1593 réponses à ce sujet

[the_one_54321]

twincast wrote...
My main point stands, which is who are you to tell others what they can use just because you thought Tolkien's races perfect? He was the first to have a modern fantasy story published, so from now on no one dare adept Germanic mythology anymore?
I'm sure we can all agree on them being overused, but different takes on the same tropes are surely more enjoyable than reading the same take over and over again or cutting off anything looking or sounding like elf or dwarf from the public domain for all eternity just because you (or anyone) don't happen to like them.

You simultaneously make a point and missunderstand.
For one, it's not who I am, it's who the original writer is. Tolkien wrote it first. Some minor and/or ineresting adaptions have come from people using his writings, but as you said, we can all agree that it's been overused.
On the flip side, when I see an author actually addapt the old European myths into new stories I'll let you know. Because no one has done that since Tolkier that I am aware of.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 29 juillet 2010 - 05:44 .

[Grommash94]

JohnEpler wrote...

Mary Kirby wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

I thought any Dragon Age thread turns into discussion about Loghain, given enough time...

If you turn right at Loghain, go through Alistair, and keep driving past Denerim, you'll wind up at elves and dwarves, and from there we go straight to Tolkien. You can't miss it.

Unless, of course, you take the 541 exit to Song of Ice and Fire. But that leads to the same place, just via the scenic route.

I am going to have to preserve this 'map' for future reference

[tmp7704]

Mary Kirby wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

I thought any Dragon Age thread turns into discussion about Loghain, given enough time...

If you turn right at Loghain, go through Alistair, and keep driving past Denerim, you'll wind up at elves and dwarves, and from there we go straight to Tolkien. You can't miss it.

Now i see why it won't always work; certain segment of the fanbase will insist it's instead Alistair who should drive through them, repeatedly if possible...

[Djehmli]

The more artwork I see, the more I cannot get the TSR Darksun world, Brom artwork out of my head. If they are truly trying to find something unique and distinct, sorry, it's already been done.

I've just finished my first run through of Origins and am starting Awakening tonight. What I've read and researched so far for DA2 is leaving me with a negative 25 on the approval scale visually.

[Nerevar-as]

MerinTB wrote...

Saibh wrote...

So, anyone else thinking "tiefling"?



Keep striving for "originality" and getting away from that "generic D&D look."

DA was BG spiritual succesor after all.

[Addai]

tmp7704 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

We only saw a handful of Qunari in DAO, not enough on which to base a definitive image of them.  That is a different case for the elves and dwarves and if their looks change substantially in DA2, we would get into retcon territory.

I think what should be considered is also the changes driven by technological limitations/advancements and/or aesthetics. For example, we've been told women in DA2 no longer have boy hips, humongous hands and possibly even walk different than men do. All these being drastic visual changes from DAO, but is it a retcon and is anyone demanding to have the "pure, original vision" version kept instead because otherwise that's no longer the same women they were in DAO?

I think it's a moot discussion until we see the elf and dwarf redesigns.  Minor aesthetic variations, even bringing them more in line with the books, no problem.  I'm a little nervous about the phrase "different silhouette" than humans meaning larger structural changes.  The femCousland would recognize the femHawke as being part of her species even if she has more feminine proportions.  Just hoping my DAO elves would recognize their DA2 cousins and not think they'd been mutated in some freak lyrium accident.

[John Epler]

the_one_54321 wrote...

twincast wrote...
My main point stands, which is who are you to tell others what they can use just because you thought Tolkien's races perfect? He was the first to have a modern fantasy story published, so from now on no one dare adept Germanic mythology anymore?
I'm sure we can all agree on them being overused, but different takes on the same tropes are surely more enjoyable than reading the same take over and over again or cutting off anything looking or sounding like elf or dwarf from the public domain for all eternity just because you (or anyone) don't happen to like them.

You simultaneously make a point and missunderstand.
For one, it's not who I am, it's who the original writer is. Tolkien wrote it first. Some minor and/or ineresting adaptions have come from people using his writings, but as you said, we can all agree that it's been overused.
On the flip side, when I see an author actually addapt the old European myths into new stories I'll let you know. Because no one has done that since Tolkier that I am aware of.

But given that Tolkien himself claimed Norse and other mythologies as his primary inspiration, while claiming that he was attempting to establish a mythology for the English, wouldn't you think he'd prefer people take what he's done and evolve it in their own direction? Earlier, you were arguing that we should have kept the Elves and Dwarves exactly as Tolkien established them - but that seems to run contrary to what Tolkien himself did. While it's obviously impossible to say for certain (being as how no one can speak with Tolkien on this matter), I would imagine that he'd be quite pleased to see people using his creations as the basis for a sort of 'modern mythology' by bringing their own elements to the mix, rather than simply copying his.

