1593 réponses à ce sujet

[Saibh]

Kordaris wrote...

But a mage is better

A mage costs years of investments, can turn into abomination and is virtually impossible to replace.
A cannon costs less, can be made in relatively short amount of time, and has similiar firepower to an average mage if not higher, plus it needs no lyrium to recharge.{smilie}

...

Yet...

Mages won.

Cannons didn't.

Why is this point escaping you?

[tez19]

kordaris is a dumb dumb

[Grommash94]

Kordaris wrote...

But a mage is better

A mage costs years of investments, can turn into abomination and is virtually impossible to replace.
A cannon costs less, can be made in relatively short amount of time, and has similiar firepower to an average mage if not higher, plus it needs no lyrium to recharge.{smilie}

Yes, but a cannon is bulky, hard to aim, and is not always a great idea to use on certain terrain. Mages can heal, destroy, and control. 


But, I can't argue this any further, or my brain is going to explode in a fit of absolute rage.

[Khayness]

Saibh wrote...

Why is this point escaping you?

Why are you asking this from the same person who brings "Hawke is a peasant" into every discussion?

[Grommash94]

Kordaris wrote...

Saibh wrote...


...

Yet...

Mages won.

Cannons didn't.

Why is this point escaping you?

Numbers won. Not mages which were a inferior answer to cannons.

Ok, ok, one last point. You said numbers sometimes win. So, they didn't win here, mages did, the end, har har. :happy:

[tmp7704]

I'm still trying to figure out why the whole idea of horns on the Qunari feels like something that's been around for long time. I have only really found one mention of that and it's actually in timeline of Thedas published for DA2:

6:30 Steel Age: Whispers reached the lands of Thedas that strange men had arrived in the northern jungle islands of the Boeric Ocean, tall men with horns and ships that fired thunder. These men called themselves “qunari”, and invaded the mainland in a great wave that took humanity by surprise. They forced all they conquered to convert to the Qun, their oppressive religion that heralded all as equals but scorned all individual freedom. Humanity battled to drive the qunari from the mainland for centuries to come.

the old version still available at DA wiki is different:

6:30 Steel: The qunari land in Par Vollen and conquer it quickly, though word of that does not reach the continent until the qunari ships begin to land en masse in Seheron and northern Rivain in 6:32 Steel. The First Qunari War begins and lasts for most of the century. The qunari’s initial advances are great: By 6:42 Steel, they have conquered much of the Tevinter Imperium, Rivain, and Antiva and begin to assault the Free Marches. Only Minrathous itself remains besieged but unconquered in the north. By 6:85 Steel, the humans have organized themselves and pushed back hard enough that massive rebellions in Tevinter manage to free the Imperium, and the qunari lines begin to crumble. By 7:23 Storm, the qunari are pushed back to Seheron and Rivain, but they are well entrenched. The Battle of the Nocen Sea is the largest naval engagement in history and results in a stalemate and the destruction of many of the ships on both sides. Exhausted, an impasse begins.

the inability to track the source down is... mildly irritating.

[marquiseondore]

Kordaris wrote...

But a mage is better

A mage costs years of investments, can turn into abomination and is virtually impossible to replace.
A cannon costs less, can be made in relatively short amount of time, and has similiar firepower to an average mage if not higher, plus it needs no lyrium to recharge.
Plus the cannon won't turn into abomination;)

That's assuming that the materials needed to build a cannon is readily available.

[Grommash94]

Kordaris wrote...

Grommash94 wrote...

Ok, ok, one last point. You said numbers sometimes win. So, they didn't win here, mages did, the end, har har. :happy:

Please don't act so childish. The numbers won according to the Codex.

The codex isn't canon.

[langelog]

Interesting, I look forward to meeting these horned Qunari on the battlfield and testing their mettle! Like the new look Bioware, and I'm glad to see you're working on visual distance between races. Some are complaining about continuity, when it makes sense to me that the Qunari would have horned and hornless people with different skin colors. Humans have a wide range of skin tones, and although we don't have horns, some races tend to be taller/shorter, or have a hair/eye color common among that group of people. This new fearsome appearance really highlights the Qunari's true nature. Qunari are a hardy people with a strong sense of personal honor, and are known to conquer neighboring lands and spread their influence, such as converting the conquered to the Qun. The Qunari appear so hostile now, and coupled with their lifestyle, I can imagine how they will be viewed as evil, despite what the player witnessed from Sten. Once more, looks great Bioware and I'm looking forward to more.

Modifié par langelog, 30 juillet 2010 - 01:40 .

[marquiseondore]

Kordaris wrote...

marquiseondore wrote...


That's assuming that the materials needed to build a cannon is readily available.

Nothing indicates that they are rarer than lyrium.

The Chantry wants more lyrium it gets more lyrium. They are the ones to control the supply.

[Grommash94]

Kordaris wrote...

Grommash94 wrote...

Yes, but a cannon is bulky, hard to aim, and is not always a great idea to use on certain terrain. Mages can heal, destroy, and control.

But they have their own minds, easily influenced by demons;)
But the definitve deal breaker is the amount of investment needed-you need years and years to train a mage and there is no chance he won't fail.
And then it takes further time before he gains powers comperable to firepower of a cannon.
If he dies, well all that investment is lost.

