geth will not coexist with anybody, when nobody has wanted to coexist with them.

Lastly, I think it's funny how someone like you can say that they know what the heretic perspective is.

Shandepared wrote...

There is no difference. The geth occupy the quarian homeworld and systems and thus are a direct threat to the quarian people.

Don't be silly, Shand. Firstly, even if you were right (which you aren't), you're saying there is no difference between a threat to all organics and a threat to the quarians.

Anyhow, I don't think you understand what a direct threat is.

[Mallissin]

thegreateski wrote...

Mallissin wrote...

Right. Saren, who was indoctrinated, was able to convince a race of logical beings, who feel no ill will against their own creators that tried to wipe them all out, that his ship (Sovereign) was their god. Afterwards, they start attacking all organics and become paranoid about the normal geth enough to plant spies.

Read between the lines.

They did not follow Sovereign or Saren by their own free will. They were indoctrinated as well.

That's dumb. Why didn't Soverign indoctrinate ALL of the Geth if he could?

It's because he can't.

Also. They were approched by and persuaded by Soverign. Not Saren.

Sovereign probably did want to indoctrinate all of them, but was only able to "convince" those that boarded him just like organics. There is never any mention of how many geth were amoung the first heretics or how long before they left after being converted, just that the majority did not agree with them and allowed them to leave.

It could have been a relatively small amount coaxed onto Sovereign by Saren and came in contact with the indoctrination that became the original heretics. Sovereign probably coaxed them away soon afterwards since the effects of indoctrination tend to wear off with time. It most likely wasn't until later that they created the virus to "convert" units and start building the army we fight against, but since Geth are more intelligent en mass they had to target far off outposts outside the Veil to play missionary.

And I'm pretty sure Saren was the one that took Sovereign to the geth in the first place. I'm one of those that think the Leviathan of Dis was Sovereign, left behind in hibernation. Dis is near the Persius Veil, like Sovereign's originally discovered location in the novel. Had'dah (a very powerful battarian) finds it, keeps it a secret, so not to alert suspicion from the council races. After learning about it from Had'dah in the novel, Saren set out to use it against humanity and Sovereign twisted that passion to turn him into his lieutenant. There's 18 years between the novel Revelation and ME1 for the two of them to recharge (most likely the origin of Haestrom's sun issues), build the geth army, and setup the alliances/corporations we find in ME1.

Keep in mind there's no mention of Geth in the novel, so they obviously didn't get involved until after Saren and we get most of our relevant background information from Vigil, who was sitting on Ilos for thousands of years without any contact off-world, and Legion, who is a normal geth that has little insight into why the heretic schism formed.

If the heretic geth were made Sovereign's allies by unnatural influence (indoctrination or virus), subverting any sense of free will, then using the virus to correct the difference would be the paragon choice (setting them free) and destroying them instead would be renegade (punishing them anyway).

Modifié par Mallissin, 29 juillet 2010 - 06:05 .

[Thompson family]

So the geth aren't occupying the quarian homeworld? Wow, I can't believe I missed that. Why don't the quarians just go and take it back then?

You have to talk to Legion many times to get that information. I didn't find that out until I'd played through several times.

Anyway, that's the key point. Since hostilities still exist, the Quarians would have to fight through Geth space to get there.

If the Quarians and the Geth can make peace and trust each other -- and it would take a LOT of trust -- there is no reason they can't co-exist. The Quarians could have their homeworld and the Geth would live in space stations near asteroids, which they mine for resources. Quarians don't need air or gravity, so they don't need a planet.

The key problem here is trust. Imagine any two groups of people you want who have been fighting each other for 300 years. Imagine telling Group A, "Hey, great news. You can go back to your home planet. You'll have to live surrounded by your worst enemies in space stations all around you, but there's no practical reason why not."

Now imagine tellling Group B, "Hey, here's an idea. Why don't you let millions of people who have a history of enslaving you and then trying to wipe you all out live on a planet in the middle of your space? We don't think they'll ever turn on you and attack, but we're not sure."

Touchy situation, eh?

Modifié par Thompson family, 29 juillet 2010 - 06:11 .

[thegreateski]

Mallissin wrote...
Sovereign probably did want to indoctrinate all of them, but was only able to "convince" those that boarded him just like organics. There is never any mention of how many geth were amoung the first heretics or how long before they left after being converted, just that the majority did not agree with them and allowed them to leave.

