224 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexXIV]

filaminstrel wrote...

Hm, did SirShrek delete his account or something?

Noticed that too, something looks weird.

[Grommash94]

filaminstrel wrote...

Hm, did SirShrek delete his account or something?

Can you do that? If I recall, his last posts was about how much he hated the new Qunari look, and he was getting quite offensive..maybe he got  banned? 'shrugs'

[In Exile]

AlexXIV wrote...
And the reason why there are no records in elven lore about a Maker is, in my opinion, that the elves didn't care. They have always been focused on their own culture and ... business, so they probably didn't care for this Maker the humans kept mentioning. And they probably didn't find it worth their time to study or record knowledge about Him.

It's because the elves (as a culture) predate the Maker. Andraste and the Chantry appeared post-Blight, when Tevinter had been ravaged. Elven culture had been dead for centuries or millenia by that point. So it's very likely the elves have no role about a Maker because there was no belief in a Maker at the time, whether or not it even existed in the first place.

[Grommash94]

In Exile wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
And the reason why there are no records in elven lore about a Maker is, in my opinion, that the elves didn't care. They have always been focused on their own culture and ... business, so they probably didn't care for this Maker the humans kept mentioning. And they probably didn't find it worth their time to study or record knowledge about Him.

It's because the elves (as a culture) predate the Maker. Andraste and the Chantry appeared post-Blight, when Tevinter had been ravaged. Elven culture had been dead for centuries or millenia by that point. So it's very likely the elves have no role about a Maker because there was no belief in a Maker at the time, whether or not it even existed in the first place.

This post explains a lot, I feel:
http://social.biowar...508455/3#509837

For all we know, they may have indeed had a belief in the Maker. Loads of lore was lost when Arlathan fell, and heck, maybe the Old Gods wanted Arlathan to be destroyed because they believed in the Maker. As Leliana says: "They may just know him by a different name".

Modifié par Grommash94, 31 juillet 2010 - 01:06 .

[AlexXIV]

In Exile wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
And the reason why there are no records in elven lore about a Maker is, in my opinion, that the elves didn't care. They have always been focused on their own culture and ... business, so they probably didn't care for this Maker the humans kept mentioning. And they probably didn't find it worth their time to study or record knowledge about Him.

It's because the elves (as a culture) predate the Maker. Andraste and the Chantry appeared post-Blight, when Tevinter had been ravaged. Elven culture had been dead for centuries or millenia by that point. So it's very likely the elves have no role about a Maker because there was no belief in a Maker at the time, whether or not it even existed in the first place.

I could be wrong, but I think I did read somewhere that the humans believed in the Maker even before the Tevinters entered the Golden City. The Tevinter Empire turned from the Maker to worship the Old Gods and only then they invaded the Golden Ciry and became Darkspawn. The Chantry that reveres Andraste as the Maker's Bride though was created after or during the first Blight, that's correct.

[Grommash94]

[quote]AlexXIV wrote...

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]AlexXIV wrote...
And the reason why there are no records in elven lore about a Maker is, in my opinion, that the elves didn't care. They have always been focused on their own culture and ... business, so they probably didn't care for this Maker the humans kept mentioning. And they probably didn't find it worth their time to study or record knowledge about Him.[/quote]

It's because the elves (as a culture) predate the Maker. Andraste and the Chantry appeared post-Blight, when Tevinter had been ravaged. Elven culture had been dead for centuries or millenia by that point. So it's very likely the elves have no role about a Maker because there was no belief in a Maker at the time, whether or not it even existed in the first place.

[/quote]

I could be wrong, but I think I did read somewhere that the humans believed in the Maker even before the Tevinters entered the Golden City. /quote]


That is what the Chantry says. But it is entirely possible considering that the Tevinter Imperium did indeed acknowledge a Creator:

"The cult of the Old Gods (I don't call it "the Tevinter religion" mainly
because that, to me, speaks of the Imperial Chantry -- which is based
in today's Tevinter Imperium) didn't contradict the existence of the
Maker. Quite the opposite. The people of ancient Tevinter were aware of
the existence of the Golden City and ascribed to "the Maker" (though
this Creator was not called this until the appearance of the Chantry)
the creation of the world."

http://social.biowar...508455/3#509837

Modifié par Grommash94, 31 juillet 2010 - 01:10 .

