18744 réponses à ce sujet

[RiptideX1090]

NuclearBuddha wrote...

I try to give him the benefit of the doubt.  He did a lot for Tali.  But like many parents, he failed to understand there were other things she wanted.  Does this make him flawed?  Yes.  Does it invalidate what he did try to do?  No.

I prefer to follow her lead:  she loved and respected him, hungered for his approval, and wanted him remembered for the good he did, rather than the bad.

There's being a neglectful parent, being socially inept, and being strict ect.

But then there is Rael. Tali did EVERYTHING he ever wanted her to. She did MORE. Go find geth and dissect them for Pilgrimage? No problem. Saved the galaxy and fought a ground war while alone on an alien ship? Why not? Go into hostile territory with an armada of enemy ships parked nearby? Not even hesitation.

The least the man could have done was say he was proud. He could have said it ONCE. Just once. Or a simple I love you. Should Tali respect him as her CO? Of course. As her elder? Definately. She clearly loved him. Her actions show that.

But I stand by what I've said. Rael was unworthy of that love. He did absolutely nothing to earn it. Respect? Definately. Loyalty and love? No. That Tali is still able to express that to him is nothing short of remarkable, and in human psychology, possibly unhealthy. But Rael himself? He isn't worthy of pity, or compassion. He's a tragic figure. Not a sympathetic one.

[NuclearBuddha]

uhdnrt wrote...
The thing is, we don't get his side of the story, we can only presume from the info that we have.  From listening to Tali.  From information that he had his own ship, and was not there while Tali was raised.  These factoids lend to him being an emotionally unavailable parental figure.  This makes him a bad parent.

I don't give him the benefit of the doubt. I pity him. I admire Tali for having the strength to be better than her father.

I got a different image from ME1.  Tali says her mother was in the background, not her father.  I'll give you the emotionally unavailable part, but I think he was around.

Do you have a citation for the own ship part?

[Someone With Mass]

Kikaimegami wrote...

NuclearBuddha wrote...

Creepy Legion is creepy.

More like "Creepy Shepard is creepy". He's the one who told Legion to use it

And yet he keeps telling everyone that looting the dead is a bad thing.

[Titanium Man]

RiptideX1090 wrote...

NuclearBuddha wrote...

I try to give him the benefit of the doubt.  He did a lot for Tali.  But like many parents, he failed to understand there were other things she wanted.  Does this make him flawed?  Yes.  Does it invalidate what he did try to do?  No.

I prefer to follow her lead:  she loved and respected him, hungered for his approval, and wanted him remembered for the good he did, rather than the bad.

There's being a neglectful parent, being socially inept, and being strict ect.

But then there is Rael. Tali did EVERYTHING he ever wanted her to. She did MORE. Go find geth and dissect them for Pilgrimage? No problem. Saved the galaxy and fought a ground war while alone on an alien ship? Why not? Go into hostile territory with an armada of enemy ships parked nearby? Not even hesitation.

The least the man could have done was say he was proud. He could have said it ONCE. Just once. Or a simple I love you. Should Tali respect him as her CO? Of course. As her elder? Definately. She clearly loved him. Her actions show that.

But I stand by what I've said. Rael was unworthy of that love. He did absolutely nothing to earn it. Respect? Definately. Loyalty and love? No. That Tali is still able to express that to him is nothing short of remarkable, and in human psychology, possibly unhealthy. But Rael himself? He isn't worthy of pity, or compassion. He's a tragic figure. Not a sympathetic one.

I agree with Tali Fanatic #4.  Rael dropped the ball here.

[Phil725]

uhdnrt wrote...

Phil725 wrote...
Just out of curiousity, how does peace not look probable?  You have the geth stating openly that they are open to peace for the first time, and the quarians have no option aside from accepting that.  It will take some work to hammer out details, but it seems basically already done to me.

At Tali's trial, the actual plot is the Raal'Koris trying to erode support for the quarians that want to return to open warfare.  Implying that ware is the majority/popular opinion.  So you have one race that wants peace, but is ready and able to annhialate the opposition should war break out. There is no overt emotional reaction to the geth's decision; purel logic.  Peace or war does not really affect the geth.  Based on the numbers implied by Legion, the quarians would likley be a speedbump before the Reapers.

At the point the quarians are at, survival is the primary option.  They are also an emotional race - peace will be infiniftely ard for the quarians to agree to.  They seem to feel that they have been wronged and persecuted for centuries, due to the geth.  That sort of hatred will not be easy to let go of.

Getting both sides to agree to work against the reapers is feasable.  Lasting peace (ie, epilogue)?  Nearly impossible unless Shepard works his ULB/LLR magic.  And that is not satisfactory to me - Shepard should not have it that easy.

The thing that the quarians support above all else is reclaiming the homeworld.  That is why Gerrel has support, and Korris has to try morally bereft underhanded tactics to get support/erode support from others.  The quarians simply believe that war is the only option.  They believe this for one reason, they don't think peace is on the table.  They've either never asked the geth, or the geth never responded with more than killing ambassadors.  Shep is currently the only one that knows about the peace option.  Once this is made common knowledge to the quarians, that 99% chance of having your species eradicated in a meaningless war starts to look a lot less appealing.

