18744 réponses à ce sujet

[Phil725]

MadCat221 wrote...
*snip*

Cerberus agents lie to people's faces if it serves their goals.  Just look at Timmay.  By that point, Jacob had done nothing but give potentially empty words (by her POV).  As far as she's concerned, he's an agent of a group that killed 20 of her people and nearly killed 600 more in order to kidnap an autistic biotic girl to do who knows what kinds of horrid experiments on.

Cerberus is bad, no one's arguing that.  But Jacob clearly isn't, and one normal conversation with Tali would prove that to her. 

*top, good time for attitude Tali *

Modifié par Phil725, 03 août 2010 - 02:42 .

[RiptideX1090]

Phil725 wrote...

RiptideX1090 wrote...

Phil725 wrote...
*snip*

Cerberus did, Jacob didn't.  Quarians created the geth that killed thousands of people on the Citadel, Tali didn't.  Lumping all people together like she does there is narrow minded, a quality that she goes very far to avoid in all other facets of her life, because of her experience of people doing it to her.

He feels the same way about that stuff as Tali did.  Which is why her comments are even more unneeded.

Cerberus is not a race. It's an organization. A TERRORIST organization. There is a difference.

They're both fractured entities.  What one person in Cerberus does doesn't affect what others do.  Its a terrorist organization that also offers an outlet for people like Chakwas and Joker to help people, like the hundreds of thousands of Terminus colonists who aren't reaper paste right now.  Racism against quarians isn't directly relatable to prejudice against Cerberus, but the main precedent of judging an unrelated person for what someone else did is the same.  Tali knows better than that, its just a rare slip up in her character.

How in the hell is it a slip up in her character? Her character is whatever Bioware says it is. Tali has been shown to be vindictive and even genocidal in the past. It's completely in character.

Also. It doesn't translate. Cerberus does far more harm than good. The only good thing they've ever done is bring Shepard back. He's the only reason the colonists are being saved. The quarians mind their own business for the most part and don't torture children, attack other people, or **** up damn near everything they touch. Jacob chose to work for that group, and he should have to deal with any suspicion he gets for it. Shepard does this generally without mocking people for losing a war that's causing them to go extinct.

But I digress.

[Azint]

Phil725 wrote...

They're both fractured entities.  What one person in Cerberus does doesn't affect what others do.  Its a terrorist organization that also offers an outlet for people like Chakwas and Joker to help people, like the hundreds of thousands of Terminus colonists who aren't reaper paste right now.  Racism against quarians isn't directly relatable to prejudice against Cerberus, but the main precedent of judging an unrelated person for what someone else did is the same.  Tali knows better than that, its just a rare slip up in her character.

Phil, I've tried this argument already, numerous times. We can't always be so persuasive.

[Lividity Jones]

I think she was well within her rights to give a sharp glare to someone who so casually drops the one thing that brought genocide down on her people.

But that's just me.

[Auzden]

ahhhhh **** **** **** my noes itches cuz its sunburned and it wont go away!!!!! MUST THINK ABOUT TALI

[RiptideX1090]

Lividity Jones wrote...

I think she was well within her rights to give a sharp glare to someone who so casually drops the one thing that brought genocide down on her people.

But that's just me.

Agreed.

But we're in the minority.

Jacob might mean well, but he is still a jackass, and would do well to learn to keep his damn mouth shut.

With that. I'm done.

[Collider]

Tali's glare will defeat the Reapers.

[RiptideX1090]

mrsph wrote...

Tali gives some pretty awesome death glares for someone whose face we can hardly see.

Not knowing just makes it that much scarier...

[Phil725]

RiptideX1090 wrote...
*snip*

How in the hell is it a slip up in her character? Her character is whatever Bioware says it is. Tali has been shown to be vindictive and even genocidal in the past. It's completely in character.

Also. It doesn't translate. Cerberus does far more harm than good. The only good thing they've ever done is bring Shepard back. He's the only reason the colonists are being saved. The quarians mind their own business for the most part and don't torture children, attack other people, or **** up damn near everything they touch. Jacob chose to work for that group, and he should have to deal with any suspicion he gets for it. Shepard does this generally without mocking people for losing a war that's causing them to go extinct.

But I digress.

Probably should have said IMO for that last part, but I think it is because no where else does Tali generalize like that.  It just seems really out of character to me.

While I'm not interested in arguing whether Cerberus has done more bad or good, discounting the good things that people like Joker and Chakwas join to do is oversimplifying.  Jacob being vulnerable to suspicion is a good point that I hadn't considered before, though I would argue that Tali verbalizing that suspicion was the unnecessary part.  Saying what she does doesn't help anything, just makes potentially working together harder.  Taking a few seconds to find out whether Jacob toes the company line or not would have solved a lot of problems.

[Collider]

I don't think Jacob was trying to be mean when he mentioned the AI. Certainly, if he actually was, his voice actor didn't sell it well to me. Besides Thane, it's pretty clear that Jacob makes an effort to welcome all of the new squad mates to the team. In this case he may not have had the foresight to know that mentioning AI to Quarians is a bit of a sensitive issue.

[Hackett923]

This place seems to slip pretty close to off-topic territory quite a bit.
Why is that?

