Developers should not be candid with interviewers. With no way of telling how facetious Zeschuck is being we wind up with threads like this.
10 million sales is BioWare's new target
Débuté par
Games4ever
, juil. 28 2010 12:50
-
Ce sujet est fermé
- Show only BioWare posts
Retour en haut
#52
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 05:19
Noir201
-
- Members
- 1 015 messages
Sorry, 10 mill not going to happen, not unless it's a fps or game people been waiting for many many years.
#53
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 05:23
Azdeus
-
- Members
- 38 messages
Just in case most people have missed it, there's a full interview aswell with more information, that more relates to DA2 aswell.
#54
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 05:51
CarlSpackler
-
- Members
- 414 messages
10 million units? Sure! What developer/publisher in their right mind wouldn’t want to move 10million units. The math is pretty simple, with console games going for $60/pop – there’s $600 million in revenue. Granted that has to be divided among the retailer, publisher, developer but when the numbers are that big there’s plenty to go around. The problem with setting 10 million as the blanket metric for video game sales is it assumes the same interest exists in every genre – which many folks in this thread have already alluded to.
At the moment, the genre with the highest number of sales is the casual market. Just look at the WII sales charts, or Facebook games. Those games have users/players through the roof. Next would be the large sports franchises, followed by successful FPSs and the GTA style games from Rockstar. GTAIV is probably the highest selling non-wii game in existence. Now after ALL of those games come the Bioware style RPGs. Their brand garners a lot of attention, and in recent years their games have/are selling well. Given the price point and the number of units sold it seems hard to imagine that these games (ME,Me2,DAO) aren’t profitable. Of course as I and others have pointed out elsewhere, profitable isn’t the metric, hitting a sales projection for stockholders have become the metric.
One way of looking at the problem is this – saying “hey Bioware repeatedly delivers quality games and as their brand and recognition of quality increases – sales will increase.” This is ostensible reasoning – to a point. Eventually Bioware will hit critical mass with the audience that like the nature of the games they develop. Once that well has been tapped though, you aren’t likely to pull gamers who do not enjoy Bioware style games into the fold. At this point they have two options, be content having at least one team (or two) to continue developing games for these gamers who have grown to love their brand and make money from these folks. Or option 2 –try and make their games look more and a more like the more lucrative games on the market. Now they may be able to achieve option 2 and get the kind of success they desire. In which case – Godspeed! However along that road they will undoubtedly continue to lose previous customers. Perhaps they will say – “well, c’est la vie, we lost 4 folks but gained 10 in their place. “ This is all well and good but the 4 folks they lost, do not play any other type of game, and their gaming dollars are lost to the industry. Where if Bioware (or some other developer) would be content to develop games for the smaller subset – there would likely be a continual supply of profit. Not to the degree of the greater budget and bigger revenue market, but profit that wouldn’t be there otherwise.
Now to relate all this to DA2 – to keep with the spirit of these forums– this relates squarely to why some of the folks are concerned about the early news of DA2. There have already been some folks who spent years on these forums who have left Bioware over these very types of changes. What concerns many of us is that there are only a handful of developers that make games we like, and if Bioware should leave the type of game development we like, well, then we don’t have anywhere else to go.
Anyways, to put in my usual caveat, I am looking forward to DA2, while unhappy with some of the decisions on new direction, none are deal-breakers for me. I hope a Bioware game never reaches that point. Apart from the few decisions I don’t like, there are some incredibly intriguing elements I can’t wait to see implemented in DA2, and I have a feeling it will be a great gaming experience. Sorry for the overly long post, cheers!
At the moment, the genre with the highest number of sales is the casual market. Just look at the WII sales charts, or Facebook games. Those games have users/players through the roof. Next would be the large sports franchises, followed by successful FPSs and the GTA style games from Rockstar. GTAIV is probably the highest selling non-wii game in existence. Now after ALL of those games come the Bioware style RPGs. Their brand garners a lot of attention, and in recent years their games have/are selling well. Given the price point and the number of units sold it seems hard to imagine that these games (ME,Me2,DAO) aren’t profitable. Of course as I and others have pointed out elsewhere, profitable isn’t the metric, hitting a sales projection for stockholders have become the metric.
