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[Arttis]

Magic is about being able to manipulate everything.

SO far magic seems limitless.

You can enslave demons if your power is strong enough.

[Grommash94]

Don't really think the use of magic necessarily means there is an all powerful God in Thedas. We already know that there is no such thing as 'divine' magic, and that magic has been used even by those who never believed in the Maker.

[KethWolfheart]

Corker wrote...

KethWolfheart wrote...

Magic could easily just be another force in nature (here or in some fantasy world) that has yet to be explained.  Much of todays science would be "magic" in the past afterall.

Nnnnot really, no.  At least, not to anyone who'd 'studied at Toledo.'  Maybe to a layperson, but anyone who actually took their sorcery seriously would see a load of differences between a technological artifact and what they were trying to accomplish.

But the practice of magic in our world is so totally different from most fantasy worlds, where it really is more of a science and not really magic at all.  "If I do A, then B happens." 

Sorry.  Sideline hobby in the study of medieval and Renaissance magic.  It's really awesome and nothing at all like what we get in our modern fiction.

Hmm I bet that would be a great hobby!  I love mythology and medieval history, although my current area of study is mythology.

I guess I was just thinking of the superstistious native sterotype.  Oh look light from a stick (flashlight) as just one example.  We know it isn't magic - but for someone who knows nothing of science it could very well appear to be magic.

In relation to the Maker - I am not sure one way or the other personally.  My contention is the foolish idea that magic mandates the existence of a god, becuase there is no reason it should.  There is no proof to such a hypothesis nor even a good logical proof.  Pretty much as Morrigan pointed out (and others have mentioned).  Regardless the whole "magic=god" equation is as good of a theory as just saying "I believe in the Maker so it must be so".  In other words "I believe that magic means there must be a god so it must be so".

As for the other discussions on the Maker - some good points. 

Modifié par KethWolfheart, 28 juillet 2010 - 07:29 .

[Daerog]

SirShreK wrote...

As I said: Gnomes built the Golden city.

Lies! I made the Golden City, and those blasted Magisters forgot to wipe their feet when they entered! A blight on the world with no sense of manners!

[Svest]

SirShreK wrote...

Svest wrote...

So you feel free to keep having a theological debate and I'll keep pointing out flaws in logic.  Both of which are equal wastes of time, but fun just the same.

This is really not a theological debate of plebian nature. If you tried to debate against Gods in real world I would join you. I f tried to debate against Gods in a setting with Magic, I would oppose you...

Again, the existance of magic does not automatically require the existance of a creator diety.  Even if said magic originated from powerful spirits, even if those spirits are worshiped as gods, you cannot make the logical leap to a creator. 

Of course, the assumption that magic must come from a mystical spirit of some sort is illogical too.  It could easily be explained by a natural force.  You say that magic is making the impossible happen.  I would agree with you to a certain extent.  Magic is a force that allows things that would be impossible in the real world to happen, they are obviously not impossible in the fantasy world.  Maybe in Thedas there are 5 basic forces, strong, weak, EM, gravity, and "magic."  A mage is just someone who has learned how to harness this fifth force, much in the same way I can use a magnet to move something in the real world.  Just because you can't explain magic does not mean "god did it."

[Grommash94]

Herr Uhl wrote...


I point you to this post by David Gaider. It does contain spoilers though.

Very interesting.

[JergenKajaton]

Sandal is the Maker. And if you ask him how he created the universe, he'll explain it in one word.

[Arttis]

Grommash94 wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...


I point you to this post by David Gaider. It does contain spoilers though.

Very interesting.

Spoilers be damned!
I am posting it.

David Gaider:

The cult of the Old Gods (I don't call it "the Tevinter religion"
mainly because that, to me, speaks of the Imperial Chantry -- which is
based in today's Tevinter Imperium) didn't contradict the existence of
the Maker. Quite the opposite. The people of ancient Tevinter were
aware of the existence of the Golden City and ascribed to "the Maker"
(though this Creator was not called this until the appearance of the
Chantry) the creation of the world. The Old Gods were not creators,
though they were supposedly also not created. The Old Gods were outside
of the Creator's Plan and showed up to whisper to mankind and teach
them magic. According to the Chantry, they turned mankind away from
their regard for a remote Creator (who ruled remotely and never
interacted with his own creations) and that this is what made the
Creator abandon the Golden City... though there is argument that the
cult believed the Creator had abandoned it long before and that they
were adrift, rescued by the Old Gods. Modern sages say that this is
attempt to explain the hardships that the early human civilizations
faced, and not evidence of the Maker actually being absent.

So when Andraste showed up much, much later, she was advocating a return to the "rightful" worship of the Maker... it was not a belief that came out of nowhere.

As
for the elves, their understanding of their own religion is incomplete.
The whole truth was lost along with Arlathan and their immortality --
much of their lore was kept by a tradition of apprenticeship, handed
down from the knowledgeable to the young, and this relied on the fact
that the knowledgeable were eternal. Slaves also had less opportunity
to spread their lore, so the sudden aging of the knowledgeable meant
that much of this information was simply gone after several
generations. This, of course, is their belief: the ancient Imperium
maintained that the elves were never immortal to begin with, and that
their lore was lost simply because the Imperium forbade its teaching.

