283 réponses à ce sujet

[Inverness Moon]

Shandepared wrote...

So what? The effect on the geth is still basically the same.

Incorrect, for reasons I already explained.

Shandepared wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

I believe this is a lot more justifiable because you're changing something that prevents them from coexisting peacefully with the rest of the galaxy including the geth.

Same if Xen rewrites them. The 'true' geth aren't exactly at peace with organics.

They're not exactly at war either. I would not be surprised if Xen ignites a war or some other conflict if she had control of the geth.

But more to the point, there is a clear difference between heretic relations with organics and the true geth relations with organics, something that becomes quite obvious when you talk to Legion. Unlike the heretics, the true geth are willing to coexist peacefully.

If I was Shepard and I learned that Xen had done something to the geth, I would find a way to reverse what she did, then immediately kill her and everyone else involved. Though I would be surprised if anything she tried to do actually worked.

Shandepared wrote...

...and if they can't prove it to a degree that it satisfies the geth the quarians don't get their homeworld back, something that keenly not in their interest.

Legion didn't say that, and that would't be an illogical course of action for the geth. Try not to make such baseless assumptions.

Shandepared wrote...

So the geth aren't occupying the quarian homeworld? Wow, I can't believe I missed that. Why don't the quarians just go and take it back then?

Honestly Shand, you're not trying hard enough to make it seem like you didn't deliberately misinterpret what I was saying.

But since I have time to waste, I'll explain again anyways.

I was not commenting on what the geth were doing to the quarian homeworld, but rather the fact that the heretics are a treat to the whole galaxy, and that there is a difference between that and only being a "direct threat" to the quarians.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 29 juillet 2010 - 07:33 .

[Jonathan Shepard]

What bothers me is that at the beginning of the mission, a Renegade Shepard wants to rewrite, and a Paragon Shepard wants to blow them all to hell. But then when you make the final choice, his opinion is somehow reversed from the original alignment. Personally, I prefer rewriting the Geth anyway, but the morality in that whole mission is so gray, that assigning any type of morality points is going to have many people upset.

[alienatedflea]

no it is the right thing to do is the rewrite them...because if you ask legion for censenus then they will tell you that the vote was 472 for rewrite and 470 to destroy them...the majority wanted to them to be rewritten...so by destroying them was a choice you alone wanted...while you had some backing in rewriting

[tmk]

I believe if you say it's ok to rewrite them in the beginning of the mission, Legion will say that rewrite is basically the same thing as convincing an organic to see things from your perspective. So I take it that rewriting them is intended to be a sort of "paragon persuade", whereas destroying the station just means "renegade nuking" them.

Now, the technical explanation of how the virus works doesn't make much sense, but then neither does the whole story of geth spontaneously becoming sentient tbh. To me it sounds like the writer wanted to make an example of how geth thinking could be influenced, but wasn't really sure what he was talking about, so the explanation ended up making the whole thing look like it means the opposite of what it was supposed to.

Modifié par tmk, 29 juillet 2010 - 01:58 .

[Thompson family]

Has anyone mentioned that Shepard knows that Heretical beliefs are false? Shepard heard that from Saren himself in ME1 on Virmire.



Saren described Sovereign's scorn for the "pitiful devotions" the Geth "hurl at it," but finds the delusion useful.



Lying about that would serve no useful purpose for Saren.



Therefore, Shepard knows something Legion doesn't. While 2 is greater than 1 and 3 is greater than 2 and both statements have equal truth value, heretical belief is a delusion.



This decision is not the clear-cut choice between death with dignity vs.mind rape that it's sometimes presented to be. It is not like a human debate between religious faiths or different philosophies arrived at through free will. The heretics are being deliberately mislead and used by an entity that will wipe out life -- including the Geth, IMHO, at the very least the non-heretical ones. I believe Saren pretty clearly indicated the Geth are goners, too. The Reapers can't afford to leave a witness civilization behind.

[EricHVela]

Nightwriter wrote...

So I take it you think rewriting the geth is the way to go?