One way of looking at the problem is this – saying “hey Bioware repeatedly delivers quality games and as their brand and recognition of quality increases – sales will increase.” This is ostensible reasoning – to a point. Eventually Bioware will hit critical mass with the audience that like the nature of the games they develop. Once that well has been tapped though, you aren’t likely to pull gamers who do not enjoy Bioware style games into the fold. At this point they have two options, be content having at least one team (or two) to continue developing games for these gamers who have grown to love their brand and make money from these folks. Or option 2 –try and make their games look more and a more like the more lucrative games on the market. Now they may be able to achieve option 2 and get the kind of success they desire. In which case – Godspeed! However along that road they will undoubtedly continue to lose previous customers. Perhaps they will say – “well, c’est la vie, we lost 4 folks but gained 10 in their place. “ This is all well and good but the 4 folks they lost, do not play any other type of game, and their gaming dollars are lost to the industry. Where if Bioware (or some other developer) would be content to develop games for the smaller subset – there would likely be a continual supply of profit. Not to the degree of the greater budget and bigger revenue market, but profit that wouldn’t be there otherwise.
Now to relate all this to DA2 – to keep with the spirit of these forums– this relates squarely to why some of the folks are concerned about the early news of DA2. There have already been some folks who spent years on these forums who have left Bioware over these very types of changes. What concerns many of us is that there are only a handful of developers that make games we like, and if Bioware should leave the type of game development we like, well, then we don’t have anywhere else to go.
Anyways, to put in my usual caveat, I am looking forward to DA2, while unhappy with some of the decisions on new direction, none are deal-breakers for me. I hope a Bioware game never reaches that point. Apart from the few decisions I don’t like, there are some incredibly intriguing elements I can’t wait to see implemented in DA2, and I have a feeling it will be a great gaming experience. Sorry for the overly long post, cheers!
Modifié par CarlSpackler, 28 juillet 2010 - 05:51 .
#55
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 06:43
Davasar
-
- Members
- 510 messages
Guys....read collectively the posts above. Many of the are absolutely correct.
How do you get massive sales like this? You make games for the common, casual gamer that is designed for ease of play and simplistic mechanics.
We've seen it time and time and time again.
The evidense lay in what has happened before to mass appeal products who once catered to a specific audience. My opinion and anyones else opinion doesnt matter.
History speaks for itself. Mark this moment well.
As one poster pointed out: tons of people go see Twilight movies, it doesn't mean they aren't CRAP.
How do you get massive sales like this? You make games for the common, casual gamer that is designed for ease of play and simplistic mechanics.
We've seen it time and time and time again.
The evidense lay in what has happened before to mass appeal products who once catered to a specific audience. My opinion and anyones else opinion doesnt matter.
History speaks for itself. Mark this moment well.
As one poster pointed out: tons of people go see Twilight movies, it doesn't mean they aren't CRAP.
Modifié par Davasar, 28 juillet 2010 - 06:45 .
#57
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 06:55
Amentep
-
- Members
- 75 messages
Davasar wrote...
As one poster pointed out: tons of people go see Twilight movies, it doesn't mean they aren't CRAP.
However just because no one goes to see a particular movie doesn't mean it isn't CRAP. And just because a movie does well doesn't mean its CRAP. And just because a movie is CRAP doesn't mean it will do well.
That said if Bioware makes a bunch of games that are great to play but sell like CRAP they aren't going to be selling anything. For Bioware to survive they have to look at their games, like DA2, and evaluate how they can make the games fun for the player and also something that the population of game buying public is willing the shell out money for.
#58
Guest_Kordaris_*
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 06:59
Guest_Kordaris_*
Guest_Kordaris_*
-
- Guests
Or option 2 –try and make their games look more and a more like the more lucrative games on the market
Looking at Mass Effect 2 I would say we already are past that point and decision.
#59
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 07:03
Davasar
-
- Members
- 510 messages
Amentep wrote...
Davasar wrote...
As one poster pointed out: tons of people go see Twilight movies, it doesn't mean they aren't CRAP.
However just because no one goes to see a particular movie doesn't mean it isn't CRAP. And just because a movie does well doesn't mean its CRAP. And just because a movie is CRAP doesn't mean it will do well.
That said if Bioware makes a bunch of games that are great to play but sell like CRAP they aren't going to be selling anything. For Bioware to survive they have to look at their games, like DA2, and evaluate how they can make the games fun for the player and also something that the population of game buying public is willing the shell out money for.