[AlexXIV]

Grommash94 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
And the reason why there are no records in elven lore about a Maker is, in my opinion, that the elves didn't care. They have always been focused on their own culture and ... business, so they probably didn't care for this Maker the humans kept mentioning. And they probably didn't find it worth their time to study or record knowledge about Him.

It's because the elves (as a culture) predate the Maker. Andraste and the Chantry appeared post-Blight, when Tevinter had been ravaged. Elven culture had been dead for centuries or millenia by that point. So it's very likely the elves have no role about a Maker because there was no belief in a Maker at the time, whether or not it even existed in the first place.

This post explains a lot, I feel:
http://social.biowar...508455/3#509837

For all we know, they may have indeed had a belief in the Maker. Loads of lore was lost when Arlathan fell, and heck, maybe the Old Gods wanted Arlathan to be destroyed because they believed in the Maker. As Leliana says: "They may just know him by a different name".

Oh interesting link, thank you! I didn't see that before. So the elven gods are probably the oldest, and they did not create the world. That pretty much hints on the Chantry being a bunch of preachy liars. I mean they are the youngest religion but THEIR god did create everything, alright ... ah well I never liked them.

Also there is the question if there was ever a Maker in the Golden City. Maybe it was just a city of magic and the Tevinters screwed up with some magic there and caused it turn black and curse them to be darkspawn. The Chantry simply CLAIMED there would be or was a Maker in there, and of course they don't need proof because they have faith and templars with sharp pointy swords ... boo yah.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 31 juillet 2010 - 01:23 .

[Grommash94]

AlexXIV wrote...

Grommash94 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
And the reason why there are no records in elven lore about a Maker is, in my opinion, that the elves didn't care. They have always been focused on their own culture and ... business, so they probably didn't care for this Maker the humans kept mentioning. And they probably didn't find it worth their time to study or record knowledge about Him.

It's because the elves (as a culture) predate the Maker. Andraste and the Chantry appeared post-Blight, when Tevinter had been ravaged. Elven culture had been dead for centuries or millenia by that point. So it's very likely the elves have no role about a Maker because there was no belief in a Maker at the time, whether or not it even existed in the first place.

This post explains a lot, I feel:
http://social.biowar...508455/3#509837

For all we know, they may have indeed had a belief in the Maker. Loads of lore was lost when Arlathan fell, and heck, maybe the Old Gods wanted Arlathan to be destroyed because they believed in the Maker. As Leliana says: "They may just know him by a different name".

Oh interesting link, thank you! I didn't see that before. So the elven gods are probably the oldest, and they did not create the world. That pretty much hints on the Chantry being a bunch of preachy liars. I mean they are the youngest religion but THEIR god did create everything, alright ... ah well I never liked them.

Heh. Imagine if the Chantry realized that the Maker and the Andrastean religion doesn't actually make the other religions false and doesn't contradict them whatsoever, thus not making the other gods 'false' whatsoever. It would be a slap on the face alright

[AlexXIV]

Grommash94 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Grommash94 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
And the reason why there are no records in elven lore about a Maker is, in my opinion, that the elves didn't care. They have always been focused on their own culture and ... business, so they probably didn't care for this Maker the humans kept mentioning. And they probably didn't find it worth their time to study or record knowledge about Him.

It's because the elves (as a culture) predate the Maker. Andraste and the Chantry appeared post-Blight, when Tevinter had been ravaged. Elven culture had been dead for centuries or millenia by that point. So it's very likely the elves have no role about a Maker because there was no belief in a Maker at the time, whether or not it even existed in the first place.

This post explains a lot, I feel:
http://social.biowar...508455/3#509837

For all we know, they may have indeed had a belief in the Maker. Loads of lore was lost when Arlathan fell, and heck, maybe the Old Gods wanted Arlathan to be destroyed because they believed in the Maker. As Leliana says: "They may just know him by a different name".

