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Game Informer: A Look At The Qunari, Evolved


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#1301
David Gaider

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Biotic Budah wrote...
As Nancy Grace would say "BS". I realize as a writer you feel ownership of the game, but in your rebuttal there on the first page of this thread it's almost like you're saying "It's my game and I'll do what I want with it, NYAH!" Go eat a snickers bar, you're starting to sound like a diva.


Being unapologetic does not make you a diva.

Being talented makes you a diva.
 
If someone wants to call me a diva, I'm okay with that. Posted Image


I understand wanting to be creative, but for example, we meet Mr. Spock from planet Vulcan. He has pointy ears. On another episode we meet another Vulcan, but this guy wears pimp clothes and calls himself A pimp named Slickback. Some Vulcans are scientists, others are pimps. Sounds crazy huh? Given what most geeks know about vulcans.


You know plenty about vulcans. It would indeed seem strange to have that happen now, or to suddenly discover that klingons have an armored carapace on their forehead even when the viewer had no earlier indication this was so (wacky!). The fact that you don't like the change doesn't change the fact that your exposure to the race was limited. That's all I've said.


Putting horns on a race that had no indication of having them is just plain wacky. Sten was not the only Qunari we met in the game. What about Jarvy and Tenanga at the Pearl? Or the other assorted Qunari mercenaries through out? Not a doggone one had horns! What's next? Deadpool gonna have optic bla........oh. I mean Indiana Jones gonna be battling alien......no, wait, wait...I know, 10 foot dwarves!


As I've said elsewhere, nobody's talking about making dwarves 10 feet tall or putting unicorn horns on elves. That's reductio ad absurdum, plain and simple.


The point is you are already making a big creative change by dictating the race of our character for one example. I think the Qunari are hardcore enough given the dialogue and backstory for the Qunari, but to explain that some Qunari have horns, some do not, that dog just don't hunt son. All I gotta say is, you better have a pretty dang good story and even better game play or you risk alienating your core fan base.


The artistic style of the game is changing, which will change how everything looks to a point. The change to the qunari (and, for example, the darkspawn) is more significant. Considering the host of other changes also applying to the game's overall style, if horns on a qunari are the worst complaint that the "core fan base" can lodge I think they'll survive.

If you wish to take that as a "diva-like" comment, then by all means do so. I adore our fans (if I didn't, I wouldn't be here at all) and it doesn't upset me at all if some of them choose to take umbrage with any changes we make. We are changing things around. Plenty of things, for a lot of reasons-- at least one of which is because we thought some things needed changing. The important stuff, to us, will remain the same. And that's simply the way it is.

Modifié par David Gaider, 04 août 2010 - 03:09 .


#1302
SoR82

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Morroian wrote...

Biotic Budah wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Honestly I don't see how the change in qunari is a big creative change. Its a change in art style and its been done for good reasons.


Ok, so we should have elves without pointy ears but instead a horn like a unicorn? Like I said, we saw over a hundred Qunari in the game, they all looked the same to me. You mean to tell me that no one in Thedas has seen one with horns in 300 years?


Obviously there's a point at which such changes do matter, which David Gaider even referred to in one of his posts, but they've got a good reason for making the change and have come up with a reasonable ingame explanation. Like he said with elves they are constrained by tradition but the Qunari are entirely their creation. I guess you could interpret their portrayal so far as having some inconsistencies with the explanation but like I said its just not a big enough change in the game to matter to me, especially if they are doing it to improve the game.


Really? what was this good reason Im aware this is a big thread and I may have missed it but I havent see a reason.... good or otherwise other than "we wanted them to be different".... yeah well clowns are different. I havent seen an ingame explanation beyond "some have some havent". But critically  I fail to see how making a noble and honourable race beastial will improve the game.


David Gaider wrote...


