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[RiptideX1090]

TheAmazingOne- wrote...

RiptideX1090 wrote...

Skadhi1 wrote...

TheAmazingOne- wrote...

If Xen become obsessed for enslaving the Geth on ME3, what you guys think that Tali will do?

I don't sense any strong connection between Xen And Tali. 

Shoot her.

A lot.

Tali obviously doesn't hold Xen in high regard.

Just what i tought.

Yeah.

Though... I don't know. I guess it depends. You can tell Tali on the Alerai that you support wiping out the geth by any means necessary. Tali doesn't seem to openly object to "not letting the geth win". I bet you could convince her either way. If Xen had a reliable way to put the quarians on the homeworld and stop the geth? I have no doubts Tali would go along with it, especially if coached by Shepard.

Modifié par RiptideX1090, 30 juillet 2010 - 10:31 .

[TheAmazingOne-]

RiptideX1090 wrote...
Yeah.

Though... I don't know. I guess it depends. You can tell Tali on the Alerai that you support wiping out the geth by any means necessary. Tali doesn't seem to openly object to "not letting the geth win". I bet you could convince her either way. If Xen had a reliable way to put the quarians on the homeworld and stop the geth? I have no doubts Tali would go along with it, especially if coached by Shepard.

I see. But, on my opinion, i don't agree on destoying the Geth. Too much inteligence to throw away! There's no sence on riping them out! But i would need more time to think... Going against the word of my girl? No way.

[Phil725]

RiptideX1090 wrote...
*snip*

Yeah.

Though... I don't know. I guess it depends. You can tell Tali on the Alerai that you support wiping out the geth by any means necessary. Tali doesn't seem to openly object to "not letting the geth win". I bet you could convince her either way. If Xen had a reliable way to put the quarians on the homeworld and stop the geth? I have no doubts Tali would go along with it, especially if coached by Shepard.

Tali understands that her people need their homeworld back, and I think that she would be willing to go through the geth to get it back, but only as a last resort.  If the option is peace or anything else, I can't see Tali going against peace.  And I'm sure she would struggle with the decision heavily if there was a deus ex machina that could wipe out all geth, and that was the only way.

I can't see her ever favoring Xen's plan though, as that's the classic ignoring your past mistakes move, and I don't think Tali would fall into that trap.

[TheAmazingOne-]

Nice discussion. Agreed with Phil.

Now give me a minute, working on new avatar to put over this one.

[Kalashnikov]

Phil725 wrote...

RiptideX1090 wrote...
*snip*

Yeah.

Though... I don't know. I guess it depends. You can tell Tali on the Alerai that you support wiping out the geth by any means necessary. Tali doesn't seem to openly object to "not letting the geth win". I bet you could convince her either way. If Xen had a reliable way to put the quarians on the homeworld and stop the geth? I have no doubts Tali would go along with it, especially if coached by Shepard.

Tali understands that her people need their homeworld back, and I think that she would be willing to go through the geth to get it back, but only as a last resort.  If the option is peace or anything else, I can't see Tali going against peace.  And I'm sure she would struggle with the decision heavily if there was a deus ex machina that could wipe out all geth, and that was the only way.

I can't see her ever favoring Xen's plan though, as that's the classic ignoring your past mistakes move, and I don't think Tali would fall into that trap.

hit the nail on the head phil
i dont see the quarians risking extended the conflict with the geth, at some point they're going to have to try and make amends of some sort. xen's route is not the best way to go about it though

[RiptideX1090]

Phil725 wrote...

RiptideX1090 wrote...
*snip*

Yeah.

Though... I don't know. I guess it depends. You can tell Tali on the Alerai that you support wiping out the geth by any means necessary. Tali doesn't seem to openly object to "not letting the geth win". I bet you could convince her either way. If Xen had a reliable way to put the quarians on the homeworld and stop the geth? I have no doubts Tali would go along with it, especially if coached by Shepard.

Tali understands that her people need their homeworld back, and I think that she would be willing to go through the geth to get it back, but only as a last resort.  If the option is peace or anything else, I can't see Tali going against peace.  And I'm sure she would struggle with the decision heavily if there was a deus ex machina that could wipe out all geth, and that was the only way.

I can't see her ever favoring Xen's plan though, as that's the classic ignoring your past mistakes move, and I don't think Tali would fall into that trap.