I rewrote the geth. It seemed like it was interpretive to me whether it was paragon or renegade, but I saw it as paragon.

Given what I knew, I drew a conclusion that fit a theme of the Reapers.

They very likely "soured" the song of the Rachni. They indoctrinated many others. Why would it be any different to cause an error in Geth thinking (through transmissions, similar to biological indoctrination but for synthetics) that would propagate into their conclusion to seek the Old Gods' rewards (like Saren suggested whenever he tried to tempt Shepard)?

Since the virus was not completed until later, it is likely that the Nazara could only indoctrinate those they contacted directly (possibly with a flag of peace and knowledge and snared them to board the Old Machine or some such). The others sharing the experiences once those Geth connected to hubs would not have this tiny error and, since it was not a virus at the time, could easily still draw their own conclusions of self-determination. The way the virus affected the Geth, it sounded too much like indoctrination to me. Since it was the Nazara's technology and with the Nazara's habit of indoctrination, the original split in the Geth sounded too much like indoctrination in the same manner.

Therefor, I surmised that the new virus could be undoing the Nazara's damage.

Add to that, it is also considered Paragon for some reason. I suspected foreshadowing.

That was enough for me to choose rewriting.

Of course, there is a lot of guesswork there, and I might have a small error in my brain causing me to draw the wrong conclusions.

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 29 juillet 2010 - 02:16 .

[tmk]

Thompson family wrote...
Has anyone mentioned that Shepard knows that Heretical beliefs are false? Shepard heard that from Saren himself in ME1 on Virmire.

No because that's besides the point.

The way Legion explains how the virus works, it alters the mechanism of forming a conclusion. A human analogy is something in between intoxication and lobotomy I guess. Now I can see how using that on true geth could have helped the Reapers, but it makes no sense to expect that the virus will cause the heretics to put themselves back on the right track - because whichever way it affects them, they will NOT think like the normal geth (unless we assume that the heretics have already been "infected" and the rewrite will undo that - but that's questionable).

Therefore I conclude that Legion's explanation is incomplete or that he drew an analogy that's not correct for organics. The way it makes most sense would be if the virus can manipulate geth memories. I.e. heretics could force-implant the experiences that made them believe they are right, and remove the rest - while Legion could force them to see the situation from the "true geth" perspective.

Of course that kinda brings up the question of why they haven't downloaded that data themselves (they supposedly have freely shared data up until recently) - and how a rogue fraction could even originate in the geth collective. In other words, another case of plot idea vs logic.

Modifié par tmk, 29 juillet 2010 - 02:24 .

[Mallissin]

thegreateski wrote...
Indoctrination affects brain chemistry. The Geth do not have brains because they're !$%@ing robots.

Really? Then why does Sovereign put an implant in Saren's head when he starts to break the indoctrination? Why do the Collectors need implants as well even though they were dumb clones? The Reapers have cybernetic technology, why are you assuming they can only control biological beings?

Because you don't want to see the subtle message beneath the House Divided mission that changed the virus to being paragon and blowing them up as being renegade. Like a good writer should, they give you clues but they don't say it outright.

Massadonious1 wrote...
Hell, we could be the least "complex" group of organics that they have run in to.

LOL! I would not be surprised if that's how it plays out in ME3. Some Reaper giving us a condescending monologue about how we're stupid, aggressive monkeys easily manipulated.

[Kroesis-]

thegreateski wrote...
The Geth do not have brains because they're !$%@ing robots.

FYI. What you see as robots are merely vehicles for Geth, Geth are programs, not robots. All the reapers need to do is to introduce a subtle change to their program by way of a virus and they'll flock to believing them gods.

Modifié par Kroesis-, 29 juillet 2010 - 03:27 .

[Thompson family]

tmk wrote...

Thompson family wrote...
Has anyone mentioned that Shepard knows that Heretical beliefs are false? Shepard heard that from Saren himself in ME1 on Virmire.

No because that's besides the point.

I respectfully submit that known truth, or at least exposure of falsehood, is never besides the point.