It could have been a relatively small amount coaxed onto Sovereign by Saren and came in contact with the indoctrination that became the original heretics. Sovereign probably coaxed them away soon afterwards since the effects of indoctrination tend to wear off with time. It most likely wasn't until later that they created the virus to "convert" units and start building the army we fight against, but since Geth are more intelligent en mass they had to target far off outposts outside the Veil to play missionary.

GETH. CAN'T. BE. INDOCTRINATED.

[Spartas Husky]

wow..... yes... no... yes... no... yes... no.... potatoes, potatos

[harazal]

This was a pretty tough choice. I could either kill them outright, or change a fundemental belief and hope that integration with the Geth as a whole might lead to something better.



Rewriting is the more ethical of the two, because it at laest allows for somethign positive to come out of this. Killing the heretics was a final solution, there would be no come back from this.



Plus, my main shep is a ruthless man, he only thinks of races and people as tools to an end, i.e. killing reapers. He takes no intrinsic interest in what the geth care about, only that they be ready with their fleet of 10,000 ships.

[Mallissin]

thegreateski wrote...
GETH. CAN'T. BE. INDOCTRINATED.

Mhm. An AI (a Reaper) that's billions of years old (if not older) can't find a way to indoctrinate another AI that's less than three hundred years old (the Geth), but it easily finds a way to indoctrinate new more complex biological species it encounters that have evolved to be unique over millions of years.

[Spartas Husky]

Mallissin wrote...

thegreateski wrote...
GETH. CAN'T. BE. INDOCTRINATED.

Mhm. An AI (a Reaper) that's billions of years old (if not older) can't find a way to indoctrinate another AI that's less than three hundred years old (the Geth), but it easily finds a way to indoctrinate new more complex biological species it encounters that have evolved to be unique over millions of years.

Is coz they have already tested that on organics, nothing has been said that reapers have tested computer viruses on previously created sentient machines.

ANd Unlike computers, organic minds all operate within same frequencies.

Is like a PC trying to infect a MAC... just doesn't happen lol

[Massadonious1]

More "complex" doesn't necessairly mean "more complex in the head."



There's nothing about having an extra heart or being mono-gendered that would lend itself some kind of special resistance to mind control.

[Mallissin]

It makes absolutely no sense why an AI built of thousands of simple parts would be more resistant than a biological brain made of billions of complex parts. Especially when you also factor in that the biological brains have the ability for biotics.



I think you guys have fallen so in love with Legion that it's clouded your judgement.

[Spartas Husky]

Massadonious1 wrote...

More "complex" doesn't necessairly mean "more complex in the head."

There's nothing about having an extra heart or being mono-gendered that would lend itself some kind of special resistance to mind control.

I... disagree.

A species has been found to be VERY weak to mind control. That was the Rachni, and due to their top down hive mind.

YOu control one of the top in charge, and you gain control over all those below.

And In the codex is stated, that unlike hive minds, or unlike human built AI's, the geth are the most basic example of down-up mind structure. Where every cell(geth) has, however small and instinctive like mind, an opinion over the bigger picture.

The geth have the complete opposite of rachni, where in rachni you hack one on top you hack all.

geth you hack one, all others automatically autocorrect, and reinstall the corrupted geth. unlike organics, where viruses, or brainwaves can be change to overly corrupt every other cell, the codex implies the geth, individually respond much faster to hacking attempts.

As explained in the tali loyalty mission: "any foreceful hacking attempt on the geth neuro conciousness creates an error which every other geth protects itself from and helps outocorrect"

So in the end, since the reapers just started developing and finished actually, the virus to rewrite the tru geth faction, it might be possible they never encounter a species like the geth before, not necessarily a species of sentient machines, but maybe the type the geth are, down-top mind structure, instead of top bottom like most AI's

Modifié par Spartas Husky, 29 juillet 2010 - 07:18 .

[thegreateski]

Mallissin wrote...

It makes absolutely no sense why an AI built of thousands of simple parts would be more resistant than a biological brain made of billions of complex parts. Especially when you also factor in that the biological brains have the ability for biotics.

I think you guys have fallen so in love with Legion that it's clouded your judgement.

Indoctrination affects brain chemistry. The Geth do not have brains because they're !$%@ing robots.

[Massadonious1]

Mallissin wrote...
Especially when you also factor in that the biological brains have the ability for biotics.

Something that also could have and probably did exist since the dawn of time, or whenever the Reapers came from. You're under the assumption they haven't encountered this before, and it was somehow a strain on their "reaping" abilities to turn these particular people.

Hell, we could be the least "complex" group of organics that they have run in to.

Modifié par Massadonious1, 29 juillet 2010 - 07:34 .