Perhaps I'm merely misunderstanding your point.

[the_one_54321]

Addai67 wrote...
Just hoping my DAO elves would recognize their DA2 cousins and not think they'd been mutated in some freak lyrium accident.

Although I wouldn't mind seeing some freakish lyrium accident mutants as well...

[tmp7704]

the_one_54321 wrote...

On the flip side, when I see an author actually addapt the old European myths into new stories I'll let you know. Because no one has done that since Tolkier that I am aware of.

But since you don't actually know the author's exact creation process, aren't you just making arrogant presumption they couldn't possibly start from the similar points Tolkien did but arrive to different results, and they must be just copying and twisting his individual take?

[bla2]

BlackyBlack wrote...

I wanna play as a qunari in DA3

agreed

Modifié par bla2, 29 juillet 2010 - 05:54 .

[twincast]

He was human. I don't see any reason to raise his works on an untouchable pedestal.

the_one_54321 wrote...

On the flip side, when I see an author actually addapt the old European myths into new stories I'll let you know. Because no one has done that since Tolkier that I am aware of.

I expected such a remark, but trying to find a proper term for what I meant I failed to think of the obvious (mythological creatures) and just stuck with my provisorial solution (mythology). But anyway, that we can agree on.

[Grommash94]

JohnEpler wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

twincast wrote...
My main point stands, which is who are you to tell others what they can use just because you thought Tolkien's races perfect? He was the first to have a modern fantasy story published, so from now on no one dare adept Germanic mythology anymore?
I'm sure we can all agree on them being overused, but different takes on the same tropes are surely more enjoyable than reading the same take over and over again or cutting off anything looking or sounding like elf or dwarf from the public domain for all eternity just because you (or anyone) don't happen to like them.

You simultaneously make a point and missunderstand.
For one, it's not who I am, it's who the original writer is. Tolkien wrote it first. Some minor and/or ineresting adaptions have come from people using his writings, but as you said, we can all agree that it's been overused.
On the flip side, when I see an author actually addapt the old European myths into new stories I'll let you know. Because no one has done that since Tolkier that I am aware of.

...I would imagine that he'd be quite pleased to see people using his creations as the basis for a sort of 'modern mythology' by bringing their own elements to the mix, rather than simply copying his.

As you said, that is exactly what Tolkien did with the elves of myth, so I would imagine that he would be thrilled to learn that he has been a huge inspiration for other writers, who have created their own worlds while retaining some of his elements.

[the_one_54321]

JohnEpler wrote...
But given that Tolkien himself claimed Norse and other mythologies as his primary inspiration, while claiming that he was attempting to establish a mythology for the English, wouldn't you think he'd prefer people take what he's done and evolve it in their own direction? Earlier, you were arguing that we should have kept the Elves and Dwarves exactly as Tolkien established them - but that seems to run contrary to what Tolkien himself did. While it's obviously impossible to say for certain (being as how no one can speak with Tolkien on this matter), I would imagine that he'd be quite pleased to see people using his creations as the basis for a sort of 'modern mythology' by bringing their own elements to the mix, rather than simply copying his.

Perhaps I'm merely misunderstanding your point.

You're right that it's kind of the opposite of what Tolkien did. But I see it as that Tolkien took old spoken stories and myths and turned them all into an elaborate fantasy world that was his own. And that fantasy world that he created is what has inspired the entirety of the Fantasy Genre since then. In that much I don't take any exception at all.
In terms of, as you phrased it, using his creations as the basis for a sort of 'modern mythology' by bringing their own elements into the mix, it's been done. Almost to death. Most fantasy PnP RPG games have exactly this to thank for their existence.
But taking something and changing it, and then taking it and changing it again, and then taking it and changing it again, after a while, robs it of most of its charm and originality. I have to be honest, on a personal level I did not at all like what was done with the history of elves and dwarves in DA:O. It felt like they took the "skin" and applied something entirely alien underneath it. But that's just my personal feelings on it.
That said, I'll again say that the creations seen in the Qunari and the races of ME were fantastic. That is the kind of thing that lives up to the imagination and originality that we saw in the creation of Middle Earth. I'd love to see more of that. And though I made the comment as mostly tounge-in-cheek, it would really be awesome to see someone come up with an actuall all new interpretation of the old english myths and legends.

[Addai]

tmp7704 wrote...

Mary Kirby wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

I thought any Dragon Age thread turns into discussion about Loghain, given enough time...

If you turn right at Loghain, go through Alistair, and keep driving past Denerim, you'll wind up at elves and dwarves, and from there we go straight to Tolkien. You can't miss it.

Now i see why it won't always work; certain segment of the fanbase will insist it's instead Alistair who should drive through them, repeatedly if possible...

