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[uhdnrt]

Purification- wrote...
Ahhhh, too much information to me right now! Going to see it tommorow.
This form is useless without her command.

So go easy with me, i'm merely a Collector Drone!

No worries.  You just happened on a topic of Nerdom I am well versed in.  Pulling an all nighter (have a funeral to go to at 8am tomorrow, and it is past 4:30 am right now), so back to ME for.  On my current replay, just got to the Haestrom mission.  Time to recruit Tali and get me a smexy geth rifle.
Top Tali!

Modifié par uhdnrt, 29 juillet 2010 - 08:32 .

[Phil725]

ME1 Tali

[Purification-]

Right! Im looking forward to get that rifle too.
Well, good night folk. Sleep well! You too Red. See you later guys.
Tali'Zorah vas Normandy ../../../images/forum/emoticons/heart.png
She'll assume direct control on all of us brothers and sisters... Just embrace the darkness! - Purification-
Keelah Se'lai

[Purification-]

Phil725 wrote...



ME1 Tali

*laughs*
Tali'Zorah vas Normandy - Making hidden jokes since 2180.

[Mentatzoee]

Hi everyone.

I've been a lurker of this thread for a while, and even if I'm not really sure about what has made me de-lurk (I'm pretty sure the page count has something to do with it) there's something about Tali and quarians in general I'd like to discuss with you all.



First (I somehow feel the moral obligation to post this "disclaimer"), I'm pretty sure you've discussed this before, but I just can't remember what were the thoughts about it! (I know I could have used the search -heck, I could even have googled it!-, but it's not as fun as reading the discussion on live!).



There's something that bothers me about the quarian immune system.

What is so wrong about it that it can't be fixed? As soon as I start to think about it, the example of human AIDS comes to my mind. I'm aware it's not the same origin, but it leads to a similar situation, the lack of immune cells and therefore lack of immune strength.

People who's got AIDS, and doctors who attempt to cure it, know where do they have to aim to reach for a possible cure.

There are also plenty of autoimmune diseases that we've been able to discover and treat.

We humans are definitely NOT considered as the most medically advanced species of the ME'verse, yet we have been able to discover what was wrong within the immune system of these certain individuals and fix it (with more or less success), and all we had to do was to test and try.



It looks to me like all that quarians have done is isolate themselves, rather than actually seeking a cure for whatever they had. Like it happens when certain addicts are blamed, they claim to "be like this", I've got the impression that quarians might be somewhat proud of "being like this".



I might understand why other species hadn't helped them, like the Hanar are helping the Drell, due to a certain resentment because of the Geth. I wouldn't personally approve it, but that's a whole different matter (based in pure speculation).



So... Well. To sum up, my points are:

Even within the lack of knowledge we've got of quarian (and turian ) physiology, what is really wrong about their immune systems? Are they lacking a concrete antibody?

This leads me to my second point, if they know what's wrong with them, why don't they try to fix it, or get someone to fix it for them? (I'm pretty sure Shepard would mobilize the whole mankind to get a cure for Tali). If they lack something or have it in a really low concentration, why don't they replicate it and have it as a medicine?

And finally, in case they didn't know what was really wrong (which I doubt, because this would be a really really good thing to discover, and if they hadn't the right specialist, I'm pretty sure that knowledge related to it would be a very valuable "gift" to bring from a Pilgrimage), why haven't they done anything about it?



And that's pretty much it



Of course, I'm aware the suits are cool and a great addition when it comes to giving personality and distinction to a race, but... You know.

[Phil725]

Mentatzoee wrote...
*bigsnip*

The main reason that I've seen that causes problems with the quarian immune system is the way they evolved on Rannoch.  Instead of reacting to something and destroying it like our immune systems do, theirs adapts to it.  I believe this is somehow linked with Rannoch lacking insects, and the large animals and plant life developing a symbiotic relationship.  As long as they stayed on Rannoch, there was no problem.  The adaptive immune systems had built up antibodies to anything they would possibly come in contact with.  Even traveling to other planets, we're led to believe that their immune systems were weaker than other races, but at least manageable, due to antibodies being built up throughout life.

