18744 réponses à ce sujet

[Kalashnikov]

Kikaimegami wrote...

Kalashnikov wrote...

look you and rip are repeating the same thing, how bad of a parent rael is. YES i agree he was a HORRIBLE  parent. BUT the question is, did he love her? YES. does that mean you kick around his dead body? NO. 

I see no proof that he loved her. If he did, he sure as hell never even gave a slight inclination of doing so.

the message he left for her. it proves he was too weak, too stupid, or just someting else might have happened (maybe something involving tali's mother) that made him that way. YES he did love her. but he didnt show it. and for that i condemn him. the point i was trying to make is that under no circumstances do you show such disrespect to a dead body

[RiptideX1090]

NuclearBuddha wrote...

RiptideX1090 wrote...
There's being a neglectful parent, being socially inept, and being strict ect.

But then there is Rael. Tali did EVERYTHING he ever wanted her to. She did MORE. Go find geth and dissect them for Pilgrimage? No problem. Saved the galaxy and fought a ground war while alone on an alien ship? Why not? Go into hostile territory with an armada of enemy ships parked nearby? Not even hesitation.

The least the man could have done was say he was proud. He could have said it ONCE. Just once. Or a simple I love you. Should Tali respect him as her CO? Of course. As her elder? Definately. She clearly loved him. Her actions show that.

But I stand by what I've said. Rael was unworthy of that love. He did absolutely nothing to earn it. Respect? Definately. Loyalty and love? No. That Tali is still able to express that to him is nothing short of remarkable, and in human psychology, possibly unhealthy. But Rael himself? He isn't worthy of pity, or compassion. He's a tragic figure. Not a sympathetic one.

If Tali thought he was worthy of it, and not knowing more than I do currently, I'll assume she has a better perspective on it than I.

I disagree. Tali is part of the problem. She's too close to it to have an outsider's opinion. She's the child. She wants her father to love her. Desperately. It's evident in how far she's willing to go to get it. This is also why giving the evidence to the board ends up killing her. She didn't get the support from her dad, and that leaves only Shepard. Betraying her leaves her traumatized, thus, unloyal. If I've done the math right, this should ultimately lead to her death on the Suicide mission regardless of how you do it. You could interpret this as her simply having nothing else left to live for, and it actually makes sense. Her people stabbed her in the back. Her father is gone, and how he truly felt about her is forever a mystery, and if Shepard betrays her, that leaves nothing for her. Tali clearly needed that support and that love/friendship from someone. It's the drive behind her entire character. That Rael failed so utterly in providing the one thing his Daughter truly needed, marks him as a terrible father in my books. If you're so far removed from the person you supposedly care about more than anything in the world, that you can even see that you're failing to give them the one thing they need due to negligence on your part, you clearly have a problem.

[TheAmazingOne-]

Phil725 wrote...
I'd argue that its people like Xen that will give us the conflict needed to keep this from being an open and shut deal.  I don't see how her views would be nearly far ranging enough among the quarians, or that we wouldn't be able to stop her if they were.  At least, not to the point where it actually jeopardizes peace.

Yeah... But think with me: Xen looks extremist, don't her? No compassion about Geth and everything..

[RiptideX1090]

Kalashnikov wrote...

Kikaimegami wrote...

Kalashnikov wrote...

look you and rip are repeating the same thing, how bad of a parent rael is. YES i agree he was a HORRIBLE  parent. BUT the question is, did he love her? YES. does that mean you kick around his dead body? NO. 

I see no proof that he loved her. If he did, he sure as hell never even gave a slight inclination of doing so.

the message he left for her. it proves he was too weak, too stupid, or just someting else might have happened (maybe something involving tali's mother) that made him that way. YES he did love her. but he didnt show it. and for that i condemn him. the point i was trying to make is that under no circumstances do you show such disrespect to a dead body

That was a poor joke on my end. As I said. I wouldn't actually have kicked the body.

Wanted to? HELL YES.

But I'd never have actually done it.

[NuclearBuddha]

Phil725 wrote...
I feel like he loved her in the way he talked about her.  He specifically mentions wanting nothing bad to happen to Tali based on his actions, and I got the feeling that everything he was doing on the Alerei was what he thought was best for Tali.

This is a good point.  He thought his work was important enough to take insane risks for, but wouldn't risk his daughter's good name to further it.

[Kikaimegami]

Sorry, I misworded that. I meant that he never gave any proof to Tali that he loved her.

[uhdnrt]

Kalashnikov wrote...
look you and rip are repeating the same thing, how bad of a parent rael is. YES i agree he was a HORRIBLE  parent. BUT the question is, did he love her? YES. does that mean you kick around his dead body? NO. 