The very prophet of the very god the heretics worship acknowledged to Shepard that the whole belief system is a lie.

You know something is a deception. Yet you choose to leave the deception in place — and kill the decieved.

I fail to see the moral high ground there.

The way Legion explains how the virus works, it alters the mechanism of forming a conclusion. A human analogy is something in between intoxication and lobotomy I guess.

There's another analogy: prescribed psychiatric drugs.

If you had a pill that would cure alcoholism or severe depression, would you destroy the formula because it interfered with the way a drunk or a would-be suicide forms a conclusion?

Now I can see how using that on true geth could have helped the Reapers, but it makes no sense to expect that the virus will cause the heretics to put themselves back on the right track - because whichever way it affects them, they will NOT think like the normal geth (unless we assume that the heretics have already been "infected" and the rewrite will undo that - but that's questionable).

It will most definitely help in at least one way to get the Heretic Geth on the right track. It will get them off a provably wrong track.

Therefore I conclude that Legion's explanation is incomplete or that he drew an analogy that's not correct ...

If we start making up stuff, along the lines of "What he meant to say was ...." then there is little point to this debate.

By rigorous internal logic, I see no need to reject Legions explanation that the virus changes a mathematical result in the Geths core run times.

Of course that kinda brings up the question of why they haven't downloaded that data themselves (they supposedly have freely shared data up until recently) - and how a rogue fraction could even originate in the geth collective. In other words, another case of plot idea vs logic.

I don't have a problem with logic leading to rogue factions because incomplete facts lead to differing conculsions if the error is made to form any conclusions from incomplete facts.

Modifié par Thompson family, 29 juillet 2010 - 03:25 .

[Mallissin]

tmk wrote...
Therefore I conclude that Legion's explanation is incomplete or that he drew an analogy that's not correct for organics..

I think the writers were intentionally vague, purposefully having Legion make you decided by saying things like "you have faught the geth and have a PERSPECTIVE we lack". It's an invitation to remember things you've heard others say about the heretic geth, including references like Thompson mentions and perhaps even events during Tali's loyalty mission or Legion's analysis of the data core from the Reaper IFF mission.



Notice he likens the area the virus attacks their runtimes as "like your nervous system", ei. our spines, and . Could also be a hint into how Reaper indoctrination overwhelms organics.

Modifié par Mallissin, 29 juillet 2010 - 03:27 .

[Inverness Moon]

Shandepared wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Incorrect, for reasons I already explained.

You haven't explained anything except that it's okay when you manipulate the geth's ability to think freely but not if Xen does it.

I've already explained that Xen's intentions are different and she wants to rewrite all geth and not just the ones that are against peaceful coexistence. Intention is an important thing here.

Additionally, I might like Xen's personality, but I wouldn't trust her with control of the geth.

Shandepared wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

But more to the point, there is a clear difference between heretic relations with organics and the true geth relations with organics, something that becomes quite obvious when you talk to Legion.

Legion is just one platform and he's friendly with a criminal organization. He's not building bridges. As long as the geth insist on remaining isolationist they're a danger. So long as the geth can't be talked to they can't be trusted and thus coexistence isn't possible. They've had three hundred years to foster good relations and they chose not to. Pity.

Fostering good relations is what Shepard is going to help them do. I would also not expect the geth to try to communicate with the quarians without understanding what got them into their situation in the first place.

Shandepared wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

If I was Shepard and I learned that Xen had done something to the geth, I would find a way to reverse what she did, then immediately kill her and everyone else involved. Though I would be surprised if anything she tried to do actually worked.

You are telling me this because?

Shandepared wrote...

Legion didn't say that, and that would't be an illogical course of action for the geth. Try not to make such baseless assumptions.

That is what he said. Sorry, kid, play the game again.

Legion did not say that the only way for the quarians to get their planet black was to coexist with the geth. Sorry kid, try harder.

Shandepared wrote...

Inverness Moonw wrote...