Then the Morning War happens, and all of a sudden, those weak, but adaptive immune systems don't get anything to adapt to.  They spend their entire lives on sterilized ships and in envirosuits that block any exposure.  Thus, their immune systems weaken through the generations, until we get to where we are in the ME series.

The cure to their immune systems is to live normally and adapt over time, its probably why they haven't put forth a huge scientific effort in the past.  Its just the way quarians are.  They theoretically could still keep their immune systems strong, but they don't have the resources or ability to strengthen them while living on the flotilla and scraping by as is.  The cure now is to get Rannoch back, and readapt.

[Leftnt Sharpe]

Phil725 wrote...

Mentatzoee wrote...
*bigsnip*

The main reason that I've seen that causes problems with the quarian immune system is the way they evolved on Rannoch.  Instead of reacting to something and destroying it like our immune systems do, theirs adapts to it.  I believe this is somehow linked with Rannoch lacking insects, and the large animals and plant life developing a symbiotic relationship.  As long as they stayed on Rannoch, there was no problem.  The adaptive immune systems had built up antibodies to anything they would possibly come in contact with.  Even traveling to other planets, we're led to believe that their immune systems were weaker than other races, but at least manageable, due to antibodies being built up throughout life.

Then the Morning War happens, and all of a sudden, those weak, but adaptive immune systems don't get anything to adapt to.  They spend their entire lives on sterilized ships and in envirosuits that block any exposure.  Thus, their immune systems weaken through the generations, until we get to where we are in the ME series.

The cure to their immune systems is to live normally and adapt over time, its probably why they haven't put forth a huge scientific effort in the past.  Its just the way quarians are.  They theoretically could still keep their immune systems strong, but they don't have the resources or ability to strengthen them while living on the flotilla and scraping by as is.  The cure now is to get Rannoch back, and readapt.

Also no other species seems to care enough about the Quarians to undertake a scientific project to improve their immune systems back to pre-morning war levels. Compared with bringing back to life a charred and mangled corpse , complete with memories, improving the Quarian immune system seems relatively simple.

Modifié par Leftnt Sharpe, 29 juillet 2010 - 10:50 .

[Someone With Mass]

Ah, one tiny insect could change so much...

[Mentatzoee]

Even if they were made in a way that only the contact with a living environment (this is what I understand from an adaptive immune system) could get them better, I still can't understand how could they prefer to wait for the opportunity of going back to Rannoch, being conscious that after the Geth War it wouldn't be a matter of or (or two) generations.
Being this the case, I'd even say they didn't care about crossing the point of no return, aware that the ability of establishing symbiotic links with other species (if that's the case) would weaken with time. Anyway, and returning to one of my principal mind-breakers, what do they get from that bound that makes them stronger to external aggressions? Is it some kind of chemical compound or what?
(and why couldn't they just replicate it?)
Of course, the lack of resources might have made complicated bringing any alive specimen, even if it was for study, not to talk about reproducing their ecosystem. By the time I'm writing these lines I'm actually realizing that they _must_ have some kind of live plant or animal in order to process food, even if they make it into tasteless paste afterwards. Why couldn't they study their relationship with them in order to learn about it?

I'm sure it would be an expensive project, both in terms of resources (or time) and work (or time) but... How could it be any better to just wait until the Geth got bored of their home-world than actually doing something to assure their offspring an easier and filler existence?

Edit:

Leftnt Sharpe wrote...
Also no other species seems to care enough about the Quarians to undertake a scientific project to improve their immune systems back to pre-morning war levels. Compared with bringing back to life a charred and mangled corpse , complete with memories, improving the Quarian immune system seems relatively simple.

Isn't it? Not to talk about trying to make a snake drell being able to almost breath under water.
It doesn't have to be -so- complicated.

Modifié par Mentatzoee, 29 juillet 2010 - 11:02 .

[Mazder]

Hey everyone...is there a topic going on?...if so what is it?

[CroGamer002]

Wasn't last The Official Migrant Fleet of Tali'Zorah Fans was 4.0?

