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[Herr Uhl]

Corker wrote...

Nobody ever heard of the Maker before Andraste, yes?  Seems like his existence must not be so self-obvious if the Tevinters didn't see it for a thousand years.

Well, she did not invent the maker.

[Saibh]

SirShreK wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
But you are saying that since we don't have an explanation about what magic is, it is stupid not to believe in a deity.

THIS. Now you see what I am saying?

You're coming off as a Jesus person. Maker person. I have no idea why you're so fixated on there being a Maker, but the writers have deliberately left it up to us. All of your arguments--every single one--is devoted to "I can't explain it, must be a god".

You can counter said argument with "I can't explain, doesn't have to be a god". What if we had confirmation in the DAO world that there isn't any Maker, but there is magic? Would you shout bull****? Would you say in this fantasy setting, concerning fantastical elements that don't exist in real life, your rules surrounding what should and shouldn't be are still right?

It's completely plausible to make a world in which there is magic, but no god. I can do it right now, in my head. DAO is not real life. It doesn't have rules that extend beyond the people experiencing it. There is a god or there isn't, so sayeth the Developers. They're just leaving it ambiguous for us.

EDIT: As a final note, how is magic any more mystical than an invisible god in the sky who created in the first place? It doesn't need an origin, any more than that god would.

Modifié par Saibh, 28 juillet 2010 - 06:59 .

[Svest]

SirShreK wrote...

Svest wrote..

may != must

Either/Or.

Again, even if it meant "Either dieties or other spirits" the "or other spirits" part specifically shows that its possible without a diety. 

[DaneWolf]

I don't HOPE the maker exist since I've gone verry bad guy (or should I say girl in Dragon age.) Everytime someone say something about the maker I can't help but insult them in the game. So.... I don't know... I'm not hoping he exists!!!

[JergenKajaton]

Despite being an atheist in the real world, I have no trouble at all accepting the existence of gods in Thedas. It seems almost inevitable, actually. Spirits clearly exist in Thedas. They vary in power. It's not inconceivable that some spirits are powerful enough to warrant the label "gods". It's even conceivable that at least one spirit is powerful enough to create the Golden/Black City and maintain its unchanging state. The Chantry has labeled this powerful spirit "The Maker", and believes it to be a theistic creator god.

I tend to think that the Maker exists, but is not the theistic creator god that the Chantry thinks he is. He's merely an extremely powerful Fade spirit (of course, there's nothing "mere" about a Fade spirit that powerful, but I couldn't think of any other word to use in that sentence).

But of course, we won't know for sure until/unless the writers tell us.

[Daerog]

Corker wrote...

One expects the Tevinter Imperium had thoughts on the nature of the Golden City.  Do we know if they attributed it to the Old Gods?  The Old Gods clearly exist(ed), but as five of them have been incarnated as Archdemons and killed, the nature of their divinity seems... suspect.  Certainly not in the "three O's" form that's usually used.

But no reason they couldn't build a Golden City.

Nobody ever heard of the Maker before Andraste, yes?  Seems like his existence must not be so self-obvious if the Tevinters didn't see it for a thousand years.

No, sorry, I think you got information mixed up. The Maker was heard of before Andraste and the Old Gods. It is believed that the Tevinter Imperium connected the Old Gods imprisonment with the Maker, and so went to the Fade to remove the Maker and free the Old Gods. That is what the Chantry says, whether true or not, but it seems the followers of the Old Gods dismissed the Maker as the Old Gods seemed to actually be active in the lives of the Imperial citizens, or at least the magisters.

[Arttis]

The maker is really an alien who crafted us to be cheap slave labor but one thing lead to another and we fled and forgotten it all.

[Svest]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Well, there is the Spirit Healer specialization, which calls on the spirits of the Fade to intercede in the world in order to heal/revive party members. There are spirits, but that doesn't prove the Maker. However, I like to have my Warden be a believer.

Nothing wrong with being a believer.  A believer is someone who has faith.  Faith requires that you don't know for certain, otherwise its knowledge not faith. 

I'm not trying to disprove the Maker.  More saying that attempts to prove his existence are a waste of time and pointing out flaws in logic people are using as "proof."

[Corker]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Corker wrote...

Nobody ever heard of the Maker before Andraste, yes?  Seems like his existence must not be so self-obvious if the Tevinters didn't see it for a thousand years.

Well, she did not invent the maker.

She didn't?  I'll have to reread the Codex.  I thought the Chantry's timeline was something like:

Maker makes humans
Old Gods get humans to forget Maker
Maker stomps off in a huff
Old Gods get Tevinters to sneak into the Golden City with some spraypaint to tag it
Maker tells those kids to get off his lawn, turns them into darkspawn
Darkspawn find Old God and tag it instead.  First Blight.
Andraste gets a vision which tells her all about this Maker that everyone else had forgotten.
Maker gives humanity another chance.
Can you hear the people sing, singing the songs of angry men?
Andraste is killed.  
Maker storms off again.
Chantry starts holding boombox under his window in the rain.

Buuuut I admit to not having read the Chantry entries in detail since my first runthrough.