Whether the quarians hate the geth or not is debatable.  I don't think they do.  It seems to me like they feel the entire blame for the Morning War is on their shoulders, and the geth had every right to defend themselves.  If the geth went off to live in another star cluster, and never bothered the quarians, I can't see the population as a whole finding a need to hunt them down purely out of revenge.  Lasting peace is easily achievable if the conflict between the two is based entirely around the planet. 

[TheAmazingOne-]

Phil725 wrote...
Just out of curiousity, how does peace not look probable?  You have the geth stating openly that they are open to peace for the first time, and the quarians have no option aside from accepting that.  It will take some work to hammer out details, but it seems basically already done to me.

Extremists like Daro'Xen would ruin the Peace Option.
She s not happy to just get in peace with the Geth. She wants to destroy them

[Kikaimegami]

You don't have to shout at someone to abuse them emotionally...

[NuclearBuddha]

RiptideX1090 wrote...
There's being a neglectful parent, being socially inept, and being strict ect.

But then there is Rael. Tali did EVERYTHING he ever wanted her to. She did MORE. Go find geth and dissect them for Pilgrimage? No problem. Saved the galaxy and fought a ground war while alone on an alien ship? Why not? Go into hostile territory with an armada of enemy ships parked nearby? Not even hesitation.

The least the man could have done was say he was proud. He could have said it ONCE. Just once. Or a simple I love you. Should Tali respect him as her CO? Of course. As her elder? Definately. She clearly loved him. Her actions show that.

But I stand by what I've said. Rael was unworthy of that love. He did absolutely nothing to earn it. Respect? Definately. Loyalty and love? No. That Tali is still able to express that to him is nothing short of remarkable, and in human psychology, possibly unhealthy. But Rael himself? He isn't worthy of pity, or compassion. He's a tragic figure. Not a sympathetic one.

If Tali thought he was worthy of it, and not knowing more than I do currently, I'll assume she has a better perspective on it than I.

[Kalashnikov]

RiptideX1090 wrote...

NuclearBuddha wrote...

I try to give him the benefit of the doubt.  He did a lot for Tali.  But like many parents, he failed to understand there were other things she wanted.  Does this make him flawed?  Yes.  Does it invalidate what he did try to do?  No.

I prefer to follow her lead:  she loved and respected him, hungered for his approval, and wanted him remembered for the good he did, rather than the bad.

There's being a neglectful parent, being socially inept, and being strict ect.

But then there is Rael. Tali did EVERYTHING he ever wanted her to. She did MORE. Go find geth and dissect them for Pilgrimage? No problem. Saved the galaxy and fought a ground war while alone on an alien ship? Why not? Go into hostile territory with an armada of enemy ships parked nearby? Not even hesitation.

The least the man could have done was say he was proud. He could have said it ONCE. Just once. Or a simple I love you. Should Tali respect him as her CO? Of course. As her elder? Definately. She clearly loved him. Her actions show that.

But I stand by what I've said. Rael was unworthy of that love. He did absolutely nothing to earn it. Respect? Definately. Loyalty and love? No. That Tali is still able to express that to him is nothing short of remarkable, and in human psychology, possibly unhealthy. But Rael himself? He isn't worthy of pity, or compassion. He's a tragic figure. Not a sympathetic one.

look i dont think we can say all this without a full backstory on rael. 

[uhdnrt]

Kalashnikov wrote...
you obviously know nothing of parenthood. just because he doesnt show love doesnt mean he doesnt feel it
edit: k sorry just had my button pushed <_<

not showing love to his child?  That makes him a very, very bad parent.  And considering how social the quarians are, nearly unforgivable. Listening to Tali, I personally get the impression that Rael barely even tried to act like a Dad. So I pity him for being a failure as a parent. As Shepard says: Tali deserved better.

At least she can get better. Just not from Rael.

[Someone With Mass]

Kikaimegami wrote...

You don't have to shout at someone to abuse them emotionally...

Baby kicking, hobo-burning and the genocidal Renegade Shepard is a prime example of this.

[InHarmsWay]

uhdnrt wrote...

Kalashnikov wrote...

Dude i get what your talking about.  Yes rael was a d-bag. but he. still. is. her. DAD. no matter how much he mistreated her and no matter how much he abused her he still loved her. he was just either too stupid or too weak to show it. and she still loved him. showing disrespect to her father in a time like that would only alienate her against you. and no matter what anyone was in life, in death; you honor them.

Failpost.  He is her biological father.  And Tali clearly loves him.  Much like many children with an absentee parent, all she really wanted was his love and approval.

This does not make him a Dad. Dad's would take the time to let their children see their face. They would be on the same ship as the child is growing up. They are supportive, and actively involved in the child's life.

None of that applies to Rael.

He is her father, yes. But not her dad. Do not confuse the two terms. And yes, you did find one of my rage buttons on this.