Oh interesting link, thank you! I didn't see that before. So the elven gods are probably the oldest, and they did not create the world. That pretty much hints on the Chantry being a bunch of preachy liars. I mean they are the youngest religion but THEIR god did create everything, alright ... ah well I never liked them.

Heh. Imagine if the Chantry realized that the Maker and the Andrastean religion doesn't actually make the other religions false and doesn't contradict them whatsoever, thus not making the other gods 'false' whatsoever. It would be a slap on the face alright

Yeah I edited my former post. It seems the Chantry is more about control or power than anything else. I still wonder what about Andraste's Sacred Ashes though. How they cured Arl Eamon. I mean I saw it, so it is not a legend hehe

Modifié par AlexXIV, 31 juillet 2010 - 01:27 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

AlexXIV wrote...

Yeah I edited my former post. It seems the Chantry is more about control or power than anything else. I still wonder what about Andraste's Sacred Ashes though. How they cured Arl Eamon. I mean I saw it, so it is not a legend hehe

If you bring Oghren to the Urn (though why anyone would bring a foul-mouthed dwarf to a holy site is beyond me, except for the lulz), he mentions a huge vein of lyrium, of unusual purity and size, in the stone around the Urn.  Add that to the possibility that Andraste might have been a very powerful mage, and you have an alternate explanation.  It's about as plausible as the Chantry's version--which is to say, NOT VERY.

[steelfire_dragon]

The chant of light is nothing but lies, the chantry priests use beer in their ceremonies.





I spit at your maker, I urinated in Andrastes ashes and burned down chantrys.



and now I burned many priests at the stake.





rise feldarans rise and shake off the manacles of their lies.

they are lies because I am the mortal descendant of andraste.

[Sable Rhapsody]

steelfire_dragon wrote...

The chant of light is nothing but lies, the chantry priests use beer in their ceremonies.


I spit at your maker, I urinated in Andrastes ashes and burned down chantrys.

and now I burned many priests at the stake.


rise feldarans rise and shake off the manacles of their lies.
they are lies because I am the mortal descendant of andraste.

Wow.  And here I thought *I* disliked the Chantry.  I bow before you and your epic hate of Thedas' fictional organized faith 

[atheelogos]

steelfire_dragon wrote...

The chant of light is nothing but lies, the chantry priests use beer in their ceremonies.


I spit at your maker, I urinated in Andrastes ashes and burned down chantrys.

and now I burned many priests at the stake.


rise feldarans rise and shake off the manacles of their lies.
they are lies because I am the mortal descendant of andraste.

Oh my.....lol

[Kimarous]

History is very shrouded by what the Chantry says. Even in Duncan's opening monologue, he says "The Chantry teaches us". As far as I am concerned, they've simply filled in a lot of the details on their own.

Think about it. The initial Blight, regardless of cause, utterly devastated Thedas, particularly the Tevinter Imperium. It was a time of great chaos wherein the people most likely to know what was going on probably got killed.

For example, there's the matter of the Golden City. Well, we know that the Black City exists, apparently serving as some focal point in the Fade. We don't know for sure, however, if the Black City was ever Golden. I mean, who do we have to be sure of this little fact? Elven lore is mostly lost and I'm pretty sure the Harrowing didn't exist pre-Chantry. So here we have the Chantry claiming something that they can't know for sure and the people who probably could refute it were the people who they had been stamping out.

The Old Gods? Well, we know that the Imperium used to worship them, that they are underground, and that the darkspawn seek them out. That's... pretty much all the concrete details we have about them. One might assume "oh, well if the darkspawn seek out the Old Gods, then it makes sense that they used to be the dragon-worshipping magisters of the Imperium". Not neccessarily. Maybe the Old Gods just happen to have some weird darkspawn attraction frequency or something. We cannot say for sure.

As for the darkspawn themselves... again, the details are muddy. Apparently the magisters tried to access the city in the Fade (according to the Chantry) and then all hell broke lose. Maybe it is as the Chantry, Maker casting them back as monsters and whatnot. Maybe the Black City was some kind of prison for the darkspawn, the Imperium accidently breaking them free? Maybe the Black City corrupted the mages, rather than the reverse? How do we even know the Imperium even went to the Black City?