I agree. They should just make FPS games. Those sell well.
#60
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 07:07
Grommash94
-
- Members
- 927 messages
I think he was talking about SW:TOR in respect to the 10 million sale statement. No way DA2 could sell that many copies.
#61
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 07:13
Saibh
-
- Members
- 8 071 messages
Davasar wrote...
Guys....read collectively the posts above. Many of the are absolutely correct.
How do you get massive sales like this? You make games for the common, casual gamer that is designed for ease of play and simplistic mechanics.
We've seen it time and time and time again.
The evidense lay in what has happened before to mass appeal products who once catered to a specific audience. My opinion and anyones else opinion doesnt matter.
History speaks for itself. Mark this moment well.
As one poster pointed out: tons of people go see Twilight movies, it doesn't mean they aren't CRAP.
You spelled "evidence" wrong. Therefore, your argument is invalid.
Also, they never specified which game they want sold. In fact, judging by the article, it sounds like they want the DLC, TOR, and DA2 to all add up to be 10 million.
"10 million is the sales target BioWare is aiming to achieve with its
future releases, studio co-founder Dr. Greg Zeschuk has told
VideoGamer.com"
#62
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 07:18
Davasar
-
- Members
- 510 messages
Saibh wrote...
You spelled "evidence" wrong. Therefore, your argument is invalid.
*smack Saibh with trout*
#63
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 07:19
angj57
-
- Members
- 408 messages
I hope they aren't saying that they need 10 million sales to turn a reasonable profit; that would be kind of scary.
That's my first thought.
My second is that people shouldn't freak out just because Bioware wants to make sucessful games. And no, the path to them making massive sales is NOT just producing another first person shooter-- there is far too much competition there, and it's not an area they have experience and specialized knowledge in. The path to massive sales is to keep doing what Bioware does best, but package it with better graphics, better voice actors, better marketing, etc, which is exactly what they have been doing of late.
That's my first thought.
My second is that people shouldn't freak out just because Bioware wants to make sucessful games. And no, the path to them making massive sales is NOT just producing another first person shooter-- there is far too much competition there, and it's not an area they have experience and specialized knowledge in. The path to massive sales is to keep doing what Bioware does best, but package it with better graphics, better voice actors, better marketing, etc, which is exactly what they have been doing of late.
#64
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 07:26
HoonDing
-
- Members
- 3 012 messages
The Sims: Dark Heroic Fantasy Romance would be a better try.Khayness wrote...
Time to make a Madden game then!
On a more serious note, Myst sold 6 million units back in the day, and was the bestselling game on PC for a very long time. Any game that is ground-breaking (look at all the Wii games' huge sales numbers) or part of a huge franchise (Mario, Final Fantasy, Pokémon) sells tons.
#65
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 08:53
Haexpane
-
- Members
- 2 711 messages
And what better way to define quality than Shirtless Emo Bearded Hipsters Stripped Down Mass Effect clonesGames4ever wrote...
Quality will give big sales,remember that
:wizard:
#66
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 08:54
Haexpane
-
- Members
- 2 711 messages
Everyone being underaged dopey girls like the You Dun Goofed crowdGreenSoda wrote...
Same reason people like Michael Bay movies or the Twilight series.Games4ever wrote...
Call of Duty games can easy make over 10mil.. don't get so many people like that FPS ****
Bad movies, but everyone is watching them.
THougtful adults don't watch Michael Bay garbage or that Twightlight nonsense.Considering Bioware want's 10million units sold, we can expect
Dragon Age 3 - RISE OF THE JUSTIN BIEBER!
:wub:
:devil:
#67
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 08:59
Haexpane
-
- Members
- 2 711 messages
Kalfear wrote...
DA2 will not reach 10 mill, heck with reaction to what they announced they going to be lucky to hit 3 mill again like first game!
!
I really don't think they take the negative backlash seriously. They see the Mass Effect 2 sales and think, obviously that's what the teabagging trolls, want, so feed them.
The fact that less than HALF of the DAO fans are upset about DA2's EMO-Goth-Action Game direction is probably encouraging to them.
They'd have less negative backlash if us Hard Core Baldur's Gate 2/KOTOR/Jade Empire type fans stopped following them altogether. I suspect they think we are more trouble than we are worth.
They want the gamers who were not even born when BG2 was out.