Whoa whoa WHOA. At what point did I say it was ok to kick the body? I didn't. I am arguing against Rael being a sympathetic figure, and I am arguing that he was a failure as a parent.

I don't recall saying that this justified kicking his body. Maybe Rip did. That is his prerogative. Kicking a dead body does nothing - the person that needed to be kicked is no longer there, so it is a pointless (and if Tali is there, cruel) act.

As to whether he loved her or not. Can't say either way. We can only say, 100% factually, that Tali loved him.

[Phil725]

TheAmazingOne- wrote...

Phil725 wrote...
I'd argue that its people like Xen that will give us the conflict needed to keep this from being an open and shut deal.  I don't see how her views would be nearly far ranging enough among the quarians, or that we wouldn't be able to stop her if they were.  At least, not to the point where it actually jeopardizes peace.

Yeah... But think with me: Xen looks extremist, don't her? No compassion about Geth and everything..

Whenever your goal is to enslave an entire race in order to rise to galactic power, I think you count as extremist

I expect that she will need to be dealt with in some way in ME3 personally.

[TheAmazingOne-]

Kikaimegami wrote...

Sorry, I misworded that. I meant that he never gave any proof to Tali that he loved her.

You're right.... again.

[NuclearBuddha]

Calinstel wrote...
That's part of what I got out of it, but also that he was standoffish.  He cared for her but the way Raan put it, it seemed as if he may never have actually stated that love.

That right there is pretty much all I'm going for.

[RiptideX1090]

NuclearBuddha wrote...

And do we have any proof she didn't get a "good job" from him after the pilgrimage? I just want to make sure we're not removing words from his mouth. I mean, we know he wasted his last words on orders, but does that exclude kind words at some other point in her life? I'm not recalling any categorical statements in-game.

I believe the fact that Shala and Han have to reiterate the point that he'd have been proud of her speaks for itself.

And really. I get a Good Job when I do the dishes without being told. Tali's actions warrented a hell of a lot more than that.

[Kalashnikov]

uhdnrt wrote...

Kalashnikov wrote...
look you and rip are repeating the same thing, how bad of a parent rael is. YES i agree he was a HORRIBLE  parent. BUT the question is, did he love her? YES. does that mean you kick around his dead body? NO. 

Whoa whoa WHOA. At what point did I say it was ok to kick the body? I didn't. I am arguing against Rael being a sympathetic figure, and I am arguing that he was a failure as a parent.

I don't recall saying that this justified kicking his body. Maybe Rip did. That is his prerogative. Kicking a dead body does nothing - the person that needed to be kicked is no longer there, so it is a pointless (and if Tali is there, cruel) act.

As to whether he loved her or not. Can't say either way. We can only say, 100% factually, that Tali loved him.

right. i think we should move on from this now, we all agree rael failed as a father, neglecting his daughter, never telling her how much he loved her or how proud he was of her. we may disagree on whether he loved tali or not (which he did, as all parents eternally do:bandit:) but thats something that maybe will be explored further in ME3.

[Goat_Shepard]

So Shepard is everything Tali wanted from her father. Acceptance, approval, Tali spent her whole life trying to get that, doesn't every quarian?  Difference is, he's the highest ranking admiral on the Board, so Tali had professional reasons to seek his approval on top of emotional. Neither was given.

****.

[NuclearBuddha]

RiptideX1090 wrote...
I disagree. Tali is part of the problem. She's too close to it to have an outsider's opinion. She's the child. She wants her father to love her. Desperately. It's evident in how far she's willing to go to get it. This is also why giving the evidence to the board ends up killing her. She didn't get the support from her dad, and that leaves only Shepard. Betraying her leaves her traumatized, thus, unloyal. If I've done the math right, this should ultimately lead to her death on the Suicide mission regardless of how you do it. You could interpret this as her simply having nothing else left to live for, and it actually makes sense. Her people stabbed her in the back. Her father is gone, and how he truly felt about her is forever a mystery, and if Shepard betrays her, that leaves nothing for her. Tali clearly needed that support and that love/friendship from someone. It's the drive behind her entire character. That Rael failed so utterly in providing the one thing his Daughter truly needed, marks him as a terrible father in my books. If you're so far removed from the person you supposedly care about more than anything in the world, that you can even see that you're failing to give them the one thing they need due to negligence on your part, you clearly have a problem.

I feel a little arrogant saying that an outsider's opinion is more valid on such a personal subject.  All I'm arguing for is sympathy and respect for how she feels, and an attempt at understanding what Rael meant to her.