I was not commenting on what the geth were doing to the quarian homeworld, but rather the fact that the heretics are a treat to the whole galaxy, and that there is a difference between that and only being a "direct threat" to the quarians.

There is no difference from the quarians' perspective. The heretics shoot them on sight and prevent them from returning to their homeworld and the 'true' geth shoot them on sight and prevent them from returning to the homeworld. Both are dangerous them, most especially if Shepard recruited Legion.

The quarian perspective is incorrect, as they don't even know there are two factions of geth with different beliefs. I'm sure they'll learn the truth in ME3, especially if you have Legion in your party. His words alone would probably significantly strengthen the argument of the quarians that want peace instead of war, such as Admiral Zaal'Koris.

But anyways, the quarian perspective has nothing to do with the minor point I was making.

[tmk]

Thompson family wrote...
You know something is a deception. Yet you choose to leave the deception in place — and kill the decieved.

I choose to point out that the discussion isn't about what to do with deception. It's about whether it's "more paragon" to destroy the heretics or to (if you accept Legion's explanation verbatim) effectively mass-lobotomize them.

Thompson family wrote...
There's another analogy: prescribed psychiatric drugs.

If you had a pill that would cure alcoholism or severe depression, would you destroy the formula because it interfered with the way a drunk or a would-be suicide forms a conclusion?

It's a bad analogy because heretic geth are not alcoholics. The difference between the geth is perspective. Their "brains" work "properly", they are arriving at wrong conclusions because they're drawing them from a limited set of data. The logical solution to the problem is to supply additional data so that correct conclusion can be formed. Messing with the way conclusion is formed is a bad idea, because you don't fix something that works.

This of course implies that heretics still have original runtimes (otherwise it's only logical to use "reverse virus" on them to repair their "brain damage"). But if reverting the virus causes them to agree with the true geth, then it means they had enough data for the right conclusions all along, and it's unclear how they ended up separating themselves in the first place.

Thompson family wrote...
It will most definitely help in at least one way to get the Heretic Geth on the right track. It will get them off a provably wrong track.

By getting them on a track that is neither right nor predictable? I fail to see how it would help anything.

Thompson family wrote...
If we start making up stuff, along the lines of "What he meant to say was ...." then there is little point to this debate.

Unfortunately, in this particular case the game contradicts itself in a non-trivial way, and accepting the in-game dialogue as 100% correct requires making up even more stuff so that it starts making some sort of sense. Which tends to cause fifty-page debates about whose fanfix is more canon than the others'.

Thompson family wrote...
I don't have a problem with logic leading to rogue factions because incomplete facts lead to differing conculsions if the error is made to form any conclusions from incomplete facts.

Right. But by applying the virus you're breaking the very mechanic of how conclusions are made. Even if through sheer luck it will break their logic just right for them to arrive to the same conclusions, they still won't make the same conclusions as the normal geth from that point on because they're now thinking differently. And now there's no way to tell how they're thinking, but it's definitely not the "sane" way (i.e. the way the normal geth think).

Modifié par tmk, 29 juillet 2010 - 03:58 .

[Thompson family]

This is a good volley, tmk. I'm enjoying it. Hope you are too.

tmk wrote...

I choose to point out that the discussion isn't about what to do with deception. It's about whether it's "more paragon" to destroy the heretics or to (if you accept Legion's explanation verbatim) effectively mass-lobotomize them.

Several things I think are wrong with that argument:

First, it's hardly a mass lobotomy because, unlike a lobotomy, the rewritten Heretics will be fully functional.

Second, you cannot deem fact that the Reapers are "insulted" by the "pitiful devotions" of the heretics as an irrelevant, isolated fact. You also cannot logically disregard the fact that Shepard is in possesion of information Legion doesn't have: That the Reapers are manipulating the heretics.

Thompson family wrote...
There's another analogy: prescribed psychiatric drugs.

It's a bad analogy because heretic geth are not alcoholics. The difference between the geth is perspective.

And that difference in perspective leaves the heretics ensnared in a delusion.

