18744 réponses à ce sujet

[Phil725]

SpatFieya wrote...
*snip*
I'll admit, the Alerei was very interesting, she really stood behind her beliefs. Then again, it wasn't about making peace with the geth, it was mainly about them 'giving up' reclaiming their home world. Frankly, I'd be pissed off if someone suggested that to me. 

Both Tali and Shepard have things to learn. However, Tali looks up to Shepard. Like Garrus, they want to know what he thinks. Not so he can make the choice for them, but so they can get another point of view, so they can help draw their own conclusions. That effects ideas and morals. 

Tali & Legions stand off was also very deep. Shepard pointed out that neither races slates are clean. They both equally screwed up. That either than can move on, or both suffer.

One thing that paragon Shepard shows Tali & his crew, is that there is always a better way. 

Its an interesting question that you hit on.  Garrus definitely looks up to Shepard, but I don't think Tali looks up to him in the same way.  Garrus was confused on his path in life, and Shep gave him a purpose.  Shep is Garrus' mentor.  Tali is different, she knows exactly what she wants, and that's what's best for the fleet.  She trusts Shep's word as a leader, but I feel like she looks to him as a close and very trusted friend, not as a mentor.  That's why I don't see him changing her mind based on what he says.  She respects his opinion, but doesn't hinge on it.  She is perfectly capable of coming to her own decision, even if Shep doesn't agree.

Everything that we have seen with Legion says that she is fine with working together towards peace, and I look forward to that being expanded on later.

*top*

Modifié par Phil725, 31 juillet 2010 - 01:17 .

[Lividity Jones]

Runescapeguy9 wrote...

Best engineer poll

Oh God...

Do I vote Tali or Tali'Zorah?!

What do I do?!

Why, God, why?!

[Skadhi1]

MadCat221 wrote...
There'd be plenty of opportunity for talk back and forth between Tali and Legion that may push her towards reconciling her own hatred of the Geth, which would probably serve to help things along with my Quarian Question post mentioned above.

But if the Quarians still view the Geth as primarily machines - not independent sentient beings - would they hate them?  Would we hate a car, even if it was the cause of lots of death?

Perhaps the key element is for the Quarians to see the Geth as people, not just malfunctioning machines.  But that opens the path for a spectrum of emotions, from hatred on one side to reconciliation and understanding on the other.

[Phil725]

Runescapeguy9 wrote...

Best engineer poll

Interesting that so far 4:1 people vote for Tali'Zorah over just Tali.  I do like the full name

[SpatFieya]

Lividity Jones wrote...

Runescapeguy9 wrote...

Best engineer poll

Oh God...

Do I vote Tali or Tali'Zorah?!

What do I do?!

Why, God, why?!

SO HARD.

[Lividity Jones]

Runescapeguy9 wrote...

Lividity Jones wrote...

Runescapeguy9 wrote...
Best engineer poll

Oh God...
Do I vote Tali or Tali'Zorah?!
What do I do?!
Why, God, why?!

A gentleman would vote for the respectful full name

I am nothing if not a gentleman.

Done.

[RiptideX1090]

Lividity Jones wrote...

Runescapeguy9 wrote...

Best engineer poll

Oh God...

Do I vote Tali or Tali'Zorah?!

What do I do?!

Why, God, why?!

Tali'Zorah.

The ' and the Z make it sound cooler.

[Phil725]

Skadhi1 wrote...

MadCat221 wrote...
There'd be plenty of opportunity for talk back and forth between Tali and Legion that may push her towards reconciling her own hatred of the Geth, which would probably serve to help things along with my Quarian Question post mentioned above.

But if the Quarians still view the Geth as primarily machines - not independent sentient beings - would they hate them?  Would we hate a car, even if it was the cause of lots of death?

Perhaps the key element is for the Quarians to see the Geth as people, not just malfunctioning machines.  But that opens the path for a spectrum of emotions, from hatred on one side to reconciliation and understanding on the other.

Its worth noting that the quarians view the geth as more of a "person" than the rest of the galaxy does.  I recall the term "our children," being used by the quarians.  I'm not sure what level they put them on, but its above a car. 

[RiptideX1090]

Phil725 wrote...

Skadhi1 wrote...