#68
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 09:02
Games4ever
-
- Members
- 460 messages
Hate to say it, but they need naked girls to achieve10mil
#69
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 09:16
Haexpane
-
- Members
- 2 711 messages
Faust1979 wrote...
I don't see what the big problem and if some of you were running your own business you would probably start thinking differently and start trying to figure out how to make more money. It seems that some of you forget that Bioware is a business
The problem is the fundamental flaw and myth that the only way to have an economy is constant growth and expansion.
we already have a world wide recession based on the flawed premise that the economy can constantly grow.
Capitalism demands a pyramid structure. For every CEO that makes 10million a year, you need another 1000 employees doing the work.
If you have to have 1 game sell 10 million, that means more focus on sales, advertising, marketing gimmics and less focus on quality. It also means turning a Filet Mignon into a McDonald's happy meal.
Considering we have epic failure staring us in the face daily about this broken idea that you should "invest" in 401Ks and spend $800,000 on a 2bedroom home in the gangland battlefiled known as Oakland California, .. that didn't work out too well for millions and millions of people.
Ask employees of AIG and ENRON how their 401ks are doing?
EA has the same thinking, expand, grow, grow...
You can't have constant growth, unless you feed off the competitors, which would either mean LESS good Bioware games, or EA gobbles up competing DEVELOPERs and puts them to work on the Justin Biber branded
Dragon Age 3 - Shirless Werewolves vs. Shirtless Emo Bands
#70
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 09:24
Malanek
-
- Members
- 7 838 messages
What they don't need is an R18 rating.Games4ever wrote...
Hate to say it, but they need naked girls to achieve10mil
In general there is nothing wrong with them growing the base that will buy the genre. ME2 was great, many people would have been happy with it who would have never played a Bioware game before. They get into it, enjoy the story and will try out other Bioware games. Will be very interesting to see how SWTOR does.
#71
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 09:38
Games4ever
-
- Members
- 460 messages
Malanek999 wrote...
What they don't need is an R18 rating.Games4ever wrote...
Hate to say it, but they need naked girls to achieve10mil
In general there is nothing wrong with them growing the base that will buy the genre. ME2 was great, many people would have been happy with it who would have never played a Bioware game before. They get into it, enjoy the story and will try out other Bioware games. Will be very interesting to see how SWTOR does.
yeah, if they don't have nudity anyway like in the first game, then there is no reason for R18 rating, R16 will do then
#72
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 09:49
Haexpane
-
- Members
- 2 711 messages
Other notes
- Bioware cares more what IGN reviewers say than what is on the boards
- They consider most of feedback from the boards "noise"
- They think people complaining about diaper sex are "funny"
- He doesn't think anyone has a right to criticize DA2 until they play it
- He is clearly a PC first developer and doesn't think people "understand" how hard it is to port to consoles
Sounds to me he is falling into the "blame the user" trap so many developers succumb to. I deal with this every day at work as I am on the fence between business and development in my role.
In support/project mode, all the blame is placed on the user. The only blame the developers accept is for downtime/crashes.
Any design flaw or oddity is met w/ "THIS IS WHAT YOU WANTED!!!!" without the all caps and frustrated fingers pointing at long requirements docs.
I get the worst part of it, as I have to manage requirements and often develop reports based on crazy requirements that I know will not work and the users will end up thinking are pointless.
The good thing for me is it's my job to discuss this type of thing w/ the users, I can give them examples of what they asked for, so they can see firsthand why it's a terrible design.
Videogames don't have that luxury. By the time actual real life users, not fanboy testers, can get their hands on an application, it's already 90% complete.
We just launched a new application at work, DAY 2 after launch people are up in arms about the functionality "lost" and "flawed design". I ask them who their rep was on the project? Half of them don't even know, the other half say "Oh Mary Numbuts my boss, she's not very technical"
I've even had Mary Numbnuts come over to me and ask why XYZ was changed. Turns out, SHE SAT ON THE PROJECT and approved the decisions/design everything.
I wasn't even on that project, but I can bang my head on my desk all day w/ absurd complaints from people about the features THEY REQUESTED.
The best is when features get cut because the project team was on a tangent that day. I'm like, why did we remove A B and C from this other system?
"the project team decided they don't need it" but your project was for module Z, and this impacts ALL MODULES!
