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[nitefyre410]

cannedcream wrote...

Phil725 wrote...

This is the assumption that everyone makes.  Where do we learn that children are taught to hate the geth?  Tali is the most extreme example, an admiral father who hates the geth, with a mom that died because of their position in life.  She's in the 99 percentile for geth hating reasons.

While they may not be taught to 'hate' the geth, it's still a part of their history and so it stands to reason that learn of it in school. And if I were to tell you that once we all used to live in this wonderful place that you'll never get to see because this group drove us out, wouldn't you start to hate that group even if you've never met them?
In fact, there would probably be that hate BECAUSE you've never met them.

 

You know I could really  drive that point home for you CC but once again  if I did it cause the thread to exploded So I try  this route. 


@ Phil   Okay we had this talk  pages back  but I think we are having out disconnects is  the Types of the hate that  were are talking about.   Yes Types... 


The type of hate and prejudice the Quarians now have  for the Geth is institutionalized. They hate because that is all the now at this point.  The ones that remember a time before the  War a long dead so all you have left are the ones that remember the War and after.  They teach that to their children and it carries to them. So the Children grow with a demonized image of the Geth because that is only image they have.  Where it is a true geth  or heretic, they  don't distinguish between the two. 

[cannedcream]

Collider wrote...

Kind of makes me wonder what's in store for Shepard and Tali. Would they live on Rannoch? What if Rannoch isn't reclaimed? Does the player have a direct choice, similar to Dragon Age? What if the player wants their Shepard to stay in the Alliance and keep on fighting?

That raises the question of; where does Tali's loyalty to her people end and her loyalty/love to Shepard begin?

The fact seems to be that sooner or later she's going to have to choose between the two, either going back to her people or spending her life with Shepard. While, yes, it is possible to have both. Anyone here could think up a situation where it would work, for my money I just don't think it would be practical or likely.

Well, whatever might happen, if and when the decision comes, I'm leaving it up to Tali. I just want her to be happy, even if it's not with Shepard (me).

[Snazzy Penguin]

cannedcream wrote...

That raises the question of; where does Tali's loyalty to her people end and her loyalty/love to Shepard begin?

The fact seems to be that sooner or later she's going to have to choose between the two, either going back to her people or spending her life with Shepard. While, yes, it is possible to have both. Anyone here could think up a situation where it would work, for my money I just don't think it would be practical or likely.

Well, whatever might happen, if and when the decision comes, I'm leaving it up to Tali. I just want her to be happy, even if it's not with Shepard (me).

I'm hoping for a type of "hapily ever after" ending in ME3 for Shepard and his LI (which my case would be Tali)

I'm betting the ME3 their relationship will be tested, with either a Charm or Intimidate choice being the one that keeps everyone happy. and there will be two - three possible outcomes to the test.

Modifié par Snazzy Penguin, 06 août 2010 - 06:40 .

[cannedcream]

Phil725 wrote...

You realize you made the same assumption that I said everyone makes in my post right?

I just don't see how we know that the 'who' is important to the quarians.  They know that they lost Rannoch because of the Morning War, and that they can't go back now until the geth are dealt with.  That alone is why the quarians are against the geth now.  Because they're standing in their way.  It isn't deep seeded hatred that will linger on for generations.  Its the necessity of now.  They need a home, and the geth are living in theirs.

What we think of the Morning War is a ****storm topic here, I imagine its quite the conversation among quarians.

Okay, so you're telling me that if I said to you in all honesty that there is this great place that is filled with the history of your people and it's where you belong, but you can NEVER EVER go there because of this one guy, that you wouldn't feel at least a little anger towards that person?
Can you in all honesty say that?

[Collider]

cannedcream wrote...

Collider wrote...

Kind of makes me wonder what's in store for Shepard and Tali. Would they live on Rannoch? What if Rannoch isn't reclaimed? Does the player have a direct choice, similar to Dragon Age? What if the player wants their Shepard to stay in the Alliance and keep on fighting?

That raises the question of; where does Tali's loyalty to her people end and her loyalty/love to Shepard begin?

She is going to prioritize her people always. Of course, it's important to note that the Admiralty Board's wishes are obviously not always inline to what she actually thinks is good for her people. So in other words, she's loyal to her people, not her government.

The fact seems to be that sooner or later she's going to have to choose between the two, either going back to her people or spending her life with Shepard. While, yes, it is possible to have both. Anyone here could think up a situation where it would work, for my money I just don't think it would be practical or likely.