Unless Xen got it right. Tali is a genius hacker. If she looked at Xen's plan, she'd know whether it would work or not. I think she thinks Xen is crazy for trying it. I don't think she's actually opposed to using the weapon though. She wants to wipe the geth out. That's never changed. Sharing a bit of data with Legion is a start, but if you turned around and said "Tali, lets go wipe the synthetic bastards out." I sincerly doubt she's going to object. I'd see her having a harder time accepting a peaceful resolution, unless her relationship with Legion is fleshed out more in 3.

[Titanium Man]

I wonder if anyone's wrote a story where Shepard and Tali get in a big spat. Too many cutesy stuff. They need to argue sometimes and stuff.

[Phil725]

RiptideX1090 wrote...
*snip*

Unless Xen got it right. Tali is a genius hacker. If she looked at Xen's plan, she'd know whether it would work or not. I think she thinks Xen is crazy for trying it. I don't think she's actually opposed to using the weapon though. She wants to wipe the geth out. That's never changed. Sharing a bit of data with Legion is a start, but if you turned around and said "Tali, lets go wipe the synthetic bastards out." I sincerly doubt she's going to object. I'd see her having a harder time accepting a peaceful resolution, unless her relationship with Legion is fleshed out more in 3.

Xen doesn't want to wipe out the geth though, she wants to return things to exactly the way things were before the geth rebelled.  Tali's a genius, but so was the quarian race as a whole 300 years ago.  There's no way that Tali is going to be able to singlehandedly assure that the horror that was the Morning War wouldn't happen again.  And I don't see her being willing to risk it.

As far as the rest, we need to differentiate the true and heretic geth.  We never fight the true geth, and all of the hatred that Tali has built up in her life, and all the geth that she has fought have been the heretics.  She (understandably,) doesn't trust the geth at all, but I see no indication that she would favor them being eradicated over going away peacefully.  The quarians don't see the geth as a mortal enemy.

[Someone With Mass]

RiptideX1090 wrote...

Unless Xen got it right. Tali is a genius hacker. If she looked at Xen's plan, she'd know whether it would work or not. I think she thinks Xen is crazy for trying it. I don't think she's actually opposed to using the weapon though. She wants to wipe the geth out. That's never changed. Sharing a bit of data with Legion is a start, but if you turned around and said "Tali, lets go wipe the synthetic bastards out." I sincerly doubt she's going to object. I'd see her having a harder time accepting a peaceful resolution, unless her relationship with Legion is fleshed out more in 3.

I hope so, because those two might be the solution to the whole problem. And I'd like the sight of them really working together and one day maybe have that relation Garrus and Tali have. Not much, but it's a starter.

[RiptideX1090]

Phil725 wrote...

RiptideX1090 wrote...
*snip*

Unless Xen got it right. Tali is a genius hacker. If she looked at Xen's plan, she'd know whether it would work or not. I think she thinks Xen is crazy for trying it. I don't think she's actually opposed to using the weapon though. She wants to wipe the geth out. That's never changed. Sharing a bit of data with Legion is a start, but if you turned around and said "Tali, lets go wipe the synthetic bastards out." I sincerly doubt she's going to object. I'd see her having a harder time accepting a peaceful resolution, unless her relationship with Legion is fleshed out more in 3.

Xen doesn't want to wipe out the geth though, she wants to return things to exactly the way things were before the geth rebelled.  Tali's a genius, but so was the quarian race as a whole 300 years ago.  There's no way that Tali is going to be able to singlehandedly assure that the horror that was the Morning War wouldn't happen again.  And I don't see her being willing to risk it.

As far as the rest, we need to differentiate the true and heretic geth.  We never fight the true geth, and all of the hatred that Tali has built up in her life, and all the geth that she has fought have been the heretics.  She (understandably,) doesn't trust the geth at all, but I see no indication that she would favor them being eradicated over going away peacefully.  The quarians don't see the geth as a mortal enemy.

No indication?

She spent the first game telling you how she supported trying to wipe them out. Take her to Feros, and she revels in killing them. I think people give Tali too little credit. They like to see her as this sweet and innocent being, and she isn't. Not entirely. The fact of the matter is, she hates the geth. She has no problems with wiping out every single last one, aside from the fact that her people simply lack the numbers, and supports the idea more than once. Do I think she'll staunchly refuse peace? No. She's been shown to willingly work with a geth before. I certainly dont' think she'd feel even remotely bad about wiping the entire species out though. And honeslty? I don't blame her. Given the option, I'm going with peace. But I'd be surprised if Tali took to peace more easily than using Xen's super weapon, unless further Character development in 3 steers away from this.

[Phil725]

RiptideX1090 wrote...
*snip*

No indication?

