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The Maker: Does He exist? - A critical analysis

Débuté par Guest_SirShreK_* , juil. 28 2010 05:29

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#1
Guest_SirShreK_*
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 05:29

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The most fascinating feature of the The DA Setting (known to us as TheDAs) is the Golden city. Since it is so central to the realm of Fade, it must have been built by someone with real power. Everything in the Fade changes.... But the Golden city remains constant. This points possibly to its divine origin.

Elves are the eldest known sapients to walk the land of Thedas. Since nothing that Elves built really compares to the Golden city, one may safely assume that they themselves did not build it. I have yet to come across any reference as to elven gods ever being connected to the Golden city. As a matter of fact, one can see that the Elven Gods are all of Heathen (NO disrespect meant) origin and mostly spent their lives on the earth than in the fade. The radio silence that the elves maintain on the issue is astounding. They were frequent visitors to the Fade. Their elders went there often and even claimed to have returned with newfound knowledge.... They MUST have seen something as obvious as the Golden city! I know you guys were imprisoned for centuries but c'mon Golden city is so impossible to miss in the lore! The only explanation I can give for this so frustrating oversight is that its equivalent to the Purloined letter case from the Great Poe. They don't speak of the Golden city because they do speak of it! Only with another name! They call it Arlathan. I would guess that the Arlathan on the Earth was the reflection of the Golden city on earth. The elves slept there to wake up in the Golden city.  But still they do not seem to mention that what/who created Arlathan.

The only race that offers any explanation to origin of the Golden city is Humans. Humans claim that the Golden city was the seat of the Maker, the prime creator of all. Since Elves do not offer any explanation to the origin of:

1) Fade and its Denizens (Spirits)
2) Humans, Dwarves, Qunari
3) Golden city/(Arlathan?)
4) World (The earth and Sun pre-existed in the elven lore.

- one can safely assume that Elven Gods were NOT the prime creators... They may have contributed to creation significantly, but they did not create souls, spirits and stuff. Thus if there IS a prime creator behind the World, he is NOT an elven god.

The reason for so strongly believing ina prime Creator in Thedas is of course the Golden city. This is an intelligent creation that could not have formed itself out of pure chance!

Hence a prime creator exists. HE may or may not be the Maker that Chantry worships... but if the above argument is correct, there is a central God of Thedas. You may as well start calling him the Maker.

OK

EDIT: Prime creator: He who was NOT created and created the rest or at least created the creator/s of the rest.

Modifié par SirShreK, 28 juillet 2010 - 05:36 .

#2
AlanC9
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 05:32

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Define "prime creator."

#3
Guest_SirShreK_*
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 05:35

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AlanC9 wrote...

Define "prime creator."


Thanks for asking. Adding the definition in the edit of the OP.

#4
Herr Uhl
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 05:46

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The chantry is still debating whether the maker created dwarves. I don't know about their standing when it comes to Qunari either.

#5
The Console Version is good
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 05:48

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The chantry is such a joke in Dragon age it is real hard to take them seriously, My Character is an Atheist so that might explain allot. Bahh I have no time for superstitions I have to slay the Darkspawn.

#6
Guest_SirShreK_*
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 05:50

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The Console Version is good wrote...

The chantry is such a joke in Dragon age it is real hard to take them seriously, My Character is an Atheist so that might explain allot. Bahh I have no time for superstitions I have to slay the Darkspawn.


Atheist in real world =OK
Atheist in a world of magic =Suspicious brainpower.

#7
Herr Uhl
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 05:51

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SirShreK wrote...

Atheist in real world =OK
Atheist in a world of magic =Suspicious brainpower.


So all the dwarves and Qunari are strange?

#8
Guest_SirShreK_*
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 05:53

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Herr Uhl wrote...

SirShreK wrote...

Atheist in real world =OK
Atheist in a world of magic =Suspicious brainpower.


So all the dwarves and Qunari are strange?


Just because you can't do magic, you can't make it go away. So yes. They are strange if they don't belive in Gods....

#9
The Console Version is good
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 05:57

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SirShreK wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

SirShreK wrote...

Atheist in real world =OK
Atheist in a world of magic =Suspicious brainpower.