[Phil725]

Mentatzoee wrote...

Even if they were made in a way that only the contact with a living environment (this is what I understand from an adaptive immune system) could get them better, I still can't understand how could they prefer to wait for the opportunity of going back to Rannoch, being conscious that after the Geth War it wouldn't be a matter of or (or two) generations.

I doubt that's the only way that they could better, Tali mentions gene therapy at some point, and I'm sure there are other potential scientific efforts that could aid their immune systems.  The problem is that its just not an option for them in their current state.  They would love to be able to work on things like strengthening their immune systems, but stuff like keeping the flotilla operational require all of their resources.  Keep in mind, the quarians only have 17 million people.  The fact that they can maintain the largest fleet in the galaxy without a permanent home is a feat in itself.

Mentatzoee wrote...

Being this the case, I'd even say they didn't care about crossing the point of no return, aware that the ability of establishing symbiotic links with other species (if that's the case) would weaken with time. Anyway, and returning to one of my principal mind-breakers, what do they get from that bound that makes them stronger to external aggressions? Is it some kind of chemical compound or what?
(and why couldn't they just replicate it?)
Of course, the lack of resources might have made complicated bringing any alive specimen, even if it was for study, not to talk about reproducing their ecosystem. By the time I'm writing these lines I'm actually realizing that they _must_ have some kind of live plant or animal in order to process food, even if they make it into tasteless paste afterwards. Why couldn't they study their relationship with them in order to learn about it?

I'm sure it would be an expensive project, both in terms of resources (or time) and work (or time) but... How could it be any better to just wait until the Geth got bored of their home-world than actually doing something to assure their offspring an easier and filler existence?

While I don't fully understand the intricacies of the quarian immune system (if they even exist, with Bioware not giving us a ton of details,) it all goes back to feasibility from a resource perspective.  Live animal, plant, speck of dust, I don't think the what is that important to the quarians adaptive immune systems as the process of adapting and strengthening itself in general is.  They didn't choose to let their immune systems wither, they just didn't have the ability to keep them strong, and once they crossed some line where people were getting sick constantly, I assume they moved to the suits full time, completing the annihilation of any immune system left.

As far as reclaiming Rannoch, they are hardly sitting around doing nothing.  They have a little under a century left while the flotilla is a feasible option, and they are doing everything in their power to get their homeworld back.   This leads to desperate and bad ideas like Rael's Xen's and Gerrel's of course, but their doing something.

[Phil725]

Mesina2 wrote...

Wasn't last The Official Migrant Fleet of Tali'Zorah Fans was 4.0?

The name is a little messed up due to the name change in the last thread.  This is the 5th thread overall, but the second one under this name.

[Mazder]

Mesina2 wrote...

Wasn't last The Official Migrant Fleet of Tali'Zorah Fans was 4.0?

Actually i think that was the Tali'Zorah fan club that was @ 4.0...but the preistly moved it and remade it into the Migrant fleet of Tali'Zorah fans...and this is the second iteration of that revamping...making it the 2.0 of that....

[Mazder]

Phil725 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Wasn't last The Official Migrant Fleet of Tali'Zorah Fans was 4.0?

The name is a little messed up due to the name change in the last thread.  This is the 5th thread overall, but the second one under this name.

you said it way simpler than i did...

[CroGamer002]

PARAGON COLONIST WAR HERO MARIO SHEPARD SUPPORTS TALI!

Modifié par Mesina2, 29 juillet 2010 - 11:19 .

[Someone With Mass]

mrsph wrote...

So since Tali and Garrus helped take down Sovereign, would that mean Harbinger also has extensive info on those two? Or would it just not care about two aliens?

"Quarian; considered due to cybernetic augmentation, weakened immune system too debilitating.”

“Turian; you are considered...too primitive.”


I guess he doesn't care.
 
 

[Phil725]

mrsph wrote...

So since Tali and Garrus helped take down Sovereign, would that mean Harbinger also has extensive info on those two? Or would it just not care about two aliens?