She spent the first game telling you how she supported trying to wipe them out. Take her to Feros, and she revels in killing them. I think people give Tali too little credit. They like to see her as this sweet and innocent being, and she isn't. Not entirely. The fact of the matter is, she hates the geth. She has no problems with wiping out every single last one, aside from the fact that her people simply lack the numbers, and supports the idea more than once. Do I think she'll staunchly refuse peace? No. She's been shown to willingly work with a geth before. I certainly dont' think she'd feel even remotely bad about wiping the entire species out though. And honeslty? I don't blame her. Given the option, I'm going with peace. But I'd be surprised if Tali took to peace more easily than using Xen's super weapon, unless further Character development in 3 steers away from this.

You can't blame her for having those feelings in ME1.  In ME1, every geth that any quarian had ever seen was simply a rabid animal looking to cause as much destruction and death as possible.  She had no idea that there was a such thing as the true geth.  Ones that are more intelligent and just want to be left alone in their own corner of the galaxy.  Legion changes everything.  What Tali and the rest of the quarians thought about the geth doesn't matter anymore, because the geth that they formed an opinion on are gone now. 

I'm fully aware that Tali isn't as nice and innocent as people like to think, but if you think that Tali would willingly commit genocide or enslave an entire race when there was any other option, I don't know what to say.  As far as the character development, I'm not sure that there has been any yet, but the quarians have basically been introduced to a new race.  Treating the true geth as the heretics just doesn't work.

[InHarmsWay]

Phil725 wrote...

RiptideX1090 wrote...
*snip*

No indication?

She spent the first game telling you how she supported trying to wipe them out. Take her to Feros, and she revels in killing them. I think people give Tali too little credit. They like to see her as this sweet and innocent being, and she isn't. Not entirely. The fact of the matter is, she hates the geth. She has no problems with wiping out every single last one, aside from the fact that her people simply lack the numbers, and supports the idea more than once. Do I think she'll staunchly refuse peace? No. She's been shown to willingly work with a geth before. I certainly dont' think she'd feel even remotely bad about wiping the entire species out though. And honeslty? I don't blame her. Given the option, I'm going with peace. But I'd be surprised if Tali took to peace more easily than using Xen's super weapon, unless further Character development in 3 steers away from this.

You can't blame her for having those feelings in ME1.  In ME1, every geth that any quarian had ever seen was simply a rabid animal looking to cause as much destruction and death as possible.  She had no idea that there was a such thing as the true geth.  Ones that are more intelligent and just want to be left alone in their own corner of the galaxy.  Legion changes everything.  What Tali and the rest of the quarians thought about the geth doesn't matter anymore, because the geth that they formed an opinion on are gone now. 

I'm fully aware that Tali isn't as nice and innocent as people like to think, but if you think that Tali would willingly commit genocide or enslave an entire race when there was any other option, I don't know what to say.  As far as the character development, I'm not sure that there has been any yet, but the quarians have basically been introduced to a new race.  Treating the true geth as the heretics just doesn't work.

Hell this was my view in ME1. Angry at the Geth for attacking organics when we left them alone all this time. When I told the Admiralty board not to go to war with the Geth it wasso they can focus on the bigger problem. The Reapers. Then I get my ass saved by one of them on the Reaper corpse and it even tries to talk with us. Naturally I was curious. Then my views took a 180 when I talked to Legion. So yeah, if peace is possible, I'm going for it. The last thing this galaxy needs is another war. Also why I rewrote the Heretics. It was a morally grey area, but I didn't want a Geth civil war to break out.

[RiptideX1090]

Phil725 wrote...

RiptideX1090 wrote...
*snip*

No indication?

She spent the first game telling you how she supported trying to wipe them out. Take her to Feros, and she revels in killing them. I think people give Tali too little credit. They like to see her as this sweet and innocent being, and she isn't. Not entirely. The fact of the matter is, she hates the geth. She has no problems with wiping out every single last one, aside from the fact that her people simply lack the numbers, and supports the idea more than once. Do I think she'll staunchly refuse peace? No. She's been shown to willingly work with a geth before. I certainly dont' think she'd feel even remotely bad about wiping the entire species out though. And honeslty? I don't blame her. Given the option, I'm going with peace. But I'd be surprised if Tali took to peace more easily than using Xen's super weapon, unless further Character development in 3 steers away from this.