The artistic style of the game
is changing, which will change how everything looks to a point. The
change to the qunari (and, for example, the darkspawn) is more
significant. Considering the host of other changes also applying to the
game's overall style, if horns on a qunari are the worst complaint that
the "core fan base" can lodge I think they'll survive.


Oh dont worry im sure there will be more complaints to come...

Modifié par SoR82, 04 août 2010 - 03:30 .


#1303
Woodstock-TC

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David Gaider wrote...
 
If you wish to take that as a "diva-like" comment, then by all means do so. I adore our fans (if I didn't, I wouldn't be here at all) and it doesn't upset me at all if some of them choose to take umbrage with any changes we make. We are changing things around. Plenty of things, for a lot of reasons-- at least one of which is because we thought some things needed changing. The important stuff, to us, will remain the same. And that's simply the way it is.


it really must be a delight to work in the gaming industry :-)
I just imagine holding that kind of speech to our stakeholders at the next review.

br,
wood

#1304
David Gaider

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Woodstock-TC wrote...
it really must be a delight to work in the gaming industry :-)
I just imagine holding that kind of speech to our stakeholders at the next review.

If that's meant to be a comparison between what's going on here in these forums and being "reviewed" by stakeholders, it's an interesting take on things-- I'll give you that.

#1305
eyesofastorm

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I've done a good job of avoiding getting sucked into all of this thus far, but it seems I haven't been able to let go all the way just yet. I realize that the gamers I know mostly belong to a single demographic, but it is a demographic that tends to be long-time, loyal Bioware fans and literally everyone that I have talked to ranges from disappointed to crushed with the direction Bioware has chosen to take with the second entry into the Dragon Age franchise in terms of the artistic style, the gameplay shift, the static PC, and the decision to walk away from the story and characters of the Origins. It seems that these changes were not made for the fans of Origins... those that have played the game, but for those who didn't play it. And that is disappointing. It's like you are saying to the long time fans, the ones who have been loyal all along, that they aren't enough for you and as such, they will be balled up and thrown in the trash. I know you think you are in the pursuit of better business, but I have a hard time believing this is a good way of doing business in the long term.

#1306
Itkovian

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SoR82 wrote...

Really? what was this good reason Im aware this is a big thread and I may have missed it but I havent see a reason.... good or otherwise other than "we wanted them to be different".... yeah well clowns are different. I havent seen an ingame explanation beyond "some have some havent". But critically  I fail to see how making a noble and honourable race beastial will improve the game.


Qunari are a noble and honourable race?

I think their idea of honour varies greatly from the normal standard you would see in the rest of Thedas. Now, I find Sten is a good character for sure, not at all the evil monster he looks to be at first. But the Qunari are more than just Sten.

Indeed, just going by what Sten says, we can also say that by our own standards of morality Qunari are sexist, ruthless, and heartless. Their society is also extremely oppressive , a sort of communism carried to the furthest extreme possible where individual freedom are barely nonexistant (to the point of brainwashing children into seeing such freedom as abhorrent). Never mind what they do to their mages puts the Chantry to shame.

That said, I find them fascinating, a truly unique society within Thedas, but let's not get carried away. :)

Itkovian

Modifié par Itkovian, 04 août 2010 - 05:21 .


#1307
jpdipity

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Sorry, I haven't read all 53 pages of this thread.



Personally, I like the change. Sten looked a bit like a drug addict to me rather than a distinct species. My first impression when I saw Sten was "great, they make the only major black character look like a crack addict." Sten was one of the first morph replacements for a companion that I used because of it.



There are still some distinct similarites - the facial structure looks quite a bit like Sten and they are larger than humans with a pale sort of odd skin color. Clearly some attempt at keeping things different, but familar was made.



Horns don't bother me because Gaider offered a good explanation. It makes sense that we have not yet seen a horned Qunari since the Qunari in Fereldan likely would have removed their horns since they appear to live outside of the Qunari culture.



I look forward to seeing the elves since they were such a departure from descriptions in the book.