A good mage is not easily influenced. The whole point of the Harrowing is to make sure the mages who 'graduate' are not that succeptible. And considering a mage can be used for a variety of reasons, would more than likely take out enough cannons to annoy the Qunari, and is sentient, the mage wins.

Modifié par Grommash94, 30 juillet 2010 - 01:40 .

[Jimmy Fury]

Kordaris wrote...
Hmm, my point was not that cannons are incredibly advanced in themselves

Really? Because you said exactly that twice.

Kordaris wrote...
Gunpowder weapons require an
extreme level of technological sophistication combining
metalurgy, chemistry, mathematics.
No other civilisation on Thedas
has such sophistication.

Kordaris wrote...
Actually you must have several advancements
in order to reach gunpowder weapons, only after certain period and
accumulation of knowledge creation of such weaponry is possible. And
they also require engineering, so it's not like the dwarfs are above the
qunari level.

Both quotes were in response to me stating that clockwork is an equally impressive advancement that puts dwarves in the same realm as Qunari. Which I still maintain is true, hence me continuing to argue with the "no other civilization on thedas has such sophistication" part.
The Dwarves do.

[MKDAWUSS]

Let's see mages stack up against ARs...

[Saibh]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

Let's see mages stack up against ARs...

Depends. Can they shield themselves against guns? If they can, guns are useless. Mages can set traps, shield, heal, buff...

[tmp7704]

Grommash94 wrote...

The codex isn't canon.

However if you want to invoke logic, in this particular example the history is being written by the victors and if it's these victors who write "in the end they didn't have our sheer numbers" then the number advantage appears to be considerable factor, one that even the victors had to acknowledge. Even if there's bias in the documents then it would work in the opposite direction -- it would be more positive for the winners to claim they didn't outnumber the enemy by much if at all, as it'd make them see more heroic.

[Khayness]

Saibh wrote...

Depends. Can they shield themselves against guns? If they can, guns are useless. Mages can set traps, shield, heal, buff...

Even medieval armors protected you from gunfire in the 16th century. And the Ottoman Empire is similar to the quinari expansion.

[Grommash94]

tmp7704 wrote...

Grommash94 wrote...

The codex isn't canon.

However if you want to invoke logic, in this particular example the history is being written by the victors and if it's these victors who write "in the end they didn't have our sheer numbers" then the number advantage appears to be considerable factor, one that even the victors had to acknowledge. Even if there's bias in the documents then it would work in the opposite direction -- it would be more positive for the winners to claim they didn't outnumber the enemy by much if at all, as it'd make them see more heroic.

The entry:
In the 30th year of the Steel Age, the first qunari ships were
sighted off the coast of Par Vollen in the far north, marking the
beginning of a new age of warfare.


History calls this the First Qunari War, but it was mostly a one-sided
bloodbath, with the qunari advancing far into the mainland. Qunari
warriors in glittering steel armor carved through armies with ease.
Their cannons, the likes of which our ancestors had never seen, reduced
city walls to rubble in a matter of seconds.


Stories of qunari occupation vary greatly. It is said they dismantled
families and sent captives to "learning camps" for indoctrination into
their religion. Those who refused to cooperate disappeared to mines or
construction camps.


For every tale of suffering, however, there is another of enlightenment
deriving from something called the "Qun." This is either a philosophical
code or a written text that governs all aspects of qunari life, perhaps
both. One converted Seheran reported pity for those who refused to
embrace the Qun, as if the conquerors had led him to a sort of
self-discovery. "For all my life, I followed the Maker wherever his path
led me," he wrote, "but in the Qun I have found the means to travel my
own path."


It has been said that the most complete way to wipe out a people is not
with blades but with books. Thankfully, a world that had repelled four
Blights would not easily bow to a foreign aggressor. And so the Exalted
Marches began.


The greatest advantage of the Chantry-led forces was the Circle of Magi.
For all their technology, the qunari appeared to harbor great hatred
for magic. Faced with cannons, the Chantry responded with lightning and
balls of fire.


The qunari armies lacked the sheer numbers of humanity. So many were
slain at Marnas Pell, on both sides, that the Veil is said to be
permanently sundered, the ruins still plagued by restless corpses. But
each year, the Chantry pushed further and further into the qunari lines,
although local converts to the Qun proved difficult to return to
Andraste's teachings.


By the end of the Storm Age, the qunari were truly pushed back. Rivain
was the only human land that retained the qunari religion after being
freed, and its rulers attempted to barter a peace. Most human lands
signed the Llomerryn Accord, excepting the Tevinter Imperium. It is a
shaky peace that has lasted to this day.



Both numbers and magic seem to have had a part here. Also, Kordaris, if cannons>mages, then why does Minathrous still stand? Tevinter depends on magic to hold the Qunari back, and they have no aid from other nations, so the numbers argument isn't as valid.

[Saibh]

Kordaris wrote...

Jimmy Fury wrote...
Both quotes were in response to me stating that clockwork is an equally impressive advancement that puts dwarves in the same realm as Qunari.

Clockwork only requires advancements in maths, engineering and perhaps a bit in metallurgy(although you can make non metal clocks from water and stones and such). Thus chemistry is missing which is required for firerarms possesed by qunari.

How do you define "advanced"? Really, now, their cannons didn't win a war they faught, for all of their supposed learnings.

I'll also point out that, with the presence of mages, many advances are made obselete. They have a ready equivalent to cannons, so they don't need to invent them.