Okay, Kalashnikov. I'm siding with uhdnrt here. Fathers don't abuse their children. Punish for misbehaviour, yes, but not abuse. He neglected her and showed like affection. People who dislike or hate (two different levels) Rael were not asking him to completely abandon his post as an Admiral or even neglect his duty. All he really had to do was tell Tali he loved her and he was proud of her. That's it. I don't buy the "he was too stupid or too weak to say it" argument. A real father or dad as undnrt would say it, would not be ashamed to say they loved their child and when that child excels they would tell them they were proud. Tali didn't just do a good job on her Pilgrimage, she brought back information that would drastically change the future of the Flotilla. Even that didn't engender "I love you, my daughter" or "You've made me so proud". That is unforgivable.

[Kalashnikov]

uhdnrt wrote...

Kalashnikov wrote...
you obviously know nothing of parenthood. just because he doesnt show love doesnt mean he doesnt feel it
edit: k sorry just had my button pushed <_<

not showing love to his child?  That makes him a very, very bad parent.  And considering how social the quarians are, nearly unforgivable. Listening to Tali, I personally get the impression that Rael barely even tried to act like a Dad. So I pity him for being a failure as a parent. As Shepard says: Tali deserved better.

At least she can get better. Just not from Rael.

look you and rip are repeating the same thing, how bad of a parent rael is. YES i agree he was a HORRIBLE  parent. BUT the question is, did he love her? YES. does that mean you kick around his dead body? NO. 

[uhdnrt]

NuclearBuddha wrote...

Do you have a citation for the own ship part?

The Alerai was his ship, yes?  Been a while since I played ME1.

[Phil725]

TheAmazingOne- wrote...

Phil725 wrote...
Just out of curiousity, how does peace not look probable?  You have the geth stating openly that they are open to peace for the first time, and the quarians have no option aside from accepting that.  It will take some work to hammer out details, but it seems basically already done to me.

Extremists like Daro'Xen would ruin the Peace Option.
She s not happy to just get in peace with the Geth. She wants to destroy them

I'd argue that its people like Xen that will give us the conflict needed to keep this from being an open and shut deal.  I don't see how her views would be nearly far ranging enough among the quarians, or that we wouldn't be able to stop her if they were.  At least, not to the point where it actually jeopardizes peace.

[Kikaimegami]

Kalashnikov wrote...

look you and rip are repeating the same thing, how bad of a parent rael is. YES i agree he was a HORRIBLE  parent. BUT the question is, did he love her? YES. does that mean you kick around his dead body? NO. 

I see no proof that he loved her. If he did, he sure as hell never even gave a slight inclination of doing so.

Modifié par Kikaimegami, 30 juillet 2010 - 08:36 .

[NuclearBuddha]

And do we have any proof she didn't get a "good job" from him after the pilgrimage? I just want to make sure we're not removing words from his mouth. I mean, we know he wasted his last words on orders, but does that exclude kind words at some other point in her life? I'm not recalling any categorical statements in-game.

[TheAmazingOne-]

Kikaimegami wrote...

Kalashnikov wrote...

look you and rip are repeating the same thing, how bad of a parent rael is. YES i agree he was a HORRIBLE  parent. BUT the question is, did he love her? YES. does that mean you kick around his dead body? NO. 

I see no proof that he loved her. If he did, he sure as hell never even gave a slight inclination of doing so.

No proofs... But actually he wanted to give her a home back on their Homeland... That's a Proof Kikai...

[NuclearBuddha]

uhdnrt wrote...

NuclearBuddha wrote...

Do you have a citation for the own ship part?

The Alerai was his ship, yes?  Been a while since I played ME1.

Oh.  See, there's no clue at all what ship he lived on.  His full name is never given.  I assumed his primary home was the Rayya since that's where Tali was born.

[Someone With Mass]

Is this something we have to do every day?



Yes, we all know and can agree that Rael was a royal ****** for not being there for Tali, both physically and emotionally.



Can we move on? Beyond Alarei and all that?

[Phil725]

Kikaimegami wrote...

Kalashnikov wrote...

look you and rip are repeating the same thing, how bad of a parent rael is. YES i agree he was a HORRIBLE  parent. BUT the question is, did he love her? YES. does that mean you kick around his dead body? NO. 

I see no proof that he loved her. If he did, he sure as hell never even gave a slight inclination of doing so.

I feel like he loved her in the way he talked about her.  He specifically mentions wanting nothing bad to happen to Tali based on his actions, and I got the feeling that everything he was doing on the Alerei was what he thought was best for Tali.

I think its pretty obvious that he failed as a parent, the fact that Tali openly questioned whether he loved her or not is all the proof you need there.  But I do think its pretty clear that he did love her personally.  How much you want to condemn him for failing to show it is a different topic that varies from person to person (and can go to pretty extreme levels judging from the thread.)

[NuclearBuddha]

Calinstel wrote...
Don't forget, Raan also mentions that Rael was for the fleet after the trial I believe.  Nothing for Tali, just the fleet.

Wasn't Raan's point that Rael wanted a strong Fleet to leave to his daughter?