#1308
Woodstock-TC

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David Gaider wrote...

If that's meant to be a comparison between what's going on here in these forums and being "reviewed" by stakeholders, it's an interesting take on things-- I'll give you that.


no hard feelings. horns or no horns thats a smaller (although not unimportant) detail. im sure youre going generally in a good and refreshing direction and do a tremondous work at that. (which should be also required if you want to reach the anticipated copies-sold target afterall :-)
http://social.biowar...6483/19#3344134

Modifié par Woodstock-TC, 04 août 2010 - 06:26 .


#1309
Guest_jojimbo_*

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horns ummm,
how about tails on the elves :) failing that we need green hats and pointy brown shoes at least

Modifié par jojimbo, 04 août 2010 - 06:29 .


#1310
RPGrogue

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to be honest, the gray skin and tallness was enough, but ill live with it. But i better see some quni WITHOUT horns too, it would be silly if we didnt, we know they exist




#1311
Saibh

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RPGrogue wrote...

to be honest, the gray skin and tallness was enough, but ill live with it. But i better see some quni WITHOUT horns too, it would be silly if we didnt, we know they exist


I imagine we'll see Tal-Vashoth, who get their horns removed. Whether we'll meet another Sten...well, I don't think that's necessary, all things considered.

#1312
Bryy_Miller

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Biotic Budah wrote...

 I realize as a writer you feel ownership of the game


If the people that MADE the game don't own it, who does? You? LOL.

Go eat a snickers bar, you're starting to sound like a diva.


Great way to be taken seriously.

#1313
joriandrake

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Bryy_Miller wrote...

Biotic Budah wrote...

 I realize as a writer you feel ownership of the game


If the people that MADE the game don't own it, who does? You? LOL.


both, the developers and players can both call the game their own, and it is good if the people say it is their game as it means they connect to it, this is what made many games successfull including Baldur's Gate, Command & Conquer, or Gabriel Knight

#1314
Sable Rhapsody

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joriandrake wrote...

both, the developers and players can both call the game their own, and it is good if the people say it is their game as it means they connect to it, this is what made many games successfull including Baldur's Gate, Command & Conquer, or Gabriel Knight


True to a certain point.  But the creative license and the property still belongs to the devs.  Now obviously this kind of entitlement has also given us junk like the prequel trilogies and much of the Star Wars EU, but the devs have a right to feel ownership of their IP since, ya know, THEY DESIGNED IT.

And we bring up Baldur's Gate.  OK.  Baldur's Gate had a fixed protagonist, backstory, and extremely linear plot.  In fact, the only bit of choice BG offers over DA2 is one of race, which NEVER COMES INTO PLAY.  Baldur's Gate had significant redesigns, artistic and otherwise, between 1 and 2.  Hell, Baldur's Gate even canonized certain things from 1 to 2 and didn't import any player decisions.  And guess what?  No one cares.  I've yet to meet a person on these forums who didn't love the BG series.  Devs make changes all the time, and they're largely for the better, and we the fanbase largely indulge in some wankage before most of us get over it and just enjoy the game.

#1315
Bryy_Miller

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They can call it theirs, sure. But it's not. That's just the truth. They did not put in any of the legwork to create it. They only own a copy.

#1316
captain.subtle

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Called: The Emotional blackmail card (runs away)

#1317
Sable Rhapsody

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Bryy_Miller wrote...

They can call it theirs, sure. But it's not. That's just the truth. They did not put in any of the legwork to create it. They only own a copy.


Well, it's kinda like the debate over "ownership" of a book.  Or a very popular movie or TV IP.  At a certain point, the fans do pour a lot of time and effort into it.  They write fanfiction, design mods, indulge in silly forum debates, etc. :lol:  They care about the IP and invest emotion and life into it.  Simply writing that off doesn't seem fair either.  

#1318
Bryy_Miller

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We're getting into the semantic gray area of sentimentality and "liking things" now, which I don't think there is any real answer for.