Then there's the whole Maker thing. Again, all we have for proof is the word of a barbarian Joan of Arc, the church she inspired, and her magical ashes that Oghren theorizes might just have some unique lyrium radiation. Also, despite claims that the spirits of the Fade were the Maker's first children, a demon in the sidequest "Something Wicked" angrily mocks a templar's reference of the Maker, claiming that "there is no Maker". Whether this is some first-hand truthful account or simply a spiteful retort is unknown, coming from a demon and whatnot.

On a final note, I have yet to see any attempted explanation for the dwarven shades in the Deep Roads.

Modifié par Kimarous, 31 juillet 2010 - 03:13 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Kimarous wrote...

Then there's the whole Maker thing. Again, all we have for proof is the word of a barbarian Joan of Arc, the church she inspired, and her magical ashes that Oghren theorizes might just have some unique lyrium radiation. Also, despite claims that the spirits of the Fade were the Maker's first children, a demon in the sidequest "Something Wicked" angrily mocks a templar's reference of the Maker, claiming that "there is no Maker". Whether this is some first-hand truthful account or simply a spiteful retort is unknown, coming from a demon and whatnot.

On a final note, I have yet to see any attempted explanation for the dwarven shades in the Deep Roads.

This just reminded me of something.  Can you ask ANY relatively "good" Fade spirit (like the Valor spirit, Justice, etc.) about the Maker?  To the best of my recollection, you can't.  But I could be wrong, it's been a while since I've played the game.

[mllrthyme]

jln.francisco wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Kimarous wrote...

Then there's the whole Maker thing. Again, all we have for proof is the word of a barbarian Joan of Arc, the church she inspired, and her magical ashes that Oghren theorizes might just have some unique lyrium radiation. Also, despite claims that the spirits of the Fade were the Maker's first children, a demon in the sidequest "Something Wicked" angrily mocks a templar's reference of the Maker, claiming that "there is no Maker". Whether this is some first-hand truthful account or simply a spiteful retort is unknown, coming from a demon and whatnot.

On a final note, I have yet to see any attempted explanation for the dwarven shades in the Deep Roads.

This just reminded me of something.  Can you ask ANY relatively "good" Fade spirit (like the Valor spirit, Justice, etc.) about the Maker?  To the best of my recollection, you can't.  But I could be wrong, it's been a while since I've played the game.

Haven't played Awakening but in Origins non of the Spirits save the demon at the orphanage and the Spirits inside the Temple ever make any religious comments.

Actually, Justice talks about the Fade at one point, when you question him by the Andraste statue outside of the chantry (if memory serves).  He basically says that the spirits don't know if there is a Maker or not, and may only believe so because the Fade is the representation of dreams.  In other words, fade spirits wonder about the Maker's existence because people do, and vice versa.

[Ellroy06]

jln.francisco wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Kimarous wrote...

Then there's the whole Maker thing. Again, all we have for proof is the word of a barbarian Joan of Arc, the church she inspired, and her magical ashes that Oghren theorizes might just have some unique lyrium radiation. Also, despite claims that the spirits of the Fade were the Maker's first children, a demon in the sidequest "Something Wicked" angrily mocks a templar's reference of the Maker, claiming that "there is no Maker". Whether this is some first-hand truthful account or simply a spiteful retort is unknown, coming from a demon and whatnot.

On a final note, I have yet to see any attempted explanation for the dwarven shades in the Deep Roads.

This just reminded me of something.  Can you ask ANY relatively "good" Fade spirit (like the Valor spirit, Justice, etc.) about the Maker?  To the best of my recollection, you can't.  But I could be wrong, it's been a while since I've played the game.

Haven't played Awakening but in Origins non of the Spirits save the demon at the orphanage and the Spirits inside the Temple ever make any religious comments.

And remember that Spirits see the world through the eyes of mortals. Even if a Spirit does mention the Maker, he could simply be replicating what he saw in the minds of humans.

Also, the Golden/Black City is actually just another term for R'lyeh, where the dead Maker/Cthulhu lies dreaming.

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.