So all the dwarves and Qunari are strange?


Just because you can't do magic, you can't make it go away. So yes. They are strange if they don't belive in Gods....


I just cant help myself, I am an atheist in the real world and Bioware gives me the decision to be an atheist so ofcourse I would take that route, I understand that there can be gods in a fantasy setting and it would make sense in this world but the very fact that the Maker is the one sole God is questionable at best.

If you play through the game it seems like there is more reason to believe he does not exist than to believe he does.

Modifié par The Console Version is good, 28 juillet 2010 - 05:57 .

#10
Herr Uhl
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 05:57

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SirShreK wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

SirShreK wrote...

Atheist in real world =OK
Atheist in a world of magic =Suspicious brainpower.


So all the dwarves and Qunari are strange?


Just because you can't do magic, you can't make it go away. So yes. They are strange if they don't belive in Gods....


So magic=gods? Why?

And for your information, Qunari can do magic. Same goes for the merry people of Rivain.

#11
Saibh
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 05:57

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SirShreK wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

SirShreK wrote...

Atheist in real world =OK
Atheist in a world of magic =Suspicious brainpower.


So all the dwarves and Qunari are strange?


Just because you can't do magic, you can't make it go away. So yes. They are strange if they don't belive in Gods....


I think Morrigan explains it well: The existence of one does not immediately grant the existence of the other. Morrigan can use magic, manipulate it, even see it. She can't see any Maker sitting on his mighty throne, nor is there evidence he is there.

In the Dark Ages and before, inexplicable things were often called upon as "magic" or power from the god(s), when nowadays we have rational explanations. Back then, how are they to know real "magic" is any different than, say, will-o-the-wisp magic? Immediately attributing magic to the Maker just serves to rationalize why it's there...that doesn't mean they're right.

Modifié par Saibh, 28 juillet 2010 - 05:58 .

#12
Guest_SirShreK_*
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 05:58

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The Console Version is good wrote...

I just cant help myself, I am an atheist in the real world and Bioware gives me the decision to be an atheist so ofcourse I would take that route, I understand that there can be gods in a fantasy setting and it would make sense in this world but the very fact that the Maker is the one sole God is questionable at best.

If you play through the game it seems like there is more reason to believe he does not exist than to believe he does.


Though your argument is correct, I stated the reason for forwarding my hypothesis above.. :)

But Yes. You are free to believe whatever you want.

#13
Ulicus
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 05:59

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SirShreK wrote...

Atheist in real world =OK
Atheist in a world of magic =Suspicious brainpower.

Uh, what? If anything, an atheist in a world full of magic can dismiss notions of a Theistic God even more easily. Any "miracle" attributed to Him can be explained away by "a mage did it", for pity's sake.

Modifié par Ulicus, 28 juillet 2010 - 06:00 .

#14
Tirigon
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 06:00

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SirShreK wrote...


The reason for so strongly believing ina prime Creator in Thedas is of course the Golden city. This is an intelligent creation that could not have formed itself out of pure chance!


BS.

The Golden City is no way more complex than what humanity has created so far.

#15
Corker
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 06:00

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Since, according the the Chantry, the Maker has abandoned his creation, does his existence even matter*? Even if he's there, he's not taking calls. An absent god is about as useful as a non-existent one.



*As a practical issue rather than a philosophical one.

#16
mousestalker
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 06:01

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The Console Version is good wrote...

I just cant help myself, I am an atheist in the real world and Bioware gives me the decision to be an atheist so ofcourse I would take that route, I understand that there can be gods in a fantasy setting and it would make sense in this world but the very fact that the Maker is the one sole God is questionable at best.

If you play through the game it seems like there is more reason to believe he does not exist than to believe he does.


It's a fantasy world. Play as it pleases you.

Just FYI though. The console version may be good. But the PC version is naughtier.

#17
The Console Version is good
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 06:01

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Forget the Maker worship the Cake! But the Cake is a lie!

#18
The Console Version is good
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 06:04

The Console Version is good
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mousestalker wrote...

The Console Version is good wrote...