Shep seems to get all of the credit, though I assume the reapers know at least something about the others.  His interaction with the others when he's assuming direct control shows he at least knows about a quarian and a krogan and the rest.

[Mentatzoee]

Phil725 wrote...

I doubt that's the only way that they could better, Tali mentions gene therapy at some point, and I'm sure there are other potential scientific efforts that could aid their immune systems.  The problem is that its just not an option for them in their current state.  They would love to be able to work on things like strengthening their immune systems, but stuff like keeping the flotilla operational require all of their resources.  Keep in mind, the quarians only have 17 million people.  The fact that they can maintain the largest fleet in the galaxy without a permanent home is a feat in itself.

Of course, no one doubts they're already doing a lot of work to simply preserve their existence. Even though, what you just said made me wonder about why, being them about the best race of the ME'verse at engineering, do they have to put about all their efforts in just keeping their Fleet going and not in investigating new ways for the Fleet to keep itself so they could gain more time to invest with something else. If all the efforts they put in "bringing back" the Geth they would have been studying themselves maybe they wouldn't have to consider going back to Rannoch as the only option.

I don't mean with anything I say that they aren't doing anything at any of the things I mention, but when I compare them with mankind, and I see how we're able to get almost self sufficient ships (in comparison) with half of the ability and maybe twice the resources I start wondering about it.
Of course, all I'm saying is based in the subjective impression I've got from the way Tali talks about it, and what I've been able to understand from the different official sources (books and the like), but I have to say I've never given quarians such a deep thought as I am right now. It was more of a background process than an actual ponder.

Phil725 wrote...

While I don't fully understand the intricacies of the quarian immune system (if they even exist, with Bioware not giving us a ton of details,) it all goes back to feasibility from a resource perspective.  Live animal, plant, speck of dust, I don't think the what is that important to the quarians adaptive immune systems as the process of adapting and strengthening itself in general is.  They didn't choose to let their immune systems wither, they just didn't have the ability to keep them strong, and once they crossed some line where people were getting sick constantly, I assume they moved to the suits full time, completing the annihilation of any immune system left.

As far as reclaiming Rannoch, they are hardly sitting around doing nothing.  They have a little under a century left while the flotilla is a feasible option, and they are doing everything in their power to get their homeworld back.   This leads to desperate and bad ideas like Rael's Xen's and Gerrel's of course, but their doing something.

Somewhat quoting what I've said above, I didn't mean to say they're sitting around doing anything. I tried to express that in comparison of what it would be necessary, it felt like they were being passive, or that, maybe because of their seclusion and all that seclusion can do to a society, they were taking a path that could lead them to a dead end, to say the least.

If I understood it well, and you're complaining about the lack of details when it comes to the biology of the races of ME, I definitely support that. This is what, in theory, makes the difference between fantasy and sci-fi, the latter is supposed to be based on facts and "science", no matter how fictional it can be. If you give us just a draft of how things are, how are we supposed to be able to conjecture?
(Wait, maybe we _can_ conjecture because of the lack of details. Anyway, a longer codex biology entry would be nice)

[Phil725]

Mentatzoee wrote...
*snip*
Of course, no one doubts they're already doing a lot of work to simply preserve their existence. Even though, what you just said made me wonder about why, being them about the best race of the ME'verse at engineering, do they have to put about all their efforts in just keeping their Fleet going and not in investigating new ways for the Fleet to keep itself so they could gain more time to invest with something else. If all the efforts they put in "bringing back" the Geth they would have been studying themselves maybe they wouldn't have to consider going back to Rannoch as the only option.

I don't mean with anything I say that they aren't doing anything at any of the things I mention, but when I compare them with mankind, and I see how we're able to get almost self sufficient ships (in comparison) with half of the ability and maybe twice the resources I start wondering about it.
Of course, all I'm saying is based in the subjective impression I've got from the way Tali talks about it, and what I've been able to understand from the different official sources (books and the like), but I have to say I've never given quarians such a deep thought as I am right now. It was more of a background process than an actual ponder.

