224 réponses à ce sujet

[Demx]

I believe that Bioware intentionally left enough evidence in the lore to credit both sides of the argument.

[JergenKajaton]

distinguetraces wrote...

I love the ambiguity on this point in the Thedas setting.

What I'm curious about is whether future games will be able to press deeper into the Fade (many players would love a chance to explore the Golden City/Dark City) while avoiding too definite an answer on the truth or falsehood of Chantry dogma on the Maker and the origin of the taint.

I have somewhat mixed feelings about actually going to the Black City. On one hand, yeah, I'm intrigued by the concept and wouldn't mind seeing what it looks like up close. On the other hand, based on what we know about it, I imagine it as an unimaginably (key word) nightmarish place of unfathomable (key word) horrors. Anything that the developers could think up and include in the game would be by definition both imaginable and fathomable, and thus would not do the Black City justice.

Of course, these are the people who thought up broodmothers. If anyone can pull it off, it's them.

Modifié par JergenKajaton, 28 juillet 2010 - 08:14 .

[Malanek]

If the Maker exists, Leliana would be right and Morrigan be wrong. This is stretching the bounds of credibility

[Saibh]

SirShreK wrote...

JergenKajaton wrote...

I have somewhat mixed feelings about actually going to the Black City. On one hand, yeah, I'm intrigued by the concept and wouldn't mind seeing what it looks like up close. On the other hand, based on what we know about it, I imagine it as an unimaginably (key word) nightmarish place of unfathomable (key word) horrors. Anything that the developers could think up and include in the game would be by definition both imaginable and fathomable, and thus would not do the Black City justice.

Of course, these are the people who thought up broodmothers. If anyone can pull it off, it's them.

I want to know HOW and WHY can you feel that apprehension. Pardon me if this question is TOO straightforward and sound insulting. I do not mean dis-respect.... I really would like to know. I am serious!!!

To me, unless handled very very well, and it didn't look like the normal Fade from DAO, it'd ruin the mystique of it all. I like that it was left ambiguous...I don't actually want answers to these questions. We as humans don't get answers, and if they don't, it makes me feel like Thedas is a real place.

[Arttis]

Ignorance is Bliss.

[Arttis]

The after effects of knowing too much is damnation for your soul.

[KethWolfheart]

SirShreK wrote...

Ok. Just a request to all.... Kindly do not allow you emotions to shatter the Friendly atmosphere Thank ye Jack!

My apologies if that is directed, somewhat at me.  When I start to enjoy a great debate I can get a little intense at times, and forget people don't know my personality.  Of course 4 cups of coffee and a long day at work don't help.  Anyhow nothing personal, I was just getting into the heat of the debate.

I enjoy all your posts.  The only reason I got sucked into this one was due to the whole fallacy magic mandates the existence of a deity issue.  Even make believe debates in a fantasy world, that are not logically consistent, tend to be a thorn in my analytical mind.  I know it was not part of your OP theory, but you did bring it up a few times later on.

Magic can imply, or suggest, a diety, but it can't mandate it for the simple reason that their could be any number of other explanations on where the magic came from or how it works (that includes our world as well as thousands of fantasy worlds created in literature and games).

For example, in the real world if something truly magical happened to me (that I was convinced was not food poisioning, lack of sleep or some secret government experiment) I would then start to wonder if maybe some god(s) did exist.  But not because I thought magic required a god.  Instead because it would show that if I was wrong about the existence of magic than I could also be wrong about the existence of a god.  I might also consider that the magic came from a god but I might also consider it came from another dimension, or supernatural non-diety like creatures.

As for the main theory - as I said I think you make good points.  Why is the golden city there and how did it get there?  A diety is as good as reason as any, and it has some logical sense to it.  Personally I don't think it is enough to convince me that a God is the only way it got there ... in a fantasy world such as DA I could come up with some other reasons on how it got there.  But at least your main theory has some good logic and rationale behind it.

Plus it is an interesting way of thinking about the various gods in DA and magic in general.  THe poster who linked to that big thread with a lot of David Gaiders post on the nature of gods was terrific - and also added a lot of insight - and raised even more questions of course!

[Tirigon]

SirShreK wrote...


Really? Let me know next time you see something as unchanging in the Fade,

So it doesn´t change in dreams? Great, awesome, cool.

Still, it sucks.

[Arttis]

AHem spirits make fade areas.