Their "brains" work "properly", they are arriving at wrong conclusions because they're drawing them from a limited set of data. The logical solution to the problem is to supply additional data so that correct conclusion can be formed. Messing with the way conclusion is formed is a bad idea, because you don't fix something that works.

We can agree here. The real solution to this problem would be for Shepard to tell the Geth what Saren said and be believed, perhaps downloading an omni-tool recording of Saren's revelation on Virmire. Unfortunately, though, that not an option we have nor is it likely that the Heretic Geth will accept evidence provided by their worst enemy — Shepard. Even the Council thinks Shepard's delusional.

Thompson family wrote...
It will most definitely help in at least one way to get the Heretic Geth on the right track. It will get them off a provably wrong track.

By getting them on a track that is neither right nor predictable? I fail to see how it would help anything.

Uncertainty is the beginning of knowledge.

Thompson family wrote...
If we start making up stuff, along the lines of "What he meant to say was ...." then there is little point to this debate.

Unfortunately, in this particular case the game contradicts itself in a non-trivial way, and accepting the in-game dialogue as 100% correct requires making up even more stuff so that it starts making some sort of sense. Which tends to cause fifty-page debates about whose fanfix is more canon than the others'.

Unfortunately, there's no arguing with the fanfix debates portion of your argument. I just don't have as much logical trouble with this point as you.

Thompson family wrote...
I don't have a problem with logic leading to rogue factions because incomplete facts lead to differing conculsions if the error is made to form any conclusions from incomplete facts.

Right. But by applying the virus you're breaking the very mechanic of how conclusions are made. Even if through sheer luck it will break their logic just right for them to arrive to the same conclusions, they still won't make the same conclusions as the normal geth from that point on because they're now thinking differently. And now there's no way to tell how they're thinking, but it's definitely not the "sane" way (i.e. the way the normal geth think).

Even if that's true, I would assume that the truth about the Reapers will come out, that the Heretics can then be objectviely shown to have been decieved and any damage done can be undone by restoring their original core programming.

Modifié par Thompson family, 29 juillet 2010 - 04:40 .

[Thompson family]

On a side note, is there a transcript or video of Sovereign's "pitiful devotions" monologue somewhere? I could have sworn it was on Virmire but the Youtube videos I've seen from that mission don't include it.

Modifié par Thompson family, 29 juillet 2010 - 04:45 .

[Sparda Stonerule]

This is a simple situation. Legion proved that you can reason with the Geth. Since you can reason with them logically reformatting them is much better than destroying them. The heretics were going to use that device to make all Geth think like they do, which would mean that all Geth would worship the Reapers. However instead of killing them you bring the heretics back to the true Geth, undoing all the lies Nazara fed them. Geth are machines that came to different conclusions. The heretics accounted for less than 5% of the entire Geth. Thus they were a minority. Considering Geth are highly logical, a return of less than 5% to a particular question seems pretty substantial. Therefore following Nazara is decidedly "wrong" given Geth consensus. So in terms of morality not killing the heretics is preferable since they are still aware of things. It's more like correcting an accounting error.

[ADLegend21]

Legion even tells you brainwashing and rewriting are two different things and thinking that rewriting them is like brianwashing them is racist. it's like editting somehting on your computer, no harm no fowl.

[Thompson family]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

This is a simple situation. Legion proved that you can reason with the Geth. Since you can reason with them logically reformatting them is much better than destroying them. The heretics were going to use that device to make all Geth think like they do, which would mean that all Geth would worship the Reapers. However instead of killing them you bring the heretics back to the true Geth, undoing all the lies Nazara fed them. Geth are machines that came to different conclusions. The heretics accounted for less than 5% of the entire Geth. Thus they were a minority. Considering Geth are highly logical, a return of less than 5% to a particular question seems pretty substantial. Therefore following Nazara is decidedly "wrong" given Geth consensus. So in terms of morality not killing the heretics is preferable since they are still aware of things. It's more like correcting an accounting error.

Here's something I'd like to know: will the "brainwash," to use the critics' term, make further schism impossible, or will it just "reset" the existing heretics?