[Sable Rhapsody]

mllrthyme wrote...
Actually, Justice talks about the Fade at one point, when you question him by the Andraste statue outside of the chantry (if memory serves).  He basically says that the spirits don't know if there is a Maker or not, and may only believe so because the Fade is the representation of dreams.  In other words, fade spirits wonder about the Maker's existence because people do, and vice versa.

Huh.  Well, that's not circular at all  You'd think the spirits would know if there was a Maker, with the Chantry's take on lost mortal souls being separated from the Maker in the Fade. 

As for Cthulhu, he's just too cute to be in Thedas.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 31 juillet 2010 - 03:49 .

[Kimarous]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

As for Cthulhu, he's just too cute to be in Thedas.

Indubitably.

www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par Kimarous, 31 juillet 2010 - 03:54 .

[steelfire_dragon]

the black city is nothing but the body of the dreamer as he r she looks back toward the waking world.
the chantry lies I tell you lies.


they even eat toe jam with forks...


btw if I made you laugh, then I succeded

Modifié par steelfire_dragon, 31 juillet 2010 - 04:43 .

[steelfire_dragon]

Kimarous wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

As for Cthulhu, he's just too cute to be in Thedas.

Indubitably.

www.youtube.com/watch

raises hand an sways back and to the left, back an to the left.

the power of cthulu does not compel thee
the power of cthulu does not compel thee



and for daring to make me watch that garbage again, you are now doomed to click this

Modifié par steelfire_dragon, 31 juillet 2010 - 04:51 .

[kido]

[

SirShreK wrote...


- one can safely assume that Elven Gods were NOT the prime creators... They may have contributed to creation significantly, but they did not create souls, spirits and stuff. Thus if there IS a prime creator behind the World, he is NOT an elven god.

The reason for so strongly believing ina prime Creator in Thedas is of course the Golden city. This is an intelligent creation that could not have formed itself out of pure chance!

Hence a prime creator exists. HE may or may not be the Maker that Chantry worships... but if the above argument is correct, there is a central God of Thedas. You may as well start calling him the Maker.

OK

EDIT: Prime creator: He who was NOT created and created the rest or at least created the creator/s of the rest.

That is no prove of the existence of the Maker or any divine god of Thedas. The golden city could be create by an unknown (extinct?) super-powerful sapient race that resides within the Fade. We cannot assume that the fade is always inhabited only by those jealous spirits with no imagination. 

All living creature in Thedas could be the result of biological EVOLUTION. Thedas could be just another planet orbiting a sun, which is in a universe born from a big bang. The fade could be just another dimension where physical rule is different from where Thedas is, and with different kind of life form. But there's an overlap between the two resulting in Thedas's denizens' dream effecting the fabric of the Fade itself.

From all we have learned in the game, no god can be proved to have existed, be it the Maker or Elven's. According to the game, we all read about them and their creations from man-made documents, which cannot be relied on at all. The whole concept of the maker may just stem from Andraste or the Chantry itself, to help propagandize its campaign and control its believers. Or maybe he's just what believers want to believe existed, so he can be their hope and salvation in the world of turmoil and despair

And no, I cannot disprove the existence of "The Maker". :innocent:
It may have existed in dragon age universe, after all. Maybe as a very powerful energy life form that can manipulate the reality itself. Maybe the Maker is an entire race of that energy creatures. Maybe there is many "gods", if that's what you like to call them. Anything is possible. There ain't need to be just one supreme Maker that create everything...

"Gods", "Maker","Spirit", "Demon" are just words that people in Dragon age Thedas(which is appoximately as advanced as European middleage) used to call those phenomenas or concept that they couldn't comprehend.

What I really wanna say is the Chantry's version of the Maker is just that, the Chantry's version. 

Dragon age is such a wonderful game because it reflects our real society with a blunt honesty.
To me, the Chantry is the greatest parody ever.

[serjwolf]

SirShreK wrote...

BLA BLA BLA BLA lets talk about video game theology BAL BLA BLA BLA

No thanks

[HarryThePlotter]

serjwolf wrote...

SirShreK wrote...

BLA BLA BLA BLA lets talk about video game theology BAL BLA BLA BLA

No thanks

Hmm..... troll?