224 réponses à ce sujet

[Rubbish Hero]

The maker is Sauron, read the book.

[MaaZeus]

SirShreK wrote...

Saibh wrote...

I think Morrigan explains it well: The existence of one does not immediately grant the existence of the other. Morrigan can use magic, manipulate it, even see it. She can't see any Maker sitting on his mighty throne, nor is there evidence he is there.

In the Dark Ages and before, inexplicable things were often called upon as "magic" or power from the god(s), when nowadays we have rational explanations. Back then, how are they to know real "magic" is any different than, say, will-o-the-wisp magic? Immediately attributing magic to the Maker just serves to rationalize why it's there...that doesn't mean they're right.

Morrigan is acting Utilaterian, thats all. She does not contradict the presence of maker. The argument above is IN absence of presence of magic.

Indeed. I think she is simply not giving a damn. If the Maker doesnt exist, it doesnt bother her and she lives on. If he does, why she should care?

[Herr Uhl]

SirShreK wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

So magic=gods? Why?

And for your information, Qunari can do magic. Same goes for the merry people of Rivain.

I found out the Qunari doing magic in the most humiliating manner so yes I know that. I was talking of the Dwarves.

Their fashion of magic makes their viewpoint invalid? How about the Riviani then?

Edit: I'm keeping this up since you previously stated that you have to be dumb to believe that there are no gods.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 28 juillet 2010 - 06:23 .

[Arttis]

The maker is not real.

The reason is there is only the idea of a maker.

Till there is more he is not real.

So far all events in DA has shown nothing pointing towards the maker.

As the writers would want.Keeping everything vague.

[Daewan]

As far as you know.

[KethWolfheart]

SirShreK wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

SirShreK wrote...

Atheist in real world =OK
Atheist in a world of magic =Suspicious brainpower.

So all the dwarves and Qunari are strange?

Just because you can't do magic, you can't make it go away. So yes. They are strange if they don't belive in Gods....

Why in the world would having magic mandate having gods???  Magic could just be another fundamental aspect of the universe in this world, just like gravity, weak/strong nuclear forces, etc.  Having magic in no way implies there is a god(s).

The fact that the chantry have to even debate if the maker made the dwarves indicates how the entire religion is fabircated pretty much by humans.

[Saibh]

SirShreK wrote...

Saibh wrote...

I think Morrigan explains it well: The existence of one does not immediately grant the existence of the other. Morrigan can use magic, manipulate it, even see it. She can't see any Maker sitting on his mighty throne, nor is there evidence he is there.

In the Dark Ages and before, inexplicable things were often called upon as "magic" or power from the god(s), when nowadays we have rational explanations. Back then, how are they to know real "magic" is any different than, say, will-o-the-wisp magic? Immediately attributing magic to the Maker just serves to rationalize why it's there...that doesn't mean they're right.

Morrigan is acting Utilaterian, thats all. She does not contradict the presence of maker. The argument above is IN absence of presence of magic.

Morrigan doesn't believe in the Maker. In fact, she speaks with a certain amount of venom if he did exist ("Then I would wonder why He has abandoned His creation. It seems terribly irresponsible of Him.") Anyway, my point is, is that you can't say "well one exists" and then claim the other does to. Again, magic is usuable by the Avvars and the qunari who developed religion (or lack thereof) without the Maker.

Elves are the eldest known sapients to walk the land of Thedas.
Since nothing that Elves built really compares to the Golden city, one
may safely assume that they themselves did not build it.

And you know this...how? Everything we heard about the elves indicates that they had a pretty advanced (if stagnated) culture. The ruins we do see seem grander than anything Ferelden has.

As for not seeing a mention of the Golden City, the elves themselves have lost much of their culture, and we never learn much about the bit they do know, anyway. At one point, they could have had plenty to explain everything. They may not anymore.

Your entire argument stems on "there is magic, there is a Golden City, we can't explain it, there must be a god".

[Herr Uhl]

imported_beer wrote...

The Maker exists.

I hope all you non-believers are forced to smecks rage demons on a daily basis when you pass on to the fade.

...what does MobyGames have to do with this?

[Arttis]

SirShreK wrote...

Arttis wrote...