Well, whatever might happen, if and when the decision comes, I'm leaving it up to Tali. I just want her to be happy, even if it's not with Shepard (me).

Sounds good.

[Kira Shepard]

cannedcream wrote...

Collider wrote...

Kind of makes me wonder what's in store for Shepard and Tali. Would they live on Rannoch? What if Rannoch isn't reclaimed? Does the player have a direct choice, similar to Dragon Age? What if the player wants their Shepard to stay in the Alliance and keep on fighting?

That raises the question of; where does Tali's loyalty to her people end and her loyalty/love to Shepard begin?

The fact seems to be that sooner or later she's going to have to choose between the two, either going back to her people or spending her life with Shepard. While, yes, it is possible to have both. Anyone here could think up a situation where it would work, for my money I just don't think it would be practical or likely.

Well, whatever might happen, if and when the decision comes, I'm leaving it up to Tali. I just want her to be happy, even if it's not with Shepard (me).

I see a way. provided they exiled her she has only has shepard left. her people turned their collective backs on her, her father thought it more important to give her orders with his dieing breath instead of those few words she wanted to hear from him.
As she said "You were the only shelter I had from that storm shepard." shepard might be the only one who appears to fully papriciate and care about her with no strings attatched. That's what makes thier romance kind of beautiful to me. despite the risks and differences they overcome that and love each other unconditionally.

[Phil725]

Collider wrote...

Replace "geth bastards" with another race and most people would think it's an ignorant and racist statement. The Geth who drove the Quarians away from the homeworld are the Geth, and they were also the True Geth. Even though some Quarians thought they brought it upon themselves, there's still the matter that the Quarians are currently suffering impoverished lives on the Flotilla. The Quarians who tried to shut down the Geth are no longer alive. So the Quarians have to be cursed with the consequences of actions that they themselves - their generation - had not actually done. That itself is going to breed some resentment.

It will breed resentment, but how do we know that the resentment isn't aimed majorily on the people who decided that they needed a synthetic army?  Or the people that thought trying to shut them down was the best move.

With comments made about the geth, you have to factor in that the heretics are a completely different race.  They made it very clear that every one of them was the same.  The hate that is levied on the geth that we see in game is because they're attacking organics today, not hate because the quarian ancestors were driven out 300 years ago.

Collider wrote...

Which many Quarians seem to be. Even though Legion had been peaceful and helped Shepard out, Tali still made it out that working with a Geth was a favor to Shepard, instead of something she'd normally do, despite Legion being allied.

I never said the whole thing would be without distrust and other potential problems.  Tali working with a geth is a big step for her, the true geth are new to her.  The key?  She does work just fine with Legion eventually, just a little Shep intervention needed at a rocky part.  Substitute Tali/Legion for the quarians/true geth in ME3, and you have a repeat.  People will initially be distrustful, and may need some urging, but will eventually be just fine.  Tali accepts now that there are different types of geth, I see no reason the rest of the quarians (barring a minority dissention,) won't.

Collider wrote...

I believe it's somewhere in the game that children are taught to fear the Geth or dislike them. Not sure where exactly, but I don't think I'm pulling this out of thin air.
-
I don't ever remember Shala giving her opinion on the geth.

Shala mentions that the geth are their children.  While I don't recall if she says more, that alone tells me that she isn't harboring hate for them.

I don't recall the line about children being taught hate at all.  If true, that kind of spits in the face of my theory.

[Collider]

Snazzy Penguin wrote...

cannedcream wrote...

That raises the question of; where does Tali's loyalty to her people end and her loyalty/love to Shepard begin?

The fact seems to be that sooner or later she's going to have to choose between the two, either going back to her people or spending her life with Shepard. While, yes, it is possible to have both. Anyone here could think up a situation where it would work, for my money I just don't think it would be practical or likely.

Well, whatever might happen, if and when the decision comes, I'm leaving it up to Tali. I just want her to be happy, even if it's not with Shepard (me).

I'm hoping for a type of "hapily ever after" ending in ME3 for Shepard and his LI (which my case would be Tali)

I'm betting the ME3 their relationship will be tested, with either a Charm or Intimidate choice being the one that keeps everyone happy.

That sounds horrible. Considering how broken the charm/intimidate system is. Keep persuasion out of the romances - or at least not as you describe.

[cannedcream]

Collider wrote...

Sounds good.

. . . I still hope she picks Shepard, though. . .

[Phil725]

Collider wrote...
*snip*
This would be easier to believe if Tali did not have a thing against AI.