MadCat221 wrote...
There'd be plenty of opportunity for talk back and forth between Tali and Legion that may push her towards reconciling her own hatred of the Geth, which would probably serve to help things along with my Quarian Question post mentioned above.

But if the Quarians still view the Geth as primarily machines - not independent sentient beings - would they hate them?  Would we hate a car, even if it was the cause of lots of death?

Perhaps the key element is for the Quarians to see the Geth as people, not just malfunctioning machines.  But that opens the path for a spectrum of emotions, from hatred on one side to reconciliation and understanding on the other.

Its worth noting that the quarians view the geth as more of a "person" than the rest of the galaxy does.  I recall the term "our children," being used by the quarians.  I'm not sure what level they put them on, but its above a car. 

Codex says they treat them as if they are sentient beings. Just like any other race.

Modifié par RiptideX1090, 31 juillet 2010 - 01:23 .

[xlavaina]

Skadhi1 wrote...

MadCat221 wrote...
There'd be plenty of opportunity for talk back and forth between Tali and Legion that may push her towards reconciling her own hatred of the Geth, which would probably serve to help things along with my Quarian Question post mentioned above.

But if the Quarians still view the Geth as primarily machines - not independent sentient beings - would they hate them?  Would we hate a car, even if it was the cause of lots of death?

Perhaps the key element is for the Quarians to see the Geth as people, not just malfunctioning machines.  But that opens the path for a spectrum of emotions, from hatred on one side to reconciliation and understanding on the other.

Yeah I believe this will be the key to peace between them in ME3. What if we genetically engineered an entire race, and suddenly, they became sentient? Not dangerous, but sentient. What would we do? Would we see them as people? As equals? The answer is obvious, we would be scared, and would probably attack just like the Quarians did. The question leave much room for debate.

The problem is that the Geth see the Quarians as ruthless and possibly prejudice and judgmental (considering that from the Geths' perspective, the Quarians attacked their entire race, unprovoked). To the Quarians, the Geth are an abomination, a mistake, that must be corrected in order for them to retake the home world. These two sides of the coin are what need to be reconciled before peace can be ensured. 

[uhdnrt]

Someone made a request. Repostan!
------------------
Pet Care
------------------
The residents of the Citadel were used to seeing odd sights. As the hub of the majority of the Galaxy, very little was seen as odd. Today, however, more than a few residents raised their eyes at the pair walking through the wards.

In his most basic N7 armor, Commander Shepard walked through the wards. Though relatively peaceful, he always went out in armor; it never paid to be unprepared. At least he had left his sniper rifle and heavy weapon this time. He just wished he had brought one of his helmets, to be less recognizable. No such luck.

Glancing over at his companion, he activates his communicator. "Tali, is it really necessary for me to have the drone with me?"

Before Tali responds, the drone floats over towards him and lets out a very brief spark. Almost as if it is insulted. He glared at the drone, but his mouth formed an unconscious smile when he heard Tali pick up. Until he heard what she said.

"Be nice John! I think you hurt her feelings."

He shook his head. "Do you really think..."He paused, perplexed. "Wait, she?!"

He could hear Tali laughing. "Of course it's a she. You don't think I'd travel around the galaxy with a boy as a companion, do you?" Her voice dropped slightly, becoming more coy. "That's your job, John."

"It better be," he muttered. He couldn't help smiling when Tali giggled over his communicator. His smile fell again when he realized that Tali had hacked his suits audio, again.

"Who's a good Chiktikka? Who's a good girl?" Tali's voice called out from within Shepard's suit. The drone flashed brightly a couple of times. "Be good for Daddy!"

Locking back down his suit, he said with exasperation, "We could just get a dog or a cat like other couples, you know."

There was a pause. Finally, Tali responded with, "I won't have a reaction to Chiktikka, Shepard."

The savior of the citadel slapped his forehead in frustration. "Right. Forget I said that." He turned to the drone.

"Ok Chiktikka, let's go," he said conversationally. In a stage whisper, he continued, "I need to go buy your mom a present." Chiktikka vas Paus just followed, a slight hum coming from it as it traveled next to Shepard.
---------------

[Primordial Breath]

[xlavaina]

Doesn't Chiktikka get destroyed on multiple occasions in combat?