You can't blame her for having those feelings in ME1.  In ME1, every geth that any quarian had ever seen was simply a rabid animal looking to cause as much destruction and death as possible.  She had no idea that there was a such thing as the true geth.  Ones that are more intelligent and just want to be left alone in their own corner of the galaxy.  Legion changes everything.  What Tali and the rest of the quarians thought about the geth doesn't matter anymore, because the geth that they formed an opinion on are gone now. 

I'm fully aware that Tali isn't as nice and innocent as people like to think, but if you think that Tali would willingly commit genocide or enslave an entire race when there was any other option, I don't know what to say.  As far as the character development, I'm not sure that there has been any yet, but the quarians have basically been introduced to a new race.  Treating the true geth as the heretics just doesn't work.

Like Shala says. I don't think anyone cares about true geth or heretics or whatever. The geth wiped out 99% of their entire race, left them to wander the stars alone, and suffer at the hands of a brutal galaxy. At this point? I don't think most quarians care anymore. They want their world, their homes. and their bodies back. The quarians were right to attack the geth. The geth were right to defend themselves. But letting the quarians deteriorate over the course of 400 years into extinction? That's on the geth's heads. Doing nothing for so long to alliviate the problem is on them. They are the ones who won the war. What happens to the losers is their responsiblility. Given that, frankly, peace or not, I'd be pissed off too. I'm sure peace will be possible. However, I wouldn't blame any quarian, nor Tali, for wanting to wipe out the geth regardless. Even Legion understands this. The geth know they seriously ****ed up the quarians in the war, and they understand why the quarians hate them so much.

And if Tali was as open to peace as most people think, I imagine that she would have taken greater measures to get to know Legion and try and work something out on her own. Instead, she ends up threatening to shoot him. That speaks volumes. I honestly think that given where Tali's character is at in the first two games, she'd be more inclined to wipe the geth out. Just to be sure. It's not just about the homeworld, there's bitterness there. A need for revenge for everything that's happened.

Regardless. This topic isn't going to go anywhere. I've said my piece on it. We'll see what we get in the next game.

[Phil725]

RiptideX1090 wrote...
*snip*

Like Shala says. I don't think anyone cares about true geth or heretics or whatever. The geth wiped out 99% of their entire race, left them to wander the stars alone, and suffer at the hands of a brutal galaxy. At this point? I don't think most quarians care anymore. They want their world, their homes. and their bodies back. The quarians were right to attack the geth. The geth were right to defend themselves. But letting the quarians deteriorate over the course of 400 years into extinction? That's on the geth's heads. Doing nothing for so long to alliviate the problem is on them. They are the ones who won the war. What happens to the losers is their responsiblility. Given that, frankly, peace or not, I'd be pissed off too. I'm sure peace will be possible. However, I wouldn't blame any quarian, nor Tali, for wanting to wipe out the geth regardless. Even Legion understands this. The geth know they seriously ****ed up the quarians in the war, and they understand why the quarians hate them so much.

And if Tali was as open to peace as most people think, I imagine that she would have taken greater measures to get to know Legion and try and work something out on her own. Instead, she ends up threatening to shoot him. That speaks volumes. I honestly think that given where Tali's character is at in the first two games, she'd be more inclined to wipe the geth out. Just to be sure. It's not just about the homeworld, there's bitterness there. A need for revenge for everything that's happened.

Regardless. This topic isn't going to go anywhere. I've said my piece on it. We'll see what we get in the next game.

First of all, neither Shala, nor anyone else in the galaxy outside of Shep know about the difference between the heretic and true geth.  We haven't seen anyone's opinion on a potential difference, because as far as anyone knows, Legion is just another one of those geth that randomly hijack ships and turn people into husks.

As far as the bitterness, I feel like your projecting your own feelings as the view of the quarians.  I don't recall any evidence in game of a lasting desire for revenge on the part of the quarians for anything that happened.  It seems logical to want revenge, but what if they as a race believe that they were wrong, and they deserve this?  The only thing they want is their homeworld back so that they can return to a normal life.  No one (except Xen,) has advocated genocide/enslavement of the true geth if another option can be presented.

As far as Tali's characterization, I would argue that she is very open to peace.  She made her feelings towards the heretics very clear, she wanted them all dead, and now they are.  Her only interaction with the true geth was understandable distrust at first as they worked together, and if resolved correctly, the only bump in the road is corrected into them working together peacefully some more.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

So the last one got locked?

That means one of two things.

Either A) It got closed down for being too big.

Or Something bad happened so they closed it down.

Which means either A) People are being prudish moralist jack asses.

Or people have gotten over it and things have come mostly back to normal.

Please tell me what is the case.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

I guess I came on just as everyone else was leaving.