If the virus is used to make the non-heretic Geth worship the Reapers, then the Getn will "accept the logic of the old machines" and not consider alternatives any more. However, if the virus is used on heretic Geth, future generations of "unborn" Geth may yet reach differing conclusions and create scism.

The virus will dictate the future of all Geth. The counter-virus would leave the Geth with options — there own future.

Modifié par Thompson family, 29 juillet 2010 - 04:57 .

[tmk]

Thompson family wrote...
This is a good volley, tmk. I'm enjoying it. Hope you are too.

Well, I do enjoy arguing in general. I'm afraid I will have to take a break after this post though.

Thompson family wrote...
First, it's hardly a mass lobotomy because, unlike a lobotomy, the rewritten Heretics will be fully functional.

Which they can't possibly be if the virus works the way Legion describes. If it causes them to somehow reach the right conclusions from the wrong data, then there's no telling what kind of conclusions they will make when faced with the right facts, but they probably won't be correct.

Thompson family wrote...
Second, you cannot deem fact that the Reapers are "insulted" by the "pitiful devotions" of the heretics as an irrelevant, isolated fact. You also cannot logically disregard the fact that Shepard is in possesion of information Legion doesn't have: That the Reapers are manipulating the heretics.

I deem it irrelevant to the current discussion. Because it's not what people are arguing about. The point of this thread is that it's unethical to affect how the heretics' "brains" work, even with the intention of making them "see the truth". And what I'm saying is, that's not how the repurposed virus works anyways, so the points of this whole thread is kinda moot.

Thompson family wrote...
And that difference in perspective leaves the heretics ensnared in a delusion.

And "drugging" them into logics failure helps them how?

Thompson family wrote...
We can agree here. The real solution to this problem would be for Shepard to tell the Geth what Saren said and be believed, perhaps downloading an omni-tool recording of Saren's revelation on Virmire. Unfortunately, though, that not an option we have nor is it likely that the Heretic Geth will accept evidence provided by their worst enemy — Shepard. Even the Council thinks Shepard's delusional.

Here's a thought. Legion said the virus "can be re-purposed to rewrite the heretics". Technically, as far as I remember, he didn't say the re-purposed virus will affect their runtimes the same way. If we can all just agree that it would give the heretics the perspective of the true geth without modifications to their runtimes, this whole debate becomes pointless.

Thompson family wrote...

It will most definitely help in at least one way to get the Heretic Geth on the right track. It will get them off a provably wrong track.

By getting them on a track that is neither right nor predictable? I fail to see how it would help anything.

Uncertainty is the beginning of knowledge.

I'm not sure I follow.

Thompson family wrote...
Even if that's true, I would assume that the truth about the Reapers will come out, that the Heretics can then be objectviely shown to have been decieved and any damage done can be undone by restoring their original core programming.

Except how does "drugging" them help anything? I would expect them to dismiss any conclusions made using the affected runtimes, just like a human would dismiss a "bad trip". Which would mean we're pretty much at square one once their runtimes are restored.

Modifié par tmk, 29 juillet 2010 - 05:09 .

[Sparda Stonerule]

Thompson family wrote...

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

This is a simple situation. Legion proved that you can reason with the Geth. Since you can reason with them logically reformatting them is much better than destroying them. The heretics were going to use that device to make all Geth think like they do, which would mean that all Geth would worship the Reapers. However instead of killing them you bring the heretics back to the true Geth, undoing all the lies Nazara fed them. Geth are machines that came to different conclusions. The heretics accounted for less than 5% of the entire Geth. Thus they were a minority. Considering Geth are highly logical, a return of less than 5% to a particular question seems pretty substantial. Therefore following Nazara is decidedly "wrong" given Geth consensus. So in terms of morality not killing the heretics is preferable since they are still aware of things. It's more like correcting an accounting error.

Here's something I'd like to know: will the "brainwash," to use the critics' term, make further schism impossible, or will it just "reset" the existing heretics?