[Grommash94]

'Shrugs' I thought it was left ambiguous. I would argue that the Maker exists in some form...like a powerful fade spirit/demon whose realm was the Golden City and/or contacted Andraste some how....but, there is no real proof that an omniscient/omnipotent God exists in the Dragon Age universe. It isn't like LOTR or the Wheel of Time....which has its pros and cons, I suppose.

[Corker]

Arttis wrote...

The maker is really an alien who crafted us to be cheap slave labor but one thing lead to another and we fled and forgotten it all.

No, no, that's Theah, not Thedas.

[Herr Uhl]

Corker wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Corker wrote...

Nobody ever heard of the Maker before Andraste, yes?  Seems like his existence must not be so self-obvious if the Tevinters didn't see it for a thousand years.

Well, she did not invent the maker.

She didn't?  I'll have to reread the Codex.  I thought the Chantry's timeline was something like:

Maker makes humans
Old Gods get humans to forget Maker
Maker stomps off in a huff
Old Gods get Tevinters to sneak into the Golden City with some spraypaint to tag it
Maker tells those kids to get off his lawn, turns them into darkspawn
Darkspawn find Old God and tag it instead.  First Blight.
Andraste gets a vision which tells her all about this Maker that everyone else had forgotten.
Maker gives humanity another chance.
Can you hear the people sing, singing the songs of angry men?
Andraste is killed.  
Maker storms off again.
Chantry starts holding boombox under his window in the rain.

Buuuut I admit to not having read the Chantry entries in detail since my first runthrough.

I point you to this post by David Gaider. It does contain spoilers though.

[Daerog]

Svest wrote...

I'm not trying to disprove the Maker.  More saying that attempts to prove his existence are a waste of time and pointing out flaws in logic people are using as "proof."

Awww, but theology is fun, fantasy world or real world. Honestly, I want the writers to have the next hero(es) to visit the Fade encounter a powerful wolf spirit (who can turn into looking like an elf to talk) who helps/confuses them, just to throw another issue into the theological discussions on Thedas.
"Hey, look, 'proof' of the Creators! Amirite?" /begin thread.

[KethWolfheart]

SirShreK wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Copy/paste from Wikipedia search of Magic.

Magic may refer to:

Magic (paranormal), the use of supernatural methods to manipulate natural forces, such as witchcraft
Religious magic, which may involve the intercession of deities or other spirits, such as prayer

THIS.

EDIT: I am surprised this is neglected so slightly!

This means absoltely nothing.  This is an earth definition, how we define magic in our own world - which doesn't apply to another world, nor does it even mean that it is correct for our own world.

Magic could easily just be another force in nature (here or in some fantasy world) that has yet to be explained.  Much of todays science would be "magic" in the past afterall.

Assuming that magic is the reason there has to be a god(s) is extremely poor and faulty logic.  One would think a person of science would know that better than anyone.

[Svest]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Awww, but theology is fun, fantasy world or real world. Honestly, I want the writers to have the next hero(es) to visit the Fade encounter a powerful wolf spirit (who can turn into looking like an elf to talk) who helps/confuses them, just to throw another issue into the theological discussions on Thedas.
"Hey, look, 'proof' of the Creators! Amirite?" /begin thread.

Just because something is a waste of time doesn't mean it can't be a fun waste of time.  It just means that nothing productive will result from it.  I would call reading these forums or even playing video games a waste of time, luckily I have time to waste.

So you feel free to keep having a theological debate and I'll keep pointing out flaws in logic.  Both of which are equal wastes of time, but fun just the same.

Modifié par Svest, 28 juillet 2010 - 07:16 .

[Arttis]

SirShreK wrote...

Arttis wrote...

The maker is really an alien who crafted us to be cheap slave labor but one thing lead to another and we fled and forgotten it all.

And Thedas stands on the back of a tortoise that stands on the back of another and so on and so forth... (Maker Forbid, but could be true )

The aleins used an orb to control us and when we fled we took one with us.ANdraste found it and started her campaign.
Oh how much this can explain!

[Corker]

KethWolfheart wrote...

Magic could easily just be another force in nature (here or in some fantasy world) that has yet to be explained.  Much of todays science would be "magic" in the past afterall.

Nnnnot really, no.  At least, not to anyone who'd 'studied at Toledo.'  Maybe to a layperson, but anyone who actually took their sorcery seriously would see a load of differences between a technological artifact and what they were trying to accomplish.

But the practice of magic in our world is so totally different from most fantasy worlds, where it really is more of a science and not really magic at all.  "If I do A, then B happens." 

Sorry.  Sideline hobby in the study of medieval and Renaissance magic.  It's really awesome and nothing at all like what we get in our modern fiction.

[Saibh]

SirShreK wrote...

Svest wrote...

So you feel free to keep having a theological debate and I'll keep pointing out flaws in logic.  Both of which are equal wastes of time, but fun just the same.

This is really not a theological debate of plebian nature. If you tried to debate against Gods in real world I would join you. I f tried to debate against Gods in a setting with Magic, I would oppose you...

Okay.

I just made up a world.

There is magic.

There is no gods.

What say you? Because it's very very possible that one exists without the other.