Its an interesting point that I hadn't considered before.  I would assume the reason again goes back to the fact that its just not something they have the ability to work on.  Something like that seems like it would take years to actually come up with some actual results, and in that time, you still need to travel throughout the galaxy finding food for 17 million people, and keeping 300 year old space ships running at FTL speed with basically duct tape holding them together.  It also seems to overlap with the problem that they can't seem to obtain state of the art ships.  The fleet consists of junkers that they buy from other races and fix up.  Upgrading the fleet to a state of the art level just isn't an option.  I suspect they may have looked into that a good amount in the past, since Ascension states that even with their prowess, maintaining the flotilla for another century isn't going to happen, so the clock is ticking, but their situation complicates things greatly.

Mentatzoee wrote...

Somewhat quoting what I've said above, I didn't mean to say they're sitting around doing anything. I tried to express that in comparison of what it would be necessary, it felt like they were being passive, or that, maybe because of their seclusion and all that seclusion can do to a society, they were taking a path that could lead them to a dead end, to say the least.

If I understood it well, and you're complaining about the lack of details when it comes to the biology of the races of ME, I definitely support that. This is what, in theory, makes the difference between fantasy and sci-fi, the latter is supposed to be based on facts and "science", no matter how fictional it can be. If you give us just a draft of how things are, how are we supposed to be able to conjecture?
(Wait, maybe we _can_ conjecture because of the lack of details. Anyway, a longer codex biology entry would be nice)

I don't think passiveness or seclusion are the cause of any of their problems.  They didn't seem to make the seclusion choice themselves as much as the galaxy just turned its backs on their race as a whole.  They still have the pilgrimages which require every member of the flotilla to not be completely secluded, and go out into the galaxy to find something of potential use.  As far as a long term solution, I'm sure they are putting as much effort into it as they can realistically afford to, but obviously the situation is limiting the results greatly.  Luckily we now have the olive branch in Legion.

As far as speculating on quarian biology, I'll leave that to people with actual scientific knowledge, and stick to reiterating things said by smart people to avoid embarassing myself

[Mentatzoee]

I really really really want to keep with this conversation, but I've got to go!



One of the greatest things about having "opposed" (if we can call them like that) points of view is that we've got that spark that helps developing arguments! (somehow I thought that the word "argument" only had a pejorative meaning, but it looks like it can be used for "elements of a discussion")



Note: And only with this, I think I'm starting to appreciate Tali a bit more!

I still want Kal'Reegar in my squad, though. Heh.

[Phil725]

Mentatzoee wrote...

I really really really want to keep with this conversation, but I've got to go!

One of the greatest things about having "opposed" (if we can call them like that) points of view is that we've got that spark that helps developing arguments! (somehow I thought that the word "argument" only had a pejorative meaning, but it looks like it can be used for "elements of a discussion")

Note: And only with this, I think I'm starting to appreciate Tali a bit more!
I still want Kal'Reegar in my squad, though. Heh.

I would call this more of a regular discussion than an argument, since we're more exploring aspects of the game than defending personal viewpoints.  Remember the page and you can bring up the discussion at a later time if you want to, we're usually in need of something on topic to talk about.

[Tairis Deamhan]

The quarian immune system is very much 'plot controlled', so I don't think Bioware has actually gotten THAT detailed with it.



Tali takes immuno boosters before visiting Shepard, yet describes the reaction her body has to foreign material as an extreme immune system reaction. Boosting the immune system would make this worse, not better.



Kal'Reeger has his suit punctured and then is pumped full of anti-biotics, gets a minor 'infection'. (Even though they dont actually get the infections). Despite the fact that you don't see a single bit of organic life on your mission on the irradiated planet, so what is he even reacting to?



The way its actually described by Tali, it's like the quarians are literally allergic to everything. But they have an adaptive immune system... so why exactly did they start needing the suits? They have plants and other quarians on their ships, ergo on the Flotilla their immune systems should have adapted to that enviroment. Yet when quarians link suits they both get sick.

[Pacifien]

hangmans tree wrote...
Heres a quarian, my take

I approve.