If the virus is used to make the non-heretic Geth worship the Reapers, then the Getn will "accept the logic of the old machines" and not consider alternatives any more. However, if the virus is used on heretic Geth, future generations of "unborn" Geth may yet reach differing conclusions and create scism.

The virus will dictate the future of all Geth. The counter-virus would leave the Geth with options — there own future.

I don't think Geth are born. I think all of their units have always existed. Geth just make platforms to do tasks. Keep in mind geth are just data modules stationed somewhere that occasionally upload their data into platforms. I think that the program was made so that the Geth just return with data the same as the True Geth. I believe that it would be possible for Geth to change their minds again if it weren't for how they work. The original split came when Geth came back with different data, however now that they will come back with the same data another split would have a non zero probability of occurring.

[Thompson family]

tmk wrote...
Well, I do enjoy arguing in general. I'm afraid I will have to take a break after this post though.

No problem. The topic's not going away. I also have to get some work done.

For now, here's what I consider the key point, which is regarding the relevance — if any — of Saren's revelation to Shepard in ME1 that the heretics are being deceived, or rather not being told the truth. This allows the heretics to pursue error to the Reapers benefit even while the Reapers hide their scorn and are "insulted" by the heretics devotion and worship:

tmk wrote...
I deem it irrelevant to the current discussion. Because it's not what people are arguing about. The point of this thread is that it's unethical to affect how the heretics' "brains" work, even with the intention of making them "see the truth". And what I'm saying is, that's not how the repurposed virus works anyways, so the points of this whole thread is kinda moot.

That argument ignores the fundamental fact that Shepard's prior experience is the core reason Legion leaves the decision on Heretic Station to Shep.

This may not be an exact quote, but it's close, from Legion:

"Shepard-Commander, you have fought the heretics. You have fought the old machines. You have a perspective that we lack."

You cannot logically dismiss Shepard's experience as irrelevant when that is the very reason Legion defaults to Shep's judgement and makes him the arbiter of the Heretic Geth's future, a decision that will affect the future of all Geth.

The "Paragon/Renegade" "value" of the decision must be weighed with consideration of the backstory in mind. It is not situational ethics to realize that the Reapers are playing the heretics for fools. Killing the Heretics for acting logically — but based on a premise that is not only wholly false  but also the product of deliberate deception — is not, to my mind, in any way a Paragon action.

To many, the mind is sacred. I understand and respect that. When a choice has to be made, however, I prefer the option that doesn't kill the heretics because they were fooled.

Modifié par Thompson family, 29 juillet 2010 - 05:57 .

[thegreateski]

Kroesis- wrote...

thegreateski wrote...
The Geth do not have brains because they're !$%@ing robots.

FYI. What you see as robots are merely vehicles for Geth, Geth are programs, not robots. All the reapers need to do is to introduce a subtle change to their program by way of a virus and they'll flock to believing them gods.

They tried that.

We destroyed the virus.

Soverign was only able to create an unfinished virus. It took the geth themselves to make the completed product.

[thegreateski]

Mallissin wrote...

thegreateski wrote...
Indoctrination affects brain chemistry. The Geth do not have brains because they're !$%@ing robots.

Really? Then why does Sovereign put an implant in Saren's head when he starts to break the indoctrination? Why do the Collectors need implants as well even though they were dumb clones? The Reapers have cybernetic technology, why are you assuming they can only control biological beings?

1. Saren was not breaking the indoctrination. The "upgades" were made so that Soverign would be able to more easily indoctrinate and control Saren in case something went wrong with his plans (Soverign taking over Saren's corpse at the end of ME1).
2. The "implants" in the collectors are there so that Harbinger can "assume control" and give them biotic abilities.
3. Because they have never been able to indoctrinate a sythetic being before and their one attempt at it was unfinished. It took the Geth themselves to finish the virus.
Keep in mind the fact that Soverign has likely been working on the virus since he first encountered the Geth and that Soverign was a being of incredible intellect and could "think" at the speed of light. It failed to finish the virus.