Modifié par Hackett923, 03 août 2010 - 02:50 .

[Phil725]

Lividity Jones wrote...

I think she was well within her rights to give a sharp glare to someone who so casually drops the one thing that brought genocide down on her people.

But that's just me.

Just to be clear, I'm not arguing against the quarian death glare, she was well within her rights there.  I'm more against her whole antagonization of Jacob when he's just trying to be nice and smooth things over.

[Phil725]

Hackett923 wrote...

This place seems to slip pretty close to off-topic territory quite a bit.
Why is that?

We're arguing who was right in the Tali/Jacob confrontation, seems very on topic to me

[RiptideX1090]

Phil725 wrote...

RiptideX1090 wrote...
*snip*

How in the hell is it a slip up in her character? Her character is whatever Bioware says it is. Tali has been shown to be vindictive and even genocidal in the past. It's completely in character.

Also. It doesn't translate. Cerberus does far more harm than good. The only good thing they've ever done is bring Shepard back. He's the only reason the colonists are being saved. The quarians mind their own business for the most part and don't torture children, attack other people, or **** up damn near everything they touch. Jacob chose to work for that group, and he should have to deal with any suspicion he gets for it. Shepard does this generally without mocking people for losing a war that's causing them to go extinct.

But I digress.

Probably should have said IMO for that last part, but I think it is because no where else does Tali generalize like that.  It just seems really out of character to me.

While I'm not interested in arguing whether Cerberus has done more bad or good, discounting the good things that people like Joker and Chakwas join to do is oversimplifying.  Jacob being vulnerable to suspicion is a good point that I hadn't considered before, though I would argue that Tali verbalizing that suspicion was the unnecessary part.  Saying what she does doesn't help anything, just makes potentially working together harder.  Taking a few seconds to find out whether Jacob toes the company line or not would have solved a lot of problems.

It's different for me, because I agree with her. If I was Shepard, I'd have made it clear to Miranda and Jacob that if they even so much as look at me in the wrong way, I'm going to shoot them in the knees. Tali's comment about the Grenade makes me happy, because it's like she's saying that if it comes to that, she's got my back, and now Jacob knows that. And I'm okay with that.

Suffice it to say, I rather hate Cerberus, and have an openly hostile relationship with them.

[Hackett923]

Runescapeguy9 wrote...

Hackett923 wrote...

This place seems to slip pretty close to off-topic territory quite a bit.
Why is that?

We've been talking about Tali's decision against Jacob for the past 2 pages. Where have you been?

lurking elsewhere
sorry about that

Modifié par Hackett923, 03 août 2010 - 02:52 .

[Collider]

I don't believe it's a slip up. Before Legion Tali seemed to believe that all of the Geth were uniformly bastards (verbatim). Similarly she doesn't expect much from Cerberus. Tali was burning bridges in what she said to Jacob, but I also like she wouldn't play along and warm up to the organization. Certainly, I'd be less than thrilled to make friends to members of a terrorist organization - especially one that threatened my "country." Anyway - what she said could very well be interpreted as a flaw - as in not giving Jacob a chance. And of course, flaws are good.

Modifié par Collider, 03 août 2010 - 02:52 .

[Azint]

RiptideX1090 wrote...

How in the hell is it a slip up in her character? Her character is whatever Bioware says it is. Tali has been shown to be vindictive and even genocidal in the past. It's completely in character.

Tali is not perfect, she is judgemental and prejudiced at times. It's not a bad thing to not always be so rational, and you are take subjective evidence into this by mentioning her more renegade nature which swayed all over the place in ME1. You may as well consider her to be omnicidal as well.

Also. It doesn't translate. Cerberus does far more harm than good. The only good thing they've ever done is bring Shepard back. He's the only reason the colonists are being saved.

Regardless of reputation or history, they clearly are the only ones looking out for humanity and actually accomplishing something over the course of ME2. True that Alliance put work into it, but Cerberus has done more for this case than they have, which is exactly why Shepard is working with them.

The quarians mind their own business for the most part and don't torture children, attack other people, or **** up damn near everything they touch.

Now you are simply associating every member to actions caused by another cell, which is unfair. The Normandy SR-2 crew are workign with Cerberus because they support Shepard, not necesarrily Cerberus. Even Miranda crosses over, if she does it then that should speak to you about the loyalty of the rest of them.

Jacob chose to work for that group, and he should have to deal with any suspicion he gets for it.

This is exactly what the Council and Alliance does to Shepard, guilt by association. Arguing that would make Shepard and for that matter Tali just as guilty as Jacob. They work with Cerberus, they only tolerate as much as they see appropriate and do so because they still have a moral compass apparent to the audience.

[Lividity Jones]

Phil725 wrote...

Lividity Jones wrote...

I think she was well within her rights to give a sharp glare to someone who so casually drops the one thing that brought genocide down on her people.

But that's just me.

Just to be clear, I'm not arguing against the quarian death glare, she was well within her rights there.  I'm more against her whole antagonization of Jacob when he's just trying to be nice and smooth things over.

But the glare is the extent of her antagonization towards Jacob...

Unless your counting the fact that she detests being on a Cerberus-crewed ship. I think that's perfectly reasonable.