[Phil725]

xlavaina wrote...
*snip*

Yeah I believe this will be the key to peace between them in ME3. What if we genetically engineered an entire race, and suddenly, they became sentient? Not dangerous, but sentient. What would we do? Would we see them as people? As equals? The answer is obvious, we would be scared, and would probably attack just like the Quarians did. The question leave much room for debate.

The problem is that the Geth see the Quarians as ruthless and possibly prejudice and judgmental (considering that from the Geths' perspective, the Quarians attacked their entire race, unprovoked). To the Quarians, the Geth are an abomination, a mistake, that must be corrected in order for them to retake the home world. These two sides of the coin are what need to be reconciled before peace can be ensured. 

Your first question is as difficult to answer and could go on for pages and pages with no real conclusion made.  Best to just focus on what the quarians did I would think.

The second paragraph I almost entirely disagree with.  The geth feel that the quarians attacked them because they thought an attack was imminent on the geth's part.  Once the geth gained sentience, they wouldn't willingly stay in the place that the quarians wanted them to, so there would be a conflict sooner rather than later.  The geth disagree I would think, but they understand why they attacked.

The quarians may view the geth as a mistake, or they may view the geth as a simple obstacle to the homeworld that needs moved, and thats all.  We don't know for sure as it stands now.  I definitely don't feel like any real majority wants to wipe out the geth for no reason.

[Chim3ra]

Is going to be interesting to see the dialogue in the upcoming DLC, seeing how only Tali and Garrus know Liara.



I hope liara says something like," I knew you two always had something."

[RiptideX1090]

Chim3ra wrote...

Is going to be interesting to see the dialogue in the upcoming DLC, seeing how only Tali and Garrus know Liara.

I hope liara says something like," I knew you two always had something."

This is why I'm glad I did not romance Liara in my main playthrough.

However... For Roxanne Jane Shepard... Liara and Garrus are gonna have words...

[Phil725]

RiptideX1090 wrote...

Chim3ra wrote...

Is going to be interesting to see the dialogue in the upcoming DLC, seeing how only Tali and Garrus know Liara.

I hope liara says something like," I knew you two always had something."

This is why I'm glad I did not romance Liara in my main playthrough.

However... For Roxanne Jane Shepard... Liara and Garrus are gonna have words...

Or it could just be wallbangingly ignored completely until ME3 comes out

[Skadhi1]

xlavaina wrote...

Yeah I believe this will be the key to peace between them in ME3. What if we genetically engineered an entire race, and suddenly, they became sentient? Not dangerous, but sentient. What would we do? Would we see them as people? As equals? The answer is obvious, we would be scared, and would probably attack just like the Quarians did. The question leave much room for debate.

There is an additional issue.  If the Geth are largely devoid of emotion, it will be difficult to perceive them as people.  People have hopes, fears, loyalties - they love and hate.  Betrayal and loyalty imply emotional committments.

But the Geth, as we saw with the heretics, can change their views of loyalty based on the value of a single operation.  Trusting a creation that was peaceful one instant, and not peaceful the next - all due to the change in value of that mathematical operation - would not be easy.  Perceiving them as people, as being just like "one of us" might be problematic.  And also terribly dangerous.

[xlavaina]

Phil725 wrote...

xlavaina wrote...
*snip*

Yeah I believe this will be the key to peace between them in ME3. What if we genetically engineered an entire race, and suddenly, they became sentient? Not dangerous, but sentient. What would we do? Would we see them as people? As equals? The answer is obvious, we would be scared, and would probably attack just like the Quarians did. The question leave much room for debate.

The problem is that the Geth see the Quarians as ruthless and possibly prejudice and judgmental (considering that from the Geths' perspective, the Quarians attacked their entire race, unprovoked). To the Quarians, the Geth are an abomination, a mistake, that must be corrected in order for them to retake the home world. These two sides of the coin are what need to be reconciled before peace can be ensured. 

Your first question is as difficult to answer and could go on for pages and pages with no real conclusion made.  Best to just focus on what the quarians did I would think.

The second paragraph I almost entirely disagree with.  The geth feel that the quarians attacked them because they thought an attack was imminent on the geth's part.  Once the geth gained sentience, they wouldn't willingly stay in the place that the quarians wanted them to, so there would be a conflict sooner rather than later.  The geth disagree I would think, but they understand why they attacked.