Ah well.

[Phil725]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

So the last one got locked?
That means one of two things.
Either A) It got closed down for being too big.
Or Something bad happened so they closed it down.
Which means either A) People are being prudish moralist jack asses.
Or people have gotten over it and things have come mostly back to normal.
Please tell me what is the case.

Closed for being too off topic.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Phil725 wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

So the last one got locked?
That means one of two things.
Either A) It got closed down for being too big.
Or Something bad happened so they closed it down.
Which means either A) People are being prudish moralist jack asses.
Or people have gotten over it and things have come mostly back to normal.
Please tell me what is the case.

Closed for being too off topic.

That happens.
Every version before that had the same problem.
Things were fine then they got bad then they closed it.
And the cycle starts anew.

...I was right though. They didn't close down all character threads.
That's why I'll keep being my Cheesecake self.
And by that I mean occasionally posting funny mini-stories, bugging Rune for being a prude, and liking Tali, and if anyone has a problem with it they can ban me.

[Alamar2078]

Phil725 wrote...
Xen doesn't want to wipe out the geth though, she wants to return things to exactly the way things were before the geth rebelled.

I don't agree that Xen wants to return things "exactly" to the way they were.  I am confident that she would be more than happy to have the largest army in Citadel Space / Known Space and would not hesitate to use it.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Alright Bye.

[Phil725]

Alamar2078 wrote...

Phil725 wrote...
Xen doesn't want to wipe out the geth though, she wants to return things to exactly the way things were before the geth rebelled.

I don't agree that Xen wants to return things "exactly" to the way they were.  I am confident that she would be more than happy to have the largest army in Citadel Space / Known Space and would not hesitate to use it.

Semantics really, I just meant that she wanted the quarians to have the geth as their own personal work force/army again.

[epoch_]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

So the last one got locked?
That means one of two things.
Either A) It got closed down for being too big.
Or Something bad happened so they closed it down.
Which means either A) People are being prudish moralist jack asses.
Or people have gotten over it and things have come mostly back to normal.
Please tell me what is the case.

Are you Darth?

[Pacifien]

RiptideX1090 wrote...
Like Shala says. I don't think anyone cares about true geth or heretics or whatever. The geth wiped out 99% of their entire race, left them to wander the stars alone, and suffer at the hands of a brutal galaxy. At this point? I don't think most quarians care anymore. They want their world, their homes. and their bodies back. The quarians were right to attack the geth. The geth were right to defend themselves. But letting the quarians deteriorate over the course of 400 years into extinction? That's on the geth's heads. Doing nothing for so long to alliviate the problem is on them. They are the ones who won the war. What happens to the losers is their responsiblility. Given that, frankly, peace or not, I'd be pissed off too. I'm sure peace will be possible. However, I wouldn't blame any quarian, nor Tali, for wanting to wipe out the geth regardless. Even Legion understands this. The geth know they seriously ****ed up the quarians in the war, and they understand why the quarians hate them so much.

The geth do not understand hate. If they understood hate, they'd have a rudimentary understanding of emotion.

No one says the victor has to hold the loser's hand either. The loser in this case even ran beyond the victor's sphere of influence. And no one helped them as they ran. The geth then continued about their business in private. Apparently, whenever the quarians did feel like a reunion, it was to attack.

The whole geth/quarian situation is way beyond the blame game. Or it should be, but Riptide's post is a good example why it will never be. The geth don't want to ever make themselves vulnerable to quarian attack again. The quarians will never forgive the geth for what they've done.

Still, the part where Riptide says the quarians want their world, homes, and body back just reminds me of how much I want the quarians to let go of the dream and get back to reality. Colonize. The whole benefit of being a spacefaring civilization is that your people can move on when your origin world is gone. Though most people are usually thinking more along the lines of a world whithering and dying, it can really apply to this situation as well.

[SpatFieya]

I think Tali's actions towards the geth depend soley on what morals Shepard instills in her. She was raised to hate the geth. Anyone in a quarians position would be the same way. You see them as machines gone crazy that killed billions of your people, women, men, children. Over coming that resentment would take a lot.



It would be like trying to convice John Connor to love Skylab. Granted, the geth are hippies compared to Skylab and it's agenda.



Legion, I think, will play a key part. Legion showed Tali what the real geth are like. Not crazed machines, but sapien synthetics who only wish to understand. So now that Tali understands and realizes there can be peace, with Shepards coaching, true deplomacy can be made between to two races.



However, getting the council and the rest of the galaxy to understand, would be even more of a challenge.