#1319
Riona45

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Biotic Budah wrote...
The point is you are already making a big creative change by dictating the race of our character for one example. I think the Qunari are hardcore enough given the dialogue and backstory for the Qunari, but to explain that some Qunari have horns, some do not, that dog just don't hunt son. All I gotta say is, you better have a pretty dang good story and even better game play or you risk alienating your core fan base.


What, over qunari having horns?  I could be wrong but I doubt that will be a deal-breaker for most potential consumers.

PS:  I feel the same way about the human PC.

#1320
David Gaider

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Sable Rhapsody wrote...
Devs make changes all the time, and they're largely for the better, and we the fanbase largely indulge in some wankage before most of us get over it and just enjoy the game.

True, though not everyone who was a fan of DAO is going to enjoy DA2. I think that's a given-- we're making a lot of changes, and they're not going to be to everyone's liking. That's true between any sequel-- you're going to win some new fans and lose some old ones, and that's probably doubly true when you make changes to the "formula". Everyone's free to declare what they do or don't like and what they'd prefer to see (like we could stop them), but treating it like it's a broken promise is, I think, taking that a bit too far.

#1321
Riona45

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SoR82 wrote...
But critically  I fail to see how making a noble and honourable race beastial will improve the game.


Well, it's only a matter of opinion that qunari are "noble and honorable"--there are legitimate reasons given in the lore not to see them that way.  For that matter, I don't understand why having horns or other animal-like qualities would necessarily make "noble" characters less "noble."  Such qualities are not inherently "ignoble" or "dishonorable."

Modifié par Riona45, 04 août 2010 - 10:43 .


#1322
Bryy_Miller

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Riona45 wrote...

SoR82 wrote...
But critically  I fail to see how making a noble and honourable race beastial will improve the game.


Well, it's only a matter of opinion that qunari are "noble and honorable"--there are legitimate reasons given in the lore not to see them that way.  For that matter, I don't understand why having horns or other animal-like qualities would necessarily make "noble" characters less "noble."  Such qualities are not inherently "ignoble" or "dishonorable."


Seriously. To add to that, I didn't view the Qunari as noble at all. Honorable, yes, but that's only because they have no goddamn feelings, and follow orders unquestionably. That's not being noble. 

#1323
Riona45

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eyesofastorm wrote...
It seems that these changes were not made for the fans of Origins... those that have played the game, but for those who didn't play it. And that is disappointing. It's like you are saying to the long time fans, the ones who have been loyal all along, that they aren't enough for you and as such, they will be balled up and thrown in the trash.


I am a fan of Origins as well as a longtime player of BioWare games--since the first Baldur's Gate game, in fact.  I am not perturbed by DA2.Posted Image  I'm also not the only one.

#1324
DPB

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Riona45 wrote...

eyesofastorm wrote...
It seems that these changes were not made for the fans of Origins... those that have played the game, but for those who didn't play it. And that is disappointing. It's like you are saying to the long time fans, the ones who have been loyal all along, that they aren't enough for you and as such, they will be balled up and thrown in the trash.


I am a fan of Origins as well as a longtime player of BioWare games--since the first Baldur's Gate game, in fact.  I am not perturbed by DA2.Posted Image  I'm also not the only one.


No, you're not the only one.

#1325
andar91

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Riona45 wrote...

eyesofastorm wrote...
It seems that these changes were not made for the fans of Origins... those that have played the game, but for those who didn't play it. And that is disappointing. It's like you are saying to the long time fans, the ones who have been loyal all along, that they aren't enough for you and as such, they will be balled up and thrown in the trash.


I am a fan of Origins as well as a longtime player of BioWare games--since the first Baldur's Gate game, in fact.  I am not perturbed by DA2.Posted Image  I'm also not the only one.

Posted ImagePosted ImageYep. I've been playing Bioware games since BG2 (admitedly not all of them) and I'm happy about DA2 so far.