"yeah, they know"
Really? Wasn't it your job to talk them off that ledge? Apparently this guy doesn't think so. He thinks his job is to just collect all the crazy requirements and hand them off to the developers.
Umm, hello, what happened to ANALYZING the requirements before passing them off?
- Bioware cares more what IGN reviewers say than what is on the boards
- They consider most of feedback from the boards "noise"
- They think people complaining about diaper sex are "funny"
- He doesn't think anyone has a right to criticize DA2 until they play it
- He is clearly a PC first developer and doesn't think people "understand" how hard it is to port to consoles
Sounds to me he is falling into the "blame the user" trap so many developers succumb to. I deal with this every day at work as I am on the fence between business and development in my role.
In support/project mode, all the blame is placed on the user. The only blame the developers accept is for downtime/crashes.
Any design flaw or oddity is met w/ "THIS IS WHAT YOU WANTED!!!!" without the all caps and frustrated fingers pointing at long requirements docs.
I get the worst part of it, as I have to manage requirements and often develop reports based on crazy requirements that I know will not work and the users will end up thinking are pointless.
The good thing for me is it's my job to discuss this type of thing w/ the users, I can give them examples of what they asked for, so they can see firsthand why it's a terrible design.
Videogames don't have that luxury. By the time actual real life users, not fanboy testers, can get their hands on an application, it's already 90% complete.
We just launched a new application at work, DAY 2 after launch people are up in arms about the functionality "lost" and "flawed design". I ask them who their rep was on the project? Half of them don't even know, the other half say "Oh Mary Numbuts my boss, she's not very technical"
I've even had Mary Numbnuts come over to me and ask why XYZ was changed. Turns out, SHE SAT ON THE PROJECT and approved the decisions/design everything.
I wasn't even on that project, but I can bang my head on my desk all day w/ absurd complaints from people about the features THEY REQUESTED.
The best is when features get cut because the project team was on a tangent that day. I'm like, why did we remove A B and C from this other system?
"the project team decided they don't need it" but your project was for module Z, and this impacts ALL MODULES!
"yeah, they know"
Really? Wasn't it your job to talk them off that ledge? Apparently this guy doesn't think so. He thinks his job is to just collect all the crazy requirements and hand them off to the developers.
Umm, hello, what happened to ANALYZING the requirements before passing them off?
#73
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 09:51
Bryy_Miller
-
- Members
- 7 676 messages
thesuperdarkone wrote...
It is always EA's fault.
I'd really like to believe this is just trolling.
#74
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 10:03
fchopin
-
- Members
- 5 070 messages
Haexpane wrote...
Other notes
- Bioware cares more what IGN reviewers say than what is on the boards
- They consider most of feedback from the boards "noise"
- They think people complaining about diaper sex are "funny"
- He doesn't think anyone has a right to criticize DA2 until they play it
- He is clearly a PC first developer and doesn't think people "understand" how hard it is to port to consoles
Yes i found the above a little strange, don't understand why Bioware personnel don't care what the customers who buy the games think.
If they don't want us to post our opinions why don't they just say so.
#75
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 10:08
Saibh
-
- Members
- 8 071 messages
fchopin wrote...
Haexpane wrote...
Other notes
- Bioware cares more what IGN reviewers say than what is on the boards
- They consider most of feedback from the boards "noise"
- They think people complaining about diaper sex are "funny"
- He doesn't think anyone has a right to criticize DA2 until they play it
- He is clearly a PC first developer and doesn't think people "understand" how hard it is to port to consoles
Yes i found the above a little strange, don't understand why Bioware personnel don't care what the customers who buy the games think.
If they don't want us to post our opinions why don't they just say so.
I don't think it's that. I think that people on the internet can freely say whatever they want with pretty much no consequence. Threats of boycotts, screams of betrayal...the fans here tend to be more emotional then they would be elsewhere. If they took half of what we said in utter seriousness, I think they'd lose the will to live.
We are also a minority. By simply being here and posting regularly we probably have a stronger attachment to this game than most fans. What we want is not necessarily what everyone wants. Besides that, fans often make ridiculous and rude demands from the developers without understanding what they're really asking.
They do listen to us, if we present them well. If enough people agree, or maybe if they simply like it, they can implement it. They need not tell us that they have, either.
I always like citing Tali and Garrus' romances as two inclusions that were entirely unnecessary, but were there because we wanted them to be.