I was going to say, as a Tolkien nerd, I'm disappointed I've missed out on all these Silmarillion hijacks.  But you've illuminated the problem perfectly, tmp:  We ran (a sword) through Loghain and stopped at Alistair.  Do not go to Denerim, do not collect 200 sovereigns.

It's ironic that people are criticizing the DA writers for bastardizing and tweaking Tolkien, when he did the same thing to Norse myth and didn't blush about it once.  Good grief!  I'm just so happy DA elves didn't end up looking like WoW freaks.  I think Tolkien would consider them tribute.

[Irenie]

tmp7704 wrote...

Mary Kirby wrote...

Capt. Obvious wrote...

Why is this turnin into a Lord of the Rings discussion?

You know how any album left in a car for more than two weeks turns into a Best of Queen album? Any thread on a Dragon Age forum, if left to itself long enough, becomes a Lord of the Rings discussion.

I thought any Dragon Age thread turns into discussion about Loghain, given enough time...

I wonder what Loghain thinks of the new Qunari...

[twincast]

Gwawr wrote...

I wonder what Loghain thinks of the new Qunari...

As long as they aren't Orlesian I doubt he cares.

[Bryy_Miller]

the_one_54321 wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...
Changing them from strong but unremarkable
creatures which existend in hundreds/thousands to terrible menace with
no more than seven known specimens isn't "retconing anything"? Colour
me surprised. http://tolkien.slimy...ssays/TAB2.html

It's not a retcon if his son published it years later!  

Yes, yes, it is.

the_one_54321 wrote...

MaxQuartiroli wrote...
If you think so you should consider Bram Stoker the owner of the vampire genre, and Dracula the only reliable Vampire and therefore considering crap about the 99% of every book/game concerning vampires released after it

Yeah, I would go with that. Most of the contemporary vampire crap is... well, crap.

But it is still vampire crap.

[rolson00]

just wanted to point this out

you know amaranthine the place where the elves came from? and Cameron our dalish friend?

well i came across their names in mass effect DAO took them from ME!

[Carmen_Willow]

Kordaris wrote...

Saibh wrote...
 “We have also changed the way elves and dwarves look for that matter, but qunari seem the most dramatic because you only ever saw Sten in Dragon Age: Origins.”

So I guess I was on drugs when I saw that qunari mercenaries, qunari guards in Denerim ?

I was thinking similar thoughts as I recalled some qunari mercenaries, etc., as well. Oh, and Sten's buddies who were massacred, and the bunch I went out to slaughter in a Denerim quest.   And they all pretty much looked like Sten. 

[marquiseondore]

Capt. Obvious wrote...

bla2 wrote...

BlackyBlack wrote...

I wanna play as a qunari in DA3

agreed

I agree with you agreeing.

But we must have beard options this time.

[HighlandBerserkr]

JohnEpler wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

twincast wrote...
My main point stands, which is who are you to tell others what they can use just because you thought Tolkien's races perfect? He was the first to have a modern fantasy story published, so from now on no one dare adept Germanic mythology anymore?
I'm sure we can all agree on them being overused, but different takes on the same tropes are surely more enjoyable than reading the same take over and over again or cutting off anything looking or sounding like elf or dwarf from the public domain for all eternity just because you (or anyone) don't happen to like them.

You simultaneously make a point and missunderstand.
For one, it's not who I am, it's who the original writer is. Tolkien wrote it first. Some minor and/or ineresting adaptions have come from people using his writings, but as you said, we can all agree that it's been overused.
On the flip side, when I see an author actually addapt the old European myths into new stories I'll let you know. Because no one has done that since Tolkier that I am aware of.

But given that Tolkien himself claimed Norse and other mythologies as his primary inspiration, while claiming that he was attempting to establish a mythology for the English, wouldn't you think he'd prefer people take what he's done and evolve it in their own direction? Earlier, you were arguing that we should have kept the Elves and Dwarves exactly as Tolkien established them - but that seems to run contrary to what Tolkien himself did. While it's obviously impossible to say for certain (being as how no one can speak with Tolkien on this matter), I would imagine that he'd be quite pleased to see people using his creations as the basis for a sort of 'modern mythology' by bringing their own elements to the mix, rather than simply copying his.

Perhaps I'm merely misunderstanding your point.

I'm all for creativity and i really like the new direction DA2 is going....besides the darkspawn just please don't do nothing to drastic to the dwarves I likey me short stocky tough as nails mo fos with massive beards

[tmp7704]

the_one_54321 wrote...

And though I made the comment as mostly tounge-in-cheek, it would really be awesome to see someone come up with an actuall all new interpretation of the old english myths and legends.

Andrzej Sapkowski's books are actually amalgamate of East European and arthurian legends...

[filetemo]

I'm calling it now: our qunari companion is a mage who fleed from par vollen because he didn't want to be put on leashes. You heard it here first