1593 réponses à ce sujet

[HighlandBerserkr]

Like someone said earlier they barley look different besides the horns, and they give a very good explanation why SOME have them, go ahead and cover the horns with your fingers especially the top pic and it basically looks like the Qunari we know of just with body paint/tatts. Also i really hope we get to see a female Qunari in DA2 really curious to see what they look like.

[twincast]

Ticladesign wrote...

Yay, 4th Edition Tieflings in Dragon Age2.

Please don't give me nightmares by referring to that abomination.

the_one_54321 wrote...

Personally, I think they should have left elves and dwarves out of DA entirely. They should have just come up with all their own new races. The changes they made were something of an insult to the original source work. Nothing was wrong with elves or dwarves to begin with. Nothing needed to be changed about their style. If they were looking for something original, they should have just come up with their own ideas. The fact that they are saying they've changed them further also bothers me a little bit.

I'll just ignore the whole "original source work" fallacy (other than herby pointing it out) and ask you straight out: So every take on elves and dwarves since Tolkien has to be a carbon copy of his ideas and interpretations? What the hell are you on?

David Gaider wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
They don't need to evolve. Nothing is wrong with them. If you want something different. Think up new ideas instead of bastardizing ideas that were never yours.

Then who's are they, exactly?

Like it or not, they're part of the fantasy milieu. We're using them and we're going to put our own spin on them, and continue to evolve them in Dragon Age as we see fit.

whose

Modifié par twincast, 29 juillet 2010 - 05:22 .

[the_one_54321]

twincast wrote...
I'll just ignore the whole "original source work" fallacy and ask you straight out: So every take on elves and dwarves since Tolkien has to be a carbon copy of his ideas and inerpretations? What the hell are you on?

There were a number of other posts after that one. You should have read them.

[javierabegazo]

Kordaris wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Like it or not, they're part of the fantasy milieu. We're using them and we're going to put our own spin on them, and continue to evolve them in Dragon Age as we see fit.

Dungeon Master:So you guys, about those elves from last game. I decided they suck so today all elves have chitin wings and red eyes. It's my game and I am going to do what I like!

Alright Kordaris, enough with the snide comments. Be more respectful in your posts about your disappointment

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Modifié par javierabegazo, 29 juillet 2010 - 05:24 .

[tmp7704]

the_one_54321 wrote...

My memory isn't perfect, but I did finish reading the Silmarillion again about two months ago, so it's still fairly fresh. I don't believe it ever says specificaly "all the balrogs were destroyed." 

Yes, in the version you've read they weren't. Which is precisely because the author had changed his mind on this matter.

[the_one_54321]

tmp7704 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
My memory isn't perfect, but I did finish reading the Silmarillion again about two months ago, so it's still fairly fresh. I don't believe it ever says specificaly "all the balrogs were destroyed."

Yes, in the version you've read they weren't. Which is precisely because the author had changed his mind on this matter.

Perhaps he caught a continuity error? Because, you know, that doesn't happen all the time in published media.

[VampireCommando]

They've dinally divided by zero!



On a serious note though i always thought the Qunari looked a bit too 'Human' so to speak so i for one welcome this change.

[tmp7704]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Perhaps he caught a continuity error? Because, you know, that doesn't happen all the time in published media.

Sure, but "what's done is done. You can't retcon [them] out"

[Addai]

tmp7704 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

What the characters in the story know and what the author knows are two different things. They thought all the balrogs were destroyed. It turned out that one survivded deep under Moria.

Except Silmarillion uses third-person omniscient narrative throughout. I don't think it ever concerns itself with what some particular character may or may not know which only makes sense given what the work is trying to achieve.

*Silm senses tingling*

The Silmarillion is a compendium of legends and not meant to be encyclopedic.  There is even controversy about what belongs in it since JRRT did not himself publish a final version.  Everyone understands that his notes in The Lost Tales and the other works published by his son represent "WIP" snapshots and not canon, so something he might have written in there about balrogs is just of interest to see how the lore evolved in Tolkien's mind, doesn't really prove anything about retcons in his published works.

As for how this relates to DA2, the new concept art actually fits the lore, fills in gaps about the race that were missing in DAO, and thus isn't a retcon as far as I'm concerned.  We only saw a handful of Qunari in DAO, not enough on which to base a definitive image of them.  That is a different case for the elves and dwarves and if their looks change substantially in DA2, we would get into retcon territory.

[the_one_54321]

tmp7704 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
Perhaps he caught a continuity error? Because, you know, that doesn't happen all the time in published media.

Sure, but "what's done is done. You can't retcon [them] out"

Continuity and deciding to remove elves/dwarves because I complained about them are two completely different things. If Gaider listened to what I said and erased elves and dwarves to make his own original races at this point, they'd fire him.

[UndercoverDoctor]

I think giving the different races more range is a awesome idea.

[Mary Kirby]

Capt. Obvious wrote...

Why is this turnin into a Lord of the Rings discussion?

You know how any album left in a car for more than two weeks turns into a Best of Queen album? Any thread on a Dragon Age forum, if left to itself long enough, becomes a Lord of the Rings discussion.

[Grommash94]

the_one_54321 wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
What the characters in the story know and what the author knows are two different things. They thought all the balrogs were destroyed. It turned out that one survivded deep under Moria.

Except Silmarillion uses third-person omniscient narrative throughout. I don't think it ever concerns itself with what some particular character may or may not know which only makes sense given what the work is trying to achieve.

My memory isn't perfect, but I did finish reading the Silmarillion again about two months ago, so it's still fairly fresh. I don't believe it ever says specificaly "all the balrogs were destroyed." 

Yes it was more along the lines of them hiding deep underground.

[tmp7704]

Addai67 wrote...