Even so, the ancient elves did write
things down, and so some scraps have been recovered. Thus the Dalish
have slowly reassembled a religion from those pieces of lore, though
how complete it is cannot be known. Even so, a few things are factual.
For one, the original elven religion predates the cult of the Old Gods
by a long time. Could the Old
Gods have been based on the elven gods? Possibly, but there's nothing
to suggest the elven gods were ever dragons, and certainly the contempt
the Imperium held for elven culture makes it unlikely that they would
think elven gods were worth worshipping. Consider also that it was the
Old Gods that taught humanity its magic and encouraged them to destroy
Arlathan -- why would elven gods do this? One could point to the
Forgotten Ones (look at the codex entry on Fen'Harel for their mention)
and suggest that they had reason for vengeance, though that would
probably be against Fen'Harel and their good brethren and not against
the elven people themselves, no? Still, all of that depends on how much
of the knowledge given by Dalish tales is complete.

In terms of
the elven religion's view of the Maker (or lack thereof), it might be
interesting to point out that the elven creation myth doesn't stem from
their gods. According to Dalish understanding, Elgar'nan and Mythal,
the Father and the Mother, did not create the world. They were born of the
world. The world was always there, and while it doesn't indicate the
presence of a single creator that made the world it also doesn't
necessarily contradict it.

The modern Chantry, however, does say
that all these other gods are false. It doesn't say they never existed
(though the elven legends are dismissed as just that, for the most
part, but that's a carry-over of Imperial belief), but merely suggests
that the Maker was long ago forgotten and that He is the only god that
is worthy of true worship. The fact that His creations turned away from
Him is shameful, and it is only by proving our worth to Him once again
that the world will become the paradise He intended.

All of this
is, of course, open to interpretation. That's part of the point of
faith, if you ask me. Were some god to appear on earth and tell
everyone How It Really Is that would destroy the very idea of faith --
though at that point one would have to ask: is such a being really a
god? What is a god? What ideas are really worth worship? To me, that's the notion that's worth exploring. Beyond that, all conjecture is welcome. ../../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png

[Grommash94]

Svest wrote...

Again, the existance of magic does not automatically require the existance of a creator diety.  Even if said magic originated from powerful spirits, even if those spirits are worshiped as gods, you cannot make the logical leap to a creator. 

Of course, the assumption that magic must come from a mystical spirit of some sort is illogical too.  It could easily be explained by a natural force.  You say that magic is making the impossible happen.  I would agree with you to a certain extent.  Magic is a force that allows things that would be impossible in the real world to happen, they are obviously not impossible in the fantasy world.  Maybe in Thedas there are 5 basic forces, strong, weak, EM, gravity, and "magic."  A mage is just someone who has learned how to harness this fifth force, much in the same way I can use a magnet to move something in the real world.  Just because you can't explain magic does not mean "god did it."

I don't think so. Magic isn't really something that one can learn...you are either born with it, or not. I also believe that it is a fact that Magic comes from the Fade.

[Svest]

SirShreK wrote...

The definition of Magic I made was para-universal.

Then define impossible in a para-universal sense.  Just because something is impossible in the real world doesn't mean its impossible in another universe.  A different universe can have different physical laws governing it.  Change these laws and what is possible and impossible also changes.  Things that are impossible in one world can be common in another.

[Daerog]

Arttis wrote...

Spoilers be damned!
I am posting it.

David Gaider:

*snip*

Ugh... the Dalish elf culture seems so pathetic. The Archon probably has all of elven history written down and stored somewhere in Minrathous and is laughing his ass off.

[Svest]

Grommash94 wrote...

I don't think so. Magic isn't really something that one can learn...you are either born with it, or not. I also believe that it is a fact that Magic comes from the Fade.

Yes, birth determines if they have any ability to manipulate the magical force at all, but they still have to learn how to do it to be a proper mage. 

[Arttis]

Templars might have magic aswell as spirit warriors...and who knows what else.

So everything can control magic!Magic is everything!Some can do it better than others!

For if everything was *created* it must be magic as magic is the only thing that truly creates!

[Grommash94]

Svest wrote...

Grommash94 wrote...

I don't think so. Magic isn't really something that one can learn...you are either born with it, or not. I also believe that it is a fact that Magic comes from the Fade.

Yes, birth determines if they have any ability to manipulate the magical force at all, but they still have to learn how to do it to be a proper mage. 

I don't know. There could be a few parents who didn't want to have their magic-gifted children taken from them, so hid them away. What if those sort of children taught themselves? Obviously they would have to be gifted, but still.

[Grommash94]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Arttis wrote...

Spoilers be damned!
I am posting it.

David Gaider:

*snip*

Ugh... the Dalish elf culture seems so pathetic. The Archon probably has all of elven history written down and stored somewhere in Minrathous and is laughing his ass off.

Honestly, I have no pity for the Dalish, save the fact that elves are treated so badly. They lament that Arlathan was destroyed, and the Dales were destroyed...but...I mean, in the first case, they weren't exactly diplomatic to the humans who arrived. They shut themselves in, and pretty much ignored them.

Then, in the Dales, they did the same thing. Knowing that the humans were the more powerful race, at that. And, on top of that, they never even bothered to help out with the Blight that was going on, and just continued to preserve their lore and pretty much ignore the problems of the outer world. And, they struck first according to the timeline and the codexes (although, it could be that they were provoked, who knows).

But that is off topic 

[Svest]

Grommash94 wrote...

I don't know. There could be a few parents who didn't want to have their magic-gifted children taken from them, so hid them away. What if those sort of children taught themselves? Obviously they would have to be gifted, but still.

When you teach yourself something you are generally learning through trial and error.  Learning how to do something to not mean it has to be taught to you by someone else.