SO wouldn't a certain type of fade spirit/demon have made it?

They have yet to reveal all the different types of spirits and demons after all.

[KethWolfheart]

Arttis wrote...

AHem spirits make fade areas.
SO wouldn't a certain type of fade spirit/demon have made it?
They have yet to reveal all the different types of spirits and demons after all.

No really on topic ... but didn't a codex entry mention that part of the problem with the spirits of the fade was that they could not create, only use what humans created (like dreams).  They could create only in the sense of using existing parts to "create" a place or experience in the Fade.  The maker considered them a failure so made the humans, at least according to some theories.

However I don't know if I recall that correctly, anyone know?

[Arttis]

KethWolfheart wrote...

Arttis wrote...

AHem spirits make fade areas.
SO wouldn't a certain type of fade spirit/demon have made it?
They have yet to reveal all the different types of spirits and demons after all.

No really on topic ... but didn't a codex entry mention that part of the problem with the spirits of the fade was that they could not create, only use what humans created (like dreams).  They could create only in the sense of using existing parts to "create" a place or experience in the Fade.  The maker considered them a failure so made the humans, at least according to some theories.

However I don't know if I recall that correctly, anyone know?

Who knows what the world was like before people started documenting what the fade is like.Maybe something happened to make the black city/gold city.SUch as something being built that resembles it.THen the highest ranking spirit/demon created it and kept it.Of course I am pretty much saying what you think is the maker could be a spirit/demon of abnormal power.
ULtimately we will never know.With the amount of lore that is there and the writers of the codex saying they assume this works in this way.Really anything can be true.Even thedas being held up by giant turtles....they can always add it since the sotry si not finished and it is a fantasy.I am leaving now as I no longer see a point....good day.

[Svest]

SirShreK wrote...

I think you already get my drift. But allow me to elaborate. I believe that the word Magic is not simply associated with Bunnies out of Hats. If this was a general practice, it would not be magic, as Magic is by definition is something that is NOT possible, but somehow happens. It is not simply a High-tech trick.  It is a stark violation of the laws of nature, for which there is NO explanation. An example would be Perpertual Motion Machines. So Magic suggests existance of a  Force that is not of Natural Origin. I belive that itself means God. That was my Argument all along. I just did not want to spoil it by being direct. It is fun to see how people interprete magic.

Or it suggests that one's understanding of the laws of nature is incorrect or incomplete.  Like others have said your argument is simply "I can't explain it so god must have done it" which is incredibly flawed logic.

[Svest]

SirShreK wrote...

Svest wrote...

SirShreK wrote...

I think you already get my drift. But allow me to elaborate. I believe that the word Magic is not simply associated with Bunnies out of Hats. If this was a general practice, it would not be magic, as Magic is by definition is something that is NOT possible, but somehow happens. It is not simply a High-tech trick.  It is a stark violation of the laws of nature, for which there is NO explanation. An example would be Perpertual Motion Machines. So Magic suggests existance of a  Force that is not of Natural Origin. I belive that itself means God. That was my Argument all along. I just did not want to spoil it by being direct. It is fun to see how people interprete magic.

Or it suggests that one's understanding of the laws of nature is incorrect or incomplete.  Like others have said your argument is simply "I can't explain it so god must have done it" which is incredibly flawed logic.

See. I TOLD you, that you WON!!! Cheers! Toasts! Party!

And I dropped it until you brought it up again.  I will continue pointing out flaws in logic as long as you keep trying to use faulty logic to make a point.  When you stop, then so will I. (or I get bored and go do something else, whatever happens first)

Modifié par Svest, 28 juillet 2010 - 09:16 .

[Some Geth]

 If the Maker is not real I will feel like this  .

[Svest]

SirShreK wrote...

Svest wrote..

And I dropped it until you brought it up again.  I will continue pointing out flaws in logic as long as you keep trying to use faulty logic to make a point.  When you stop, then so will I.

My feeble attempt at argument is this:

(From free online dictionary; It is actually a great dictionary!)
ab·so·lute  (bs-lt, bs-lt)adj.1. Perfect in quality or nature; complete.2. Not mixed; pure. See Synonyms at pure.3.           a. Not limited by restrictions or exceptions; unconditional: absolute trust.          b. Unqualified in extent or degree; total: absolute silence. See Usage Note at infinite.4. Unconstrained by constitutional or other provisions: an absolute ruler.5. Not to be doubted or questioned; positive: absolute proof.
Please check the part in Bold.