We only saw a handful of Qunari in DAO, not enough on which to base a definitive image of them.  That is a different case for the elves and dwarves and if their looks change substantially in DA2, we would get into retcon territory.

I think what should be considered is also the changes driven by technological limitations/advancements and/or aesthetics. For example, we've been told women in DA2 no longer have boy hips, humongous hands and possibly even walk different than men do. All these being drastic visual changes from DAO, but is it a retcon and is anyone demanding to have the "pure, original vision" version kept instead because otherwise that's no longer the same women they were in DAO?

[the_one_54321]

Mary Kirby wrote...

Capt. Obvious wrote...
Why is this turnin into a Lord of the Rings discussion?

You know how any album left in a car for more than two weeks turns into a Best of Queen album? Any thread on a Dragon Age forum, if left to itself long enough, becomes a Lord of the Rings discussion.

The phrase "all roads lead to Rome" originated from the fact that Rome was first established and roads began to spread outwards from it to it's other holdings. It's the concept of origin. TLotR is the origin. All fantasy discussions lead to TLotR.

[tmp7704]

Mary Kirby wrote...

Capt. Obvious wrote...

Why is this turnin into a Lord of the Rings discussion?

You know how any album left in a car for more than two weeks turns into a Best of Queen album? Any thread on a Dragon Age forum, if left to itself long enough, becomes a Lord of the Rings discussion.

I thought any Dragon Age thread turns into discussion about Loghain, given enough time...

[PandaTimezz]

Stop picking on the new Qunari. The Maker loves all His children equally.

And so should we.

[Mary Kirby]

tmp7704 wrote...

I thought any Dragon Age thread turns into discussion about Loghain, given enough time...

If you turn right at Loghain, go through Alistair, and keep driving past Denerim, you'll wind up at elves and dwarves, and from there we go straight to Tolkien. You can't miss it.

[twincast]

the_one_54321 wrote...

twincast wrote...
I'll just ignore the whole "original source work" fallacy and ask you straight out: So every take on elves and dwarves since Tolkien has to be a carbon copy of his ideas and inerpretations? What the hell are you on?

There were a number of other posts after that one. You should have read them.

Other than your one sentence and one post of referring to mythology I had read 'em all. Kind of ironic that the only things I overlooked are the ones my initial remark is referring to, but that was just a little pet-peeve rant cut short anyway.

My main point stands, which is who are you to tell others what they can use just because you thought Tolkien's races perfect? He was the first to have a modern fantasy story published, so from now on no one dare adept Germanic mythology anymore?

I'm sure we can all agree on them being overused, but different takes on the same tropes are surely more enjoyable than reading the same take over and over again or cutting off anything looking or sounding like elf or dwarf from the public domain for all eternity just because you (or anyone) don't happen to like them.

[Jimmy Fury]

the_one_54321 wrote...
These are all the roots. Stories passed down by word of mouth and told at fireside and all that romantic stuff. Tolkien gets to claim elves and dwarves (and gets to claim to be the source of almost all fantasy stories we are familiar with) because he took these roots and turned them into somthing writte, comprehensive, and epic. And he was the very first person to do it.

I see what you're trying to say but I'm sorry, I find it absolutely absurd.
Not to mention disrespectful to Tolkein himself. You are basically saying his own inspirations, the stories and mythology and authors he loved, are irrelivant. Not to mention his friends like C.S. Lewis...
I'll give that he refined the archetypes but I highly highly doubt he himself would have ever tried to claim the mythology he was inspired by. You doing it on his behalf just seems... rude to me.
Not to mention that Hans Christian Anderson and The Grimm brothers wrote (or collected the folk lore int he case of the latter) about elves and dwarfs before Tolkein was even born...

Anyway this has gotten completely off topic as it no longer has anything to do with the Qunari. So I'm moving on.

the_one_54321 wrote...
What the characters in the story know
and what the author knows are two different things. They thought
all the balrogs were destroyed. It turned out that one survivded deep
under Moria.

Now this I can agree with 100% and is the most perfect argument ever for the new Qunari designs not breaking lore!

(and OMG KIRBY I LOVE YOU. Good Omens references = eternal love )

[John Epler]

Mary Kirby wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

I thought any Dragon Age thread turns into discussion about Loghain, given enough time...

If you turn right at Loghain, go through Alistair, and keep driving past Denerim, you'll wind up at elves and dwarves, and from there we go straight to Tolkien. You can't miss it.

Unless, of course, you take the 541 exit to Song of Ice and Fire. But that leads to the same place, just via the scenic route.

[MerinTB]

Saibh wrote...

So, anyone else thinking "tiefling"?



Keep striving for "originality" and getting away from that "generic D&D look."

[Grommash94]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
These are all the roots. Stories passed down by word of mouth and told at fireside and all that romantic stuff. Tolkien gets to claim elves and dwarves (and gets to claim to be the source of almost all fantasy stories we are familiar with) because he took these roots and turned them into somthing writte, comprehensive, and epic. And he was the very first person to do it.

I see what you're trying to say but I'm sorry, I find it absolutely absurd.
Not to mention disrespectful to Tolkein himself. You are basically saying his own inspirations, the stories and mythology and authors he loved, are irrelivant. Not to mention his friends like C.S. Lewis...
I'll give that he refined the archetypes but I highly highly doubt he himself would have ever tried to claim the mythology he was inspired by. You doing it on his behalf just seems... rude to me.
Not to mention that Hans Christian Anderson and The Grimm brothers wrote (or collected the folk lore int he case of the latter) about elves and dwarfs before Tolkein was even born...

The man himself acknowledged all of his influences (George MacDonald, The Eddas, etc) and stated that really, with LOTR, his goal was just to make mythology for the English people, as he felt that all of Europe had their own mythologies, and they didn't.