And it never stands in her way, that's the important part.  She works with EDI, she works with Legion.  People confuse distrust/dislike with irrational hate.

[cannedcream]

Collider wrote...

That sounds horrible. Considering how broken the charm/intimidate system is. Keep persuasion out of the romances - or at least not as you describe.

I have to agree with that.

It seems a little too cheap have the fate of Shepard's happy ending hanging in the balance of whether or not you've used one persuasion option enough times.

[Phil725]

nitefyre410 wrote...
*snip*

@ Phil   Okay we had this talk  pages back  but I think we are having out disconnects is  the Types of the hate that  were are talking about.   Yes Types... 


The type of hate and prejudice the Quarians now have  for the Geth is institutionalized. They hate because that is all the now at this point.  The ones that remember a time before the  War a long dead so all you have left are the ones that remember the War and after.  They teach that to their children and it carries to them. So the Children grow with a demonized image of the Geth because that is only image they have.  Where it is a true geth  or heretic, they  don't distinguish between the two. 

Which is a view bred out of ignorance.  Ask the quarians in ME2 what they think of peace with the group of robots that's been attacking organics for the last 50 years and you get what you see in ME2.

Ask them what they think of this completely new race, and the quarians are forced to take a second look.  Imagine fighting an enemy, then realizing that the enemy you were fighting is dead.  The only people left on the other side look like your enemy, but they have been sitting isolated since the start, and they just want peace.

[J4N3_M3]

Good morning Migrant Fleet, thanks for all your posts on what Tali means to you. I have to admit, you've been all a bunch of overly horny creepers to me but those posts actually had me change my mind. You guys are cool and I'm glad my Shep's little sis has such a strong guy at her side. *wipes away tear*

It was great to read all of it and I appreciate your honesty. Now I'll go back to lurking.

[Kira Shepard]

J4N3_M3 wrote...

Good morning Migrant Fleet, thanks for all your posts on what Tali means to you. I have to admit, you've been all a bunch of overly horny creepers to me but those posts actually had me change my mind. You guys are cool and I'm glad my Shep's little sis has such a strong guy at her side. *wipes away tear*
It was great to read all of it and I appreciate your honesty. Now I'll go back to lurking.

Well thanks for your support.

[Snazzy Penguin]

Collider wrote...

That sounds horrible. Considering how broken the charm/intimidate system is. Keep persuasion out of the romances - or at least not as you describe.

I think I misspoke.

What I meant was that I'm speculating in ME3, Shep's relationship with his LI will be tested, somehow, with two endings clear that either the LI and Shep witll stay together or break up due to some conflict, with a third choice (done either through a sequence of missions, etc) resulting in everyone being happy with the outcome.

My main point was that I'm optimistic for a "Happily Ever After" ending in ME3.

[Phil725]

cannedcream wrote...
*snip*
Okay, so you're telling me that if I said to you in all honesty that there is this great place that is filled with the history of your people and it's where you belong, but you can NEVER EVER go there because of this one guy, that you wouldn't feel at least a little anger towards that person?
Can you in all honesty say that?

Why not direct anger at the quarian ancestors?  Is my question.  Who is responsible for the Morning War is a key factor towards feelings on the geth. 

As far as not being able to go back, that's exactly why I say there is hate for the geth now.  Remove that feeling of never going back, and you have no more reason to hate that person you mention.

[RiptideX1090]

Phil725 wrote...

Collider wrote...
*snip*
This would be easier to believe if Tali did not have a thing against AI.

And it never stands in her way, that's the important part.  She works with EDI, she works with Legion.  People confuse distrust/dislike with irrational hate.

I honestly don't think the quarians would be against peace as a whole, or that most of them even would hold a grudge or be openly hostile to the geth.

Anyone in here ever gotten in fights?

Yeah, you beat eachother senseless, but more often than not, you later realize how stupid you both were. You either shake hands and start over, or let it fester.

Some of the closest people I've known are people whose noses I broke.

You just have to man up and get over yourselves.

And governments and peoples do this all the time too. I doubt it will be a big issue. All Shepard has to do is get the Admirals and the geth to work out a place to start.

[Collider]

It will breed resentment, but how do we know that the resentment isn't aimed majorily on the people who decided that they needed a synthetic army? Or the people that thought trying to shut them down was the best move.

Because we don't actually see this. We see hate towards the Geth, but only Korris is openly hateful or disliking towards those who shut down the Geth in the first place. Based upon that, I'd think dislike towards the Geth is more likely.