The quarians may view the geth as a mistake, or they may view the geth as a simple obstacle to the homeworld that needs moved, and thats all.  We don't know for sure as it stands now.  I definitely don't feel like any real majority wants to wipe out the geth for no reason.

Its good to hear constructive criticism/disagreements for once on the internet 

In any case, according to all the stuff I've read about the origins of the conflict with the Geth, I have deduced that after that first Geth servant asked "what is my purpose?" or something along those lines, the Quarian government simply lost it and immediately saw the Geth as a dangerous entity. Thats why they struck first, not because they anticipated a Geth attack. Who knows, if the Quarians were more peaceful in the beginning, its possible peace could've been reached immediately. You know the whole "I would've have had you work like slaves if I knew you were sentient" speech. 

Just to clarify the second point, we actually do agree. I never said (or so I think) that the Quarians wanted to wipe them out, just correct the problem. Whether that means an all out orbital bombardment or peace talks is up to the BW developer team. 

This is all just my opinion though, I'm sure others have their own as well. 

[Phil725]

Skadhi1 wrote...
*snip*
There is an additional issue.  If the Geth are largely devoid of emotion, it will be difficult to perceive them as people.  People have hopes, fears, loyalties - they love and hate.  Betrayal and loyalty imply emotional committments.

But the Geth, as we saw with the heretics, can change their views of loyalty based on the value of a single operation.  Trusting a creation that was peaceful one instant, and not peaceful the next - all due to the change in value of that mathematical operation - would not be easy.  Perceiving them as people, as being just like "one of us" might be problematic.  And also terribly dangerous.

I do fully believe that peace is the only option between the geth and the quarians, and that its pretty close to inevitable, but I'd be lying if I said the geth didn't scare the hell out of me long term.  There are way too many parallels between the geth and reapers for me to feel good about them building dyson spheres off in the far reaches of the galaxy. 

That said, that won't be a problem for milenia after ME3 ends, so no worries

[Phil725]

xlavaina wrote...
*snip*
Its good to hear constructive criticism/disagreements for once on the internet 

In any case, according to all the stuff I've read about the origins of the conflict with the Geth, I have deduced that after that first Geth servant asked "what is my purpose?" or something along those lines, the Quarian government simply lost it and immediately saw the Geth as a dangerous entity. Thats why they struck first, not because they anticipated a Geth attack. Who knows, if the Quarians were more peaceful in the beginning, its possible peace could've been reached immediately. You know the whole "I would've have had you work like slaves if I knew you were sentient" speech. 

Just to clarify the second point, we actually do agree. I never said (or so I think) that the Quarians wanted to wipe them out, just correct the problem. Whether that means an all out orbital bombardment or peace talks is up to the BW developer team. 

This is all just my opinion though, I'm sure others have their own as well. 

Well the situation did technically play out like that, but I'm pretty sure the reasoning for it is that the quarians feared the geth once they became sentient.  They felt that an attack was imminent if they kept them in that capacity, and the order went out to shut down all of the synthetics.  The geth had advanced further than the quarians imagined, and there's your Morning War.  In hindsight, clearly any other path was preferable

Agreed that its up to Bioware on what path the quarians end up taking, though based on what we know now, I have a hard time seeing how war would be feasible, especially compared to how easy peace looks.

[SpatFieya]

Tali's catching up to Garrus in the polls.

Garrus seems to have plateaued out. 

[xlavaina]

Yeah Phil I agree on both points. Peace is not only the logical solution for the universe, but also for Bioware's budget. They would have to create a whole mission or series of missions committed to fighting an all out war, thats not BW's style from what I've seen. Besides, I would love to negotiate with/through Legion and Tali to help unite the two races against the Reapers rather than have an all out bloody conflict with the (most likely) millions or billions of Geth back on the home world. That just seems silly to me.



However on the flip side, what if your actions taken in the war cause the Quarians to lose somehow? That would be interesting. Say you are assaulting the main control node for the Geth and if you shut that down all the Geth shut down or something, or are brainwashed or whatever. Say you fail but its NOT a critical mission failure. The Migrant Fleet is destroyed and basically Tali and whatever Quarians left on pilgrimage are the only Quarians left. Think of the ramifications. I would personally reload but just think of it. Anyway its probably mute since there is like a .01% chance BW will take this approach.