Parenting is hard work.

[RiptideX1090]

NuclearBuddha wrote...

RiptideX1090 wrote...
I disagree. Tali is part of the problem. She's too close to it to have an outsider's opinion. She's the child. She wants her father to love her. Desperately. It's evident in how far she's willing to go to get it. This is also why giving the evidence to the board ends up killing her. She didn't get the support from her dad, and that leaves only Shepard. Betraying her leaves her traumatized, thus, unloyal. If I've done the math right, this should ultimately lead to her death on the Suicide mission regardless of how you do it. You could interpret this as her simply having nothing else left to live for, and it actually makes sense. Her people stabbed her in the back. Her father is gone, and how he truly felt about her is forever a mystery, and if Shepard betrays her, that leaves nothing for her. Tali clearly needed that support and that love/friendship from someone. It's the drive behind her entire character. That Rael failed so utterly in providing the one thing his Daughter truly needed, marks him as a terrible father in my books. If you're so far removed from the person you supposedly care about more than anything in the world, that you can even see that you're failing to give them the one thing they need due to negligence on your part, you clearly have a problem.

I feel a little arrogant saying that an outsider's opinion is more valid on such a personal subject.  All I'm arguing for is sympathy and respect for how she feels, and an attempt at understanding what Rael meant to her.

Parenting is hard work.

I have no qualms with Tali's feelings on the subject. She loved her dad. She wanted him to love her back. What kid doesn't want that? I know I can sure as hell sympathize.

My only problem is that Rael failed his end of the equation. Utterly.

[uhdnrt]

Goat_Shepard wrote...

So Shepard is everything Tali wanted from her father. Acceptance, approval, Tali spent her whole life trying to get that, doesn't every quarian?  Difference is, he's the highest ranking admiral on the Board, so Tali had professional reasons to seek his approval on top of emotional. Neither was given.

****.

Yet another reason the romance hits so hard, methinks.  She did get better from Shepard.  Then, he is willing to admit that that he cares for her too.  That, after everything she has been through.  Someone loves her the way she wants.

So, Repostan! for relevance
----------------------------------------
Excerpt, Festivities and Revelations
----------------------------------------

Nearing the midday meal, Shepard found himself wandering the lower floor.    As he moved into Engineering, he could hear voices, slightly raised.

"I can't believe you waited this long to say something Ken," Gabby said in a huff.  "Years!  A girl can grow old waiting on you."

Ken raised his hands in defense.  "Now wait a bloody minute!  I thought ya knew already?"

"How was I supposed to know?!" she nearly screeched at him.

Lowering his hands, he held them out.  "Oh, c'mon!  After all this time, why else would I still want to be around a woman that busts my chops as much as you?" 

Shepard glanced over at Tali, who was trying to pay attention to her terminal as the two argued in the middle of engineering.  Gabby poked her finger at Ken.

"Well, why didn't you say it then?" she demanded.

"I'm a man," he said, as if that explained everything.  "We don't talk about this love-dovey tripe, or say 'I love you' first."

At this point, even Tali looked over at the engineers.  She did not notice the commander behind her.  Gabby was red in the face - but from embarrassment or rage it was impossible to tell.

"A real man would have said something!" She shouted as tears sprung to her eyes.

"Bollux," Ken said in frustration.  "Even the commander wouldn't say it first."  He waived at Tali.  "Isn't that right?"

Tali stood ram-rod straight. "That's not any of your..."

"Of course I love Tali."

"...your...busine.....What?!"

Everyone stopped and looked behind Tali.  The commander was standing just behind the quarian, looking over at her fondly.  Gabby grabbed Ken, and pulled him out of engineering.  She could see what was about to unfold, and wanted her overly gossipy partner out of earshot.

Tali simply kept staring.  It started to make Shepard nervous.

"Tali?"

She shook her head rapidly.  Tali walked up, grabbed his arm and dragged him to the elevator, punching the button for floor one viciously.  Shepard looked over at her, concerned.

"Tali?" He tried again.

She held up a finger to his lips to shush him.  She then stared impatiently at the elevator status as it ticked past floor 3 and on to floor 2.  She bounced on her toes, once, twice, and finally three times.

Shepard just leaned against the wall.  "At least tell me what's up with the bouncing," he said in an attempt to lighten the tenseness in the elevator.

"It's instinctive; when we're nervous, or angry, or excited, it's an easy way to expel some nervous energy," she replied distractedly.  "It's a holdover from when our people were predators on our planet thousands of years ago."  Shepard blinked in surprise, not expecting her to answer.