The maker is not real.
The reason is there is only the idea of a maker.
Till there is more he is not real.
So far all events in DA has shown nothing pointing towards the maker.
As the writers would want.Keeping everything vague.

Err.. Did you read th OP?

Nothing is solid regarding gods in DA.
Not even elven lore as much of it is lost.Also Having elves trying to relearn their language might leave room for error in interpretations.

I did not exactly read more skim....

[KethWolfheart]

Your entire argument stems on "there is magic, there is a Golden City, we can't explain it, there must be a god".

Exactly. Smacks of our own world. Oh something is unexplainable - that *must* mean there is a god. Having read the OP post a few times I see no proof what so ever that there is any credence to their being a Maker in any way.



The OP's theories are as valid as the Chantries ... in other words it is based on belief not fact.

[Daerog]

Rubbish Hero wrote...

The maker is Sauron, read the book.

No, no, no, no.

Morgoth is The Maker, he is just in the Door of Night and can't take calls at the moment until he can destroy the Sun.

Sauron is just his prophet, who took the form of a female barbarian mage named Andraste.

Actually, I'm liking the Chantry considering the way things are; however, The Imperial Chantry will dominate when the Tevinter Imperium rises again.

[MaaZeus]

Saibh wrote...

Morrigan doesn't believe in the Maker. In fact, she speaks with a certain amount of venom if he did exist ("Then I would wonder why He has abandoned His creation. It seems terribly irresponsible of Him.")

Indeed. But does she know Makers true motives why he abandoned his creation, if he exists at all or if he abandoned it willingly in the first place? Only thing she does is stating her opinion in rather arrogant fashion based on thing she knows so far. Problem is that she doesnt know the whole story, nobody does in the game world and neither do us gamers. Thats why I am so curious about this all, what the hell is up with Maker, Chantry and Golden City? Sounds like an interesting tale to me.

Modifié par MaaZeus, 28 juillet 2010 - 06:29 .

[Svest]

You are making some pretty big leaps of logic to come to your conclusion. The existence of magic does not necessarily require the existence of a "prime creator." It could simply be yet another force of nature. Also, the existence of the Black/Golden City doesn't require a "prime creator" of the universe either. Sure you can argue that the Black City itself is not natural and required a creator. Even that it required a being(s) of incredible power to create. However, even assuming that you are correct that the Black City was created and not just a natural phenomenon you cannot make the leap to say that the same being who created it also created the universe, or even that the universe was created by anyone.

[Herr Uhl]

SirShreK wrote...

For all those saying that Magic is a fundamental feature of ANY setting: Kindly define Magic.

Define light.

[DaySeeker]

Well (s)he is the maker and not the "sticker-arounder- who particpates-in-puny-liveser" I hope the maker is never proven or disproven so people can be responsible for their own, lives, choices, and consequences and there is no god to punish or save them.



I am curious about other belief systems in the DA world. Dwarves seem to have ancestor worship that also has turned into something more political than theological. Eleves have their gods, but must be pretty annoyed or disappointed in them. Do humans have anything besides The Maker and Not the Maker?

[Daerog]

DaySeeker wrote...

Do humans have anything besides The Maker and Not the Maker?

Avvars have their own pantheon, many Rivians have an animism belief (or something about nature), some follow the Qun, etc.

Edit: Animism, not animalism, sheesh, I messed up on that one.

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 28 juillet 2010 - 06:37 .

[Arttis]

I define magic as the biological feature that allows control over matter.How that is possible?No idea.

[MaaZeus]

Svest wrote...

You are making some pretty big leaps of logic to come to your conclusion. The existence of magic does not necessarily require the existence of a "prime creator." It could simply be yet another force of nature. Also, the existence of the Black/Golden City doesn't require a "prime creator" of the universe either. Sure you can argue that the Black City itself is not natural and required a creator. Even that it required a being(s) of incredible power to create. However, even assuming that you are correct that the Black City was created and not just a natural phenomenon you cannot make the leap to say that the same being who created it also created the universe, or even that the universe was created by anyone.

I agree as much as I am on the "Makers side". On real world true magic is definetly something supernatural, but in a game world like this it most likely is nothing more that rare ability to control energy and matter. Existence of magic IN A GAME does not explain the existence of higher power alone, again in a game.

Modifié par MaaZeus, 28 juillet 2010 - 06:39 .