Definition of Magic, as a force that is beyond Nature, in my understanding is an absolute.

EDIT: Some correction

Except there are a couple problems with that. 

First, the definition of the word magic is not an absolute.  That very dictionary you are quoting from has 6 different definitions for the word. 

Second, you have to realize that the story is being told from our perspective sitting here in the real world.  Where conjuring fireballs from thin air and changing shape and such would be covered by your definition of magic.  It breaks the laws of nature of our world.  However in the world of Thedas such things are not impossible.  It has different laws of nature.  If magic absolutely must mean "a force that is beyond Nature" then conjuring fireballs in Thedas is simply not magic there.  Its something else which we don't have a word for because such a thing doesn't exist in the real world.  So we use the word magic to describe it so people in the real world can understand what is being said.

[Svest]

If you are looking for a better definition for the word magic when applied to fictional worlds "A plot device which allows things to happen that would be impossible in the real world, without requiring a great deal of explanation from the author" would be a good one.

Modifié par Svest, 28 juillet 2010 - 09:55 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

KethWolfheart wrote...

Arttis wrote...

AHem spirits make fade areas.
SO wouldn't a certain type of fade spirit/demon have made it?
They have yet to reveal all the different types of spirits and demons after all.

No really on topic ... but didn't a codex entry mention that part of the problem with the spirits of the fade was that they could not create, only use what humans created (like dreams).  They could create only in the sense of using existing parts to "create" a place or experience in the Fade.  The maker considered them a failure so made the humans, at least according to some theories.

However I don't know if I recall that correctly, anyone know?

OK, so someone stop me if this makes no sense, but it seems to me that it's possible the Golden City exists not in its own right, but because people believe it exists.  Think about it.  The denizens of the Fade are spirits of ephemeral concepts like Valor, Faith, Justice, Pride, Desire, etc.  They almost remind me a little of Neil Gaiman's Endless.  They don't exist independent of conscious life that experiences them and believes in them.  Do you really think a spirit of Valor or Pride would exist if there was no conscious life in Thedas?  And if the Fade itself is the world humans and elves inhabit when they dream, perhaps the Fade simply reflects their dreams.  We saw the sloth demon warping the Fade to do so in the Broken Circle quest.

Maybe the Black City is so stable in the Fade simply because just about everyone believes in it, almost like every individual dreamer leaving their own imprint upon the Fade and its spirits.  And back when it was the Golden City, the same logic applies.  The magisters--if the Chantry version has an ounce of truth--believed in the Golden City as the seat of power.  Though admittedly this leaves the problem of dwarves, who can't travel into the Fade...but if you're a dwarf, you still see the Black City in the Circle quest.  Hmm.

I'm sort of thinking of Sigil in the Planescape setting, where the strength of what you believe and the number of people who believe it has bearing on your reality.  The same might be true of the Fade.  I know it directly contradicts the Chantry version, but we don't have any external evidence other than the Chantry's word to corroborate their version of events.

[mildmort]

SirShreK wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

SirShreK wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

SirShreK wrote...

For all those saying that Magic is a fundamental feature of ANY setting: Kindly define Magic.

Define light.

Tragically I am a Physicist. So you have to ask me a specific question. So for me light is defined as:

Electromagnetic wave/s.

But what is light, a wave or a particle? How can it be both?



My point is that there is things that are unexplained here too. Not having an explanation does not = God. If you're a physicist, you should be able to wrap your head around that.

the dual nature of Light is NOT unexplained... It is perfectly explainable using quantum mechanics.

I thought quantums are still unexplained but physicist explains quantums fairly its wave side and particle side.
So the explanation of light is beautiful, also safe to believe.
But if the physicist's motivation is not the zeal for science, or making games, the explanations could hard to be valid.

[Ulicus]

SirShreK wrote...

Ulicus wrote...

SirShreK wrote...

Atheist in real world =OK
Atheist in a world of magic =Suspicious brainpower.

Uh, what? If anything, an atheist in a world full of magic can dismiss notions of a Theistic God even more easily. Any "miracle" attributed to Him can be explained away by "a mage did it", for pity's sake.

Thats a problem with Atheists. I don't care if they listen to the reason in the post or Not.

I'm confused. I'm referring purely to one statement you made, which makes no sense. You don't have to be stupid to be an atheist in Thedas. Not at all.