She then brought up her omni tool and typed in some commands as the elevator started to stop at the CIC.  "Come on you bosh'tet!" she grumbled.  There was a 'ding', and the elevator suddenly shot upwards; the inertial dampeners not completely able to compensate.

As the door opened, Tali grabbed Shepard again and pulled him toward the loft.   Shepard was not certain what to make of this behavior; it was certainly not what he expected from Tali.

"Decontamination Complete."

Still with a firm hold, Tali marched them both into the room and to the foot of the bed.  Finally, she let go of Shepard's hand and turned to face him.  As Shepard looked over at her and began to speak, she held up a hand. 

He stopped.  With a snap and a hiss, Tali removed her visor and tossed it on the couch.  Tears were still flowing freely out of her eyes.  Now Shepard was more than  concerned.  He tried again to speak but was interrupted with an outstretched hand.

"Say it again."

Blinking his eyes,  Shepard stared.  Then he smiled softly before he took her hand even as it reached for him.  He held her hand gently, then looked her directly in the eyes.

"I love you, Tali," were his heartfelt words.

Tali started to sob, but she forced herself to remain standing.  After a moment, she found her voice.

Slowly, she stammered out, " D-do you kn-know, d-do you have any idea, how long I have waited," and here her breath hitched and she choked back a sob. "For someone I love to say that to me?"  She started to move forward, then stopped.

"Please. Please Shepard," she said finally, her sobs tapering off, "Say it again."

He had no hesitation, especially now that he knew how important this was to her. 

"I love you Tali'Zorah vas Normandy nar Rayya."

In retrospect, I should have expected this, he thought as Tali pounced on him, knocking him on to the bed.  Then her lips met his, and the only thought he had was how much he loved the woman in his arms.  Soon after that thought, instincts took over them both and no more words were spoken.
-------------------

[FsDxRAGE]

WE ARE CLOSING IN!

[Kalashnikov]

Mukora wrote...

FsDxRAGE wrote...

WE ARE CLOSING IN!

... on what?

i think hes referring to the poll.
@mukora: whats the significance of the 42 in your sig? whats tali got to do with it

Modifié par Kalashnikov, 30 juillet 2010 - 08:53 .

[uhdnrt]

Kalashnikov wrote...
right. i think we should move on from this now, we all agree rael failed as a father, neglecting his daughter, never telling her how much he loved her or how proud he was of her. we may disagree on whether he loved tali or not (which he did, as all parents eternally do:bandit:) but thats something that maybe will be explored further in ME3.

Kal, you have a very, very naive view on parents if you actually believe that.  Not all fathers, or mothers, will be like that.  Reality will show you the truth of this. 

I have to give props to Bioware, for making realistic characters, even minor characters like Rael, that we can have good conversation about.

[NuclearBuddha]

I'd like to point out some of the things Rael did do for her:

Pushed her to excell. I realize this is like a dirty word to some people, but I know when I was a teen I'd never have gotten certain things accomplished (that have helped me throughout the years) without my parents riding my ass.

Got her the best training available. This we know from sergio taking the plunge and not hugging her. Rael wanted her to be able to protect herself when she was out there alone in the galaxy.

A strong Flotilla. Whether or not he delivered, this was his goal. We can dismiss this, but without it, she'd have nowhere to live. The Flotilla is shelter and life for the quarians. He wanted her to have a future. He was probably even grooming her for command.

Rannoch. He wanted her to have what he never could, a chance to breath fresh air without fear. Arguably, this is what drove him to his downfall.

He wanted her name clear. He knew he was playing with fire RE: the geth, and took measures that she wouldn't be directly involved.

Edit:
Her personality.  Like it or not, this appears to be somewhat the case.  Raan even points out that Tali is more like her father than she wants to admit.  She's selfless to a fault, like her father, who apparently ruined his relationship with his daughter in service to the Flotilla.  She's brave and willing to take risks for what she wants.  She pushes herself relentlessly, like he did, as shown by how she had to find the greatest pilgrimage gift ever.

Modifié par NuclearBuddha, 30 juillet 2010 - 08:56 .

[FsDxRAGE]

Mukora wrote...

Kalashnikov wrote...
@mukora: whats the significance of the 42 in your sig? whats tali got to do with it

The letters in her name add up to 42.

so much to learn;)

[Kalashnikov]

Mukora wrote...

Kalashnikov wrote...
@mukora: whats the significance of the 42 in your sig? whats tali got to do with it

The letters in her name add up to 42.

yes but whats so special about 42.