With comments made about the geth, you have to factor in that the heretics are a completely different race. They made it very clear that every one of them was the same. The hate that is levied on the geth that we see in game is because they're attacking organics today, not hate because the quarian ancestors were driven out 300 years ago.

I really doubt that. Tali came with prejudice against Geth. Somehow I don't think she's going to start hating Geth when she did not simply because they started attacking a human colony.

I never said the whole thing would be without distrust and other potential problems. Tali working with a geth is a big step for her, the true geth are new to her. The key? She does work just fine with Legion eventually, just a little Shep intervention needed at a rocky part. Substitute Tali/Legion for the quarians/true geth in ME3, and you have a repeat. People will initially be distrustful, and may need some urging, but will eventually be just fine. Tali accepts now that there are different types of geth, I see no reason the rest of the quarians (barring a minority dissention,) won't.

What exactly are we arguing here? My entire point was that I do not see the dislike at the Geth disappearing over night - it's going to linger to some amount.

I don't recall the line about children being taught hate at all. If true, that kind of spits in the face of my theory.

It's either in one of Legion's conversations, the codex, or in the loyalty missions. It's hard to imagine me randomly thinking this up instead of it genuinely being in the game. Maybe someone else will know where exactly.

[cannedcream]

J4N3_M3 wrote...

Good morning Migrant Fleet, thanks for all your posts on what Tali means to you. I have to admit, you've been all a bunch of overly horny creepers to me but those posts actually had me change my mind. You guys are cool and I'm glad my Shep's little sis has such a strong guy at her side. *wipes away tear*
It was great to read all of it and I appreciate your honesty. Now I'll go back to lurking.

Thanks Jay, . . . I think. . .

[Collider]

Phil725 wrote...

Collider wrote...
*snip*
This would be easier to believe if Tali did not have a thing against AI.

And it never stands in her way, that's the important part.  She works with EDI, she works with Legion.  People confuse distrust/dislike with irrational hate.

I understand that it doesn't get in her way. However, my point was that there's still dislike, even if there's no actual action against the AI, or against the Geth.

[cannedcream]

Phil725 wrote...


Why not direct anger at the quarian ancestors?  Is my question.  Who is responsible for the Morning War is a key factor towards feelings on the geth. 

As far as not being able to go back, that's exactly why I say there is hate for the geth now.  Remove that feeling of never going back, and you have no more reason to hate that person you mention.

I'm not entirely sure why we've been butting heads since we seem to share the same view. . .

[Megumeru]

nitefyre410 wrote...

cannedcream wrote...

Megumeru wrote...

took a nap for 3-4 hours and the thread jumped 10-20 pages o_0

Then went through a hell load of character death discussion, suits, lesbian quarians, and...awh whatever...

Ideas for me to write something? Anyone? Preferably d'aww material...before I decide to continue my ME2 playthrough

That's the Tali thread for ya! Never a dull moment.

 

Lets not go back over  that, I concede  to will of the Thread for the good thread. Doesn't mean I'm happy about it  <_<

But I enjoy writing stories or mini fics about things Tali-related.

I did draw myself a line not to touch character death though...


Give me a minute while I try to soak up the topic, then discuss away.

[Collider]

Snazzy Penguin wrote...

Collider wrote...

That sounds horrible. Considering how broken the charm/intimidate system is. Keep persuasion out of the romances - or at least not as you describe.

I think I misspoke.

What I meant was that I'm speculating in ME3, Shep's relationship with his LI will be tested, somehow, with two endings clear that either the LI and Shep witll stay together or break up due to some conflict, with a third choice (done either through a sequence of missions, etc) resulting in everyone being happy with the outcome.

My main point was that I'm optimistic for a "Happily Ever After" ending in ME3.

I know, I just don't like the idea of having to use charm or intimidate for a happy ending, lol.

[Snazzy Penguin]

Collider wrote...

Snazzy Penguin wrote...

Collider wrote...

That sounds horrible. Considering how broken the charm/intimidate system is. Keep persuasion out of the romances - or at least not as you describe.

I think I misspoke.

What I meant was that I'm speculating in ME3, Shep's relationship with his LI will be tested, somehow, with two endings clear that either the LI and Shep witll stay together or break up due to some conflict, with a third choice (done either through a sequence of missions, etc) resulting in everyone being happy with the outcome.

My main point was that I'm optimistic for a "Happily Ever After" ending in ME3.

I know, I just don't like the idea of having to use charm or intimidate for a happy ending, lol.

I have to totally agree, I sent across the completely wrong message there lol.