I just cant help myself, I am an atheist in the real world and Bioware gives me the decision to be an atheist so ofcourse I would take that route, I understand that there can be gods in a fantasy setting and it would make sense in this world but the very fact that the Maker is the one sole God is questionable at best.

If you play through the game it seems like there is more reason to believe he does not exist than to believe he does.




Just FYI though. The console version may be good. But the PC version is naughtier.


It indeed is.

#19
MaaZeus
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 06:05

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The Console Version is good wrote...

The chantry is such a joke in Dragon age it is real hard to take them seriously, My Character is an Atheist so that might explain allot. Bahh I have no time for superstitions I have to slay the Darkspawn.



Just because chantry and generally people in it are full of **** doesnt necessarily mean that their sources are the same. Just keeping an open mind, that is all.



Golden City also fascinated me in DA universe, and still does. I really, REALLY hope this place gets explored in depth as DA games go on. Who is "Maker" and does he exist (most likely does as Spirits do aknowledge his presence)? Is he what Chantry tells you he is, or is he something else? What is his connection to the Golden/Black City? What is his connection to Darkspawn, if any? So many questions to satisfy!

Modifié par MaaZeus, 28 juillet 2010 - 06:06 .

#20
Guest_SirShreK_*
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 06:06

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Herr Uhl wrote...
Just because you can't do magic, you can't make it go away. So yes. They are strange if they don't belive in Gods....


So magic=gods? Why?

And for your information, Qunari can do magic. Same goes for the merry people of Rivain.


I found out the Qunari doing magic in the most humiliating manner so yes I know that. I was talking of the Dwarves.

Modifié par SirShreK, 28 juillet 2010 - 06:09 .

#21
Guest_SirShreK_*
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 06:07

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Corker wrote...

Since, according the the Chantry, the Maker has abandoned his creation, does his existence even matter*? Even if he's there, he's not taking calls. An absent god is about as useful as a non-existent one.

*As a practical issue rather than a philosophical one.


May or may not. The article simply debates His existance and not His role.

Modifié par SirShreK, 28 juillet 2010 - 06:07 .

#22
Saibh
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 06:08

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Corker wrote...

Since, according the the Chantry, the Maker has abandoned his creation, does his existence even matter*? Even if he's there, he's not taking calls. An absent god is about as useful as a non-existent one.

*As a practical issue rather than a philosophical one.


Actually, I really like that the Chantry claims abandonment. It gives them a reason to worship a god who does nothing for them. It explains human misery, the evils in the world, and why the oh-so-benevolent Maker doesn't help. They need to pray to earn his forgiveness, thus accounting for the worship.

#23
Guest_SirShreK_*
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 06:09

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Saibh wrote...

I think Morrigan explains it well: The existence of one does not immediately grant the existence of the other. Morrigan can use magic, manipulate it, even see it. She can't see any Maker sitting on his mighty throne, nor is there evidence he is there.

In the Dark Ages and before, inexplicable things were often called upon as "magic" or power from the god(s), when nowadays we have rational explanations. Back then, how are they to know real "magic" is any different than, say, will-o-the-wisp magic? Immediately attributing magic to the Maker just serves to rationalize why it's there...that doesn't mean they're right.


Morrigan is acting Utilaterian, thats all. She does not contradict the presence of maker. The argument above is IN absence of presence of magic.

#24
Guest_SirShreK_*
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 06:10

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Ulicus wrote...

SirShreK wrote...

Atheist in real world =OK
Atheist in a world of magic =Suspicious brainpower.

Uh, what? If anything, an atheist in a world full of magic can dismiss notions of a Theistic God even more easily. Any "miracle" attributed to Him can be explained away by "a mage did it", for pity's sake.


Thats a problem with Atheists. I don't care if they listen to the reason in the post or Not.

#25
Guest_SirShreK_*
Posté 28 juillet 2010 - 06:11

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Tirigon wrote...

SirShreK wrote...


The reason for so strongly believing ina prime Creator in Thedas is of course the Golden city. This is an intelligent creation that could not have formed itself out of pure chance!


BS.

The Golden City is no way more complex than what humanity has created so far.


Really? Let me know next time